NPR

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:39 am**

According to Sydney Morning Herald
https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/internat ... tory.shtml

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:41 am**

Borthwick to be manager through to end of RWC2023. Good. Keep your grubby fingers off Razor.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:02 am**

Considering they haven't actually had the meeting about this, I call BS.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:12 am**

I posted the link in the English rugby thread earlier today....

Georgina Robinson has been right about a couple of things.

Over the course of her career, that is.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:28 am**

Must be top secret cause the article seems to be in some weird sort of code.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:37 am**

average joe wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:28 am Must be top secret cause the article seems to be in some weird sort of code.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 5c3j9.html

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:42 am**

Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:41 am Borthwick to be manager through to end of RWC2023. Good. Keep your grubby fingers off Razor.

Borthwick is not the answer sadly.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:53 am**

ASMO wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:42 am
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:41 am Borthwick to be manager through to end of RWC2023. Good. Keep your grubby fingers off Razor.
Borthwick is not the answer sadly.

Who gives a shit? Watching BMac lead a transformation of England cricket is hard enough to watch. I just don't want to see Razor doing the same with the England rugby team.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:57 am**

Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:53 am
ASMO wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:42 am
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:41 am Borthwick to be manager through to end of RWC2023. Good. Keep your grubby fingers off Razor.
Borthwick is not the answer sadly.
Who gives a shit? Watching BMac lead a transformation of England cricket is hard enough to watch. I just don't want to see Razor doing the same with the England rugby team.

Borthwick as caretaker for 6N with Razor to take over once the season ends, and lead England to the WC and beyond would be an acceptable compromise.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:12 pm**

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:57 am
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:53 am
ASMO wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:42 am

Borthwick is not the answer sadly.
Who gives a shit? Watching BMac lead a transformation of England cricket is hard enough to watch. I just don't want to see Razor doing the same with the England rugby team.
Borthwick as caretaker for 6N with Razor to take over once the season ends, and lead England to the WC and beyond would be an acceptable compromise.

I'm not sure Borthwick would want to caretake just for 6N, not sure Tigers would release him from his contract either. You just know we are going to end up with Connor O'Shea and Cockers in temporary charge........................God forbid!

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:20 pm**

SaintK wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:12 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:57 am
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:53 am

Who gives a shit? Watching BMac lead a transformation of England cricket is hard enough to watch. I just don't want to see Razor doing the same with the England rugby team.
Borthwick as caretaker for 6N with Razor to take over once the season ends, and lead England to the WC and beyond would be an acceptable compromise.
I'm not sure Borthwick would want to caretake just for 6N, not sure Tigers would release him from his contract either. You just know we are going to end up with Connor O'Shea and Cockers in temporary charge........................God forbid!

I suspect you are right. Like others I don't think Borthwick is the right long-term answer, although he might be able to bring about some short-term improvements. The RFU agreeing a longer-term appointment with Razor would be much better and would piss the Kiwis off no end.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:26 pm**

An idle thought perhaps, but longer term should we not have a more formalised coach pathway?

It always seemed odd to me that there's such a small pool of international coaches, and part of that is because it seems that, to be an international coach, you almost need to be an international coach. Club rugby is a good development, but it's not quite the same set of requirements, and I'm not sure what elevates a club coach into someone seen as international standard.

Is suppose my question is - what training is actually involved in developing a head coach? I appreciate Eddie likes to look broadly for inspiration, but I'm never sure such on-the-job experimentation is always helpful.

I mention this as the Football Association seemed to realise that just putting a wine-soaked old ex-pro into the big seat wasn't successful, and Southgate worked up through the U21s before being promoted and now they're into finals. The team also seem to be less dick-headed than in (even relatively recent) days of old, which I appreciate is faint praise but I'd also put in part down to Southgate having a better appreciation of the influences/impacts of culture, environment etc. as part of his development.

Anyway, as I said at the top, all idle thoughts.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:29 pm**

SaintK wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:12 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:57 am
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:53 am

Who gives a shit? Watching BMac lead a transformation of England cricket is hard enough to watch. I just don't want to see Razor doing the same with the England rugby team.
Borthwick as caretaker for 6N with Razor to take over once the season ends, and lead England to the WC and beyond would be an acceptable compromise.
I'm not sure Borthwick would want to caretake just for 6N, not sure Tigers would release him from his contract either. You just know we are going to end up with Connor O'Shea and Cockers in temporary charge........................God forbid!

As long as it is not Razor. Why did England not try to get Gats?

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:55 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:37 am
average joe wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:28 am Must be top secret cause the article seems to be in some weird sort of code.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 5c3j9.html

Oh, that Jones! I thought it was about Tom Jones returning to the green, green grass of home.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 pm**

Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:29 pm
SaintK wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:12 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:57 am

Borthwick as caretaker for 6N with Razor to take over once the season ends, and lead England to the WC and beyond would be an acceptable compromise.
I'm not sure Borthwick would want to caretake just for 6N, not sure Tigers would release him from his contract either. You just know we are going to end up with Connor O'Shea and Cockers in temporary charge........................God forbid!
As long as it is not Razor. Why did England not try to get Gats?

Not sure Gatland was evfer on the list as a long term replacement though I'm sure he could have done a decent job for the 6N and RWC

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:13 pm**

inactionman wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:26 pm An idle thought perhaps, but longer term should we not have a more formalised coach pathway?

It always seemed odd to me that there's such a small pool of international coaches, and part of that is because it seems that, to be an international coach, you almost need to be an international coach. Club rugby is a good development, but it's not quite the same set of requirements, and I'm not sure what elevates a club coach into someone seen as international standard.

Is suppose my question is - what training is actually involved in developing a head coach? I appreciate Eddie likes to look broadly for inspiration, but I'm never sure such on-the-job experimentation is always helpful.

I mention this as the Football Association seemed to realise that just putting a wine-soaked old ex-pro into the big seat wasn't successful, and Southgate worked up through the U21s before being promoted and now they're into finals. The team also seem to be less dick-headed than in (even relatively recent) days of old, which I appreciate is faint praise but I'd also put in part down to Southgate having a better appreciation of the influences/impacts of culture, environment etc. as part of his development.

Anyway, as I said at the top, all idle thoughts.

The RFU seem to have all the badges and a pathway, but also don't seem to trust those coaches to go beyond U20s or women or 7s. And pro sides seem to prefer internal hires or people who played pro elsewhere. They and international sides seem happy to do the football thing of giving fired coaches from other clubs another go, or bring in Kiwis thinking them magicians who'll turn things around.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:16 pm**

Too soon for a move like this.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 pm**

SaintK wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 pm
Kiwias wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:29 pm
SaintK wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:12 pm
I'm not sure Borthwick would want to caretake just for 6N, not sure Tigers would release him from his contract either. You just know we are going to end up with Connor O'Shea and Cockers in temporary charge........................God forbid!
As long as it is not Razor. Why did England not try to get Gats?
Not sure Gatland was evfer on the list as a long term replacement though I'm sure he could have done a decent job for the 6N and RWC

I suspect there will be some at the RFU who think the next coach should be English and after his success with Leicester last year, Borthwick was already being looked at to succeed Jones after the World Cup. Rather than looking more widely, they might consider it easier to bring their existing plans forward by a year.

Unfortunately Borthwick’s record this year is much less impressive, and Leicester’s style of play is rather dour, making him a less convincing candidate than he was last year.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:26 pm**

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 pm
Unfortunately Borthwick’s record this year is much less impressive, and Leicester’s style of play is rather dour, making him a less convincing candidate than he was last year.

The bit in red being a barrier to selection by the RFU how?

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:34 pm**

Hope they dont appoint Rassie.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:35 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:26 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 pm
Unfortunately Borthwick’s record this year is much less impressive, and Leicester’s style of play is rather dour, making him a less convincing candidate than he was last year.
The bit in red being a barrier to selection by the RFU how?

It is almost a prerequisite for an England coach

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:17 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:26 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 pm
Unfortunately Borthwick’s record this year is much less impressive, and Leicester’s style of play is rather dour, making him a less convincing candidate than he was last year.
The bit in red being a barrier to selection by the RFU how?

I'm sure that for many in the RFU having a coach whose team plays dull inspiring rugby, mainly trudges from set piece to set piece and has a win ratio of just 44% represents a positive recommendation, but the rest of us might aspire to something a bit better than that.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:40 pm**

Seems to now be confirmed he's out. Borthers coming in.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:00 pm**

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:17 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:26 pm
Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 pm
Unfortunately Borthwick’s record this year is much less impressive, and Leicester’s style of play is rather dour, making him a less convincing candidate than he was last year.
The bit in red being a barrier to selection by the RFU how?
I'm sure that for many in the RFU having a coach whose team plays dull inspiring rugby, mainly trudges from set piece to set piece and has a win ratio of just 44% represents a positive recommendation, but the rest of us might aspire to something a bit better than that.

My point. The fans deserve better.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:26 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:16 pm Too soon for a move like this.

Agreed, he just needs a bit more time

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:50 pm**

Scab nose will do what England need to do be nasty and forward orientated.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:58 pm**

Raggs wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:40 pm Seems to now be confirmed he's out. Borthers coming in.

Any word on whether this is a short, or long term contract ?

If the former, the RFU are being a lot smarter than the WRU, who I fear have fucked up in a big way, by giving Gats a long contract.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 pm**

Surely for a short term contract you'd want a safe pair of hands, not a relatively inexperienced coach having a rough season.

Such a shame they weren't prepared to go for Robertson.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:23 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 pm Surely for a short term contract you'd want a safe pair of hands, not a relatively inexperienced coach having a rough season.

Such a shame they weren't prepared to go for Robertson.

One of the stories circulated about Robertson's failure to win the job with NZR 3 years ago centres on his unconventional approach and how that doesn't sit well with the conservative mindset dominating the NZR board... it would be a complex meeting of philosophies and declared boundaries if Robertson does manage to land the England job and in light of current events, he would need some solid guidance negotiating the internal politics of your set up.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:40 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 pm Surely for a short term contract you'd want a safe pair of hands, not a relatively inexperienced coach having a rough season.

Such a shame they weren't prepared to go for Robertson.

So after the failures of Johnson, & to a lesser extent Lancaster*; the RFU are hoping it's 3rd time lucky ?

* in terms of International coaching

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:06 am**

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:23 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 pm Surely for a short term contract you'd want a safe pair of hands, not a relatively inexperienced coach having a rough season.

Such a shame they weren't prepared to go for Robertson.
One of the stories circulated about Robertson's failure to win the job with NZR 3 years ago centres on his unconventional approach and how that doesn't sit well with the conservative mindset dominating the NZR board... it would be a complex meeting of philosophies and declared boundaries if Robertson does manage to land the England job and in light of current events, he would need some solid guidance negotiating the internal politics of your set up.

Aye - though to be fair, a lot of that is absolute bullshit and we're overdue a genuine overhaul. Lots of jobs for the old boys and parochialism, lots of people with no idea about the nature of the modern game having way too much say in matters. On the flip side, PRL are a pool of sharks...

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:19 am**

So.....can I break out the party hats and streamers yet?

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:46 am**

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:40 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 pm Surely for a short term contract you'd want a safe pair of hands, not a relatively inexperienced coach having a rough season.

Such a shame they weren't prepared to go for Robertson.
So after the failures of Johnson, & to a lesser extent Lancaster*; the RFU are hoping it's 3rd time lucky ?

* in terms of International coaching

Borthwick in having won the Prem and coached test rugby has a step up on both tbf, regardless of his limitations

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:22 am**

If true it is going to be an expensive Xmas for the RFU 800,000 to get rid Jones and 200,000 to get in Borthers

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:44 am**

I have to say watching the likes of Squidge and co absolutely melt down over this is very funny. They really did believe it was all a Master Plan

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:48 am**

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:44 am I have to say watching the likes of Squidge and co absolutely melt down over this is very funny. They really did believe it was all a Master Plan

Some of his videos border on the comic. Him claiming the Aussies had a kicking masterplan orchestrated by hand gestures from one winger 50 yards from the kicker was the point I turned off his latest video. Has clearly never played the game.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:52 am**

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:48 am
JM2K6 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:44 am I have to say watching the likes of Squidge and co absolutely melt down over this is very funny. They really did believe it was all a Master Plan
Some of his videos border on the comic. Him claiming the Aussies had a kicking masterplan orchestrated by hand gestures from one winger 50 yards from the kicker was the point I turned off his latest video. Has clearly never played the game.

Yeah, he has an eye for a pattern and can sometimes spot things really well, but then wants to attribute genius and planning to things that are just happenstance. It's quite, quite funny.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:54 am**

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:48 am
JM2K6 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:44 am I have to say watching the likes of Squidge and co absolutely melt down over this is very funny. They really did believe it was all a Master Plan
Some of his videos border on the comic. Him claiming the Aussies had a kicking masterplan orchestrated by hand gestures from one winger 50 yards from the kicker was the point I turned off his latest video. Has clearly never played the game.

Yeah, people lap that shit up for some reason.

Here's the result. Lets reverse engineer a theory about an incredibly intricate and sophisticated plan/strategy that was put into action to explain every moment leading to the result.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:58 am**

And yeah, the masterplan theory can piss off too.

Rugby is chaotic. You don't play like trash for a year or two leading up to a RWC because you're hiding all your secret plans. No elite international team actually does that.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:05 am**

On a similar note

(Sam is a blogger who worked as an analyst for a while)

Sorry Sam, but you're absolutely barking if you think the coaching turnover is normal or that there isn't a stink around how Eddie treats people.

NPR

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