NPR

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Serial offenders.

Is the good prof's criticism directed at the assessment as conducted by the on-field and Welsh backoffice medical staff, or at the HIA protocol/text/criteria it/themselves?

inactionman wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:38 pm Is the good prof's criticism directed at the assessment as conducted by the on-field and Welsh backoffice medical staff, or at the HIA protocol/text/criteria it/themselves?

I assume the first bit. What is clear is Francis should not have been back on the park.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:36 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Serial offenders.

..........ask George North!!!

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:36 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Serial offenders.

..........ask George North!!!

The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

SaintK wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:36 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Serial offenders.

..........ask George North!!!

I see what you did here.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I can't recall now but would his absence have resulted in the same 13 man farce Italy endured?

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I agree. All I’m wondering is whether in the protocols the HIA trumps any other signs of concussion. If that’s the case it all needs looking at.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:56 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I can't recall now but would his absence have resulted in the same 13 man farce Italy endured?

I don’t think so. Brown came on as sub and I don’t he was injured at any stage. Unless my attention wandered.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:58 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:56 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I can't recall now but would his absence have resulted in the same 13 man farce Italy endured?

I don’t think so. Brown came on as sub and I don’t he was injured at any stage. Unless my attention wandered.

Not that there was an excuse but might have been some motivation if it had been the case.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:57 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:48 pm The argument is that even if TF had legitimately passed the HIA he was clearly concussed and shouldn’t have gone back on. Can’t argue against that really looking at it now. I’ve no idea whether the HIA overrides anything else.

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I agree. All I’m wondering is whether in the protocols the HIA trumps any other signs of concussion. If that’s the case it all needs looking at.

The first part of a HIA is to check the video for signs of concussion, basically the list the Prof gives in the article. Francis should have automatically failed by the sounds of it before moving on to the off field assessment.

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:13 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:57 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

It really shouldn't, all the HIA does is check for signs of concussion. Thomas already showed those signs on the pitch, and the HIA should've been a formality.

I agree. All I’m wondering is whether in the protocols the HIA trumps any other signs of concussion. If that’s the case it all needs looking at.

The first part of a HIA is to check the video for signs of concussion, basically the list the Prof gives in the article. Francis should have automatically failed by the sounds of it before moving on to the off field assessment.

Thanks. Totally out of order then.

Here's the relevant part of the concussion protocol:

Players displaying obvious on-pitch signs of concussion (Criteria 1) are immediately and permanently removed from play, and the completion of the off-field screening tool is not required.

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:39 pm Here's the relevant part of the concussion protocol:

Players displaying obvious on-pitch signs of concussion (Criteria 1) are immediately and permanently removed from play, and the completion of the off-field screening tool is not required.

Even more totally out of order then. I wonder what happens next, something should.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:41 pm

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:39 pm Here's the relevant part of the concussion protocol:

Players displaying obvious on-pitch signs of concussion (Criteria 1) are immediately and permanently removed from play, and the completion of the off-field screening tool is not required.

Even more totally out of order then. I wonder what happens next, something should.

I suppose there is a chance no one saw it on TV but it would have been good if the WRU had put out a "hand up" statement after the event.

maybe they did?

Slick wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:41 pm

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:39 pm Here's the relevant part of the concussion protocol:

Even more totally out of order then. I wonder what happens next, something should.

I suppose there is a chance no one saw it on TV but it would have been good if the WRU had put out a "hand up" statement after the event.

maybe they did?

No link to it now but I’ve seen a video that clearly shows TF staggering about and using the post to steady himself. I’ve no idea who had access to it when.

Here is a replay



quite shocking he came back

I can't imagine the footage was missed. As soon as a player comes off for an HIA they're surely looking for the footage of the incident?

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:51 pm

Slick wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:41 pm

Even more totally out of order then. I wonder what happens next, something should.

I suppose there is a chance no one saw it on TV but it would have been good if the WRU had put out a "hand up" statement after the event.

maybe they did?

No link to it now but I’ve seen a video that clearly shows TF staggering about and using the post to steady himself. I’ve no idea who had access to it when.

Yup, seen the one above. Just wondering if the docs have instant access

Raggs wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:07 pm I can't imagine the footage was missed. As soon as a player comes off for an HIA they're surely looking for the footage of the incident?

Yes. I can't find the video but there was one with the IRFU doctor a few years ago and he went through the process. First thing they do is look at the video and any signs of concussion mean you don't go back on and start the return to play protocol.

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:11 pm

Raggs wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:07 pm I can't imagine the footage was missed. As soon as a player comes off for an HIA they're surely looking for the footage of the incident?

Yes. I can't find the video but there was one with the IRFU doctor a few years ago and he went through the process. First thing they do is look at the video and any signs of concussion mean you don't go back on and start the return to play protocol.

Yes, but I don’t remember the above clip being shown on TV - not saying it wasn’t just don’t remember it - and wondering if they just have access to the live TV feed

They surely can't have had access, otherwise they're either callously disingenuous or utterly incompetent.

He was all over the show.

I would have thought coaching staff would have access to all camera feeds and certainly in the case of a HIA. Makes zero sense for them not to have it.

Clearly Francis shouls have left the field and stayed off the field.
If he meets protocols then he is free to play
https://www.world.rugby/news/613856/how ... ocol-works

CM11 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:23 pm I would have thought coaching staff would have access to all camera feeds and certainly in the case of a HIA. Makes zero sense for them not to have it.

When Nowell was injured in the Italy England game the England doctor told the ref that they were still checking the video of the incident before deciding whether he needed an HIA, so I take it from that the doctors do have access to the video feeds.

Of course on that occasion the ref wrongly refused them the time to check and insisted that Nowell play on, only for him to be taken off a few minutes later once the video had been checked.

With regard to Wales’ treatment of its players, both Tomas Francis and Owen Watkin appeared to have been concussed in the same phase of play. Watkin was on the floor for some time and was bleeding from a cut on his forehead, and Francis was clearly knocked out. Both players were eventually taken off, but I was amazed that both were allowed back on. Watkin’s injury appeared to have been treated as just a cut, and he was not given an HIA, even though one was warranted. Francis was given an HIA, but shouldn’t have been as he was already clearly concussed.