More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
The kicker takes the kick within 90 seconds from the time the try was awarded, and 60s for penalty kicks. Top14 does it and it’s fine
30s for scrums and lineout without delay
The Aussies will not be happy with that one.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:06 pm
by Grandpa
Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm
More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
They should also make it that the team throwing in can throw it in as early as they like as long as thrown in from the correct spot... so if the opposition isn't lined up.. that's their problem...
Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm
More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
They should also make it that the team throwing in can throw it in as early as they like as long as thrown in from the correct spot... so if the opposition isn't lined up.. that's their problem...
I thought you could as long as you're lineout is set?
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:08 am
by Jim Lahey
The clock should be stopped at scrum time until the front rows engage or when the 9 puts the ball in. Before that, the ball is not in play.
Make the fat fucks run for 80mins instead of skimming 10-15 minutes off every game by pissing about.
Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm
More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
They should also make it that the team throwing in can throw it in as early as they like as long as thrown in from the correct spot... so if the opposition isn't lined up.. that's their problem...
You can unless the ball has been touched by someone not on the pitch.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:39 pm
by bok_viking
The other interesting thing that was mentioned I believe is that negative play can get penalised as well. For example a player grabbing a ball when the penalty is conceded stopping the other team from taking a quick penalty, etc. I think it was also mentioned that players being held in rucks so they cannot role away/ or stopping players from leaving the ruck to get back into the defensive line and a couple of other things were mentioned as negative play. For me that would be very welcoming.
And less involvement from the TMO unless he sees clear and obvious errors or foul play. If a TMO tell a ref there is potential foul play yet they have to go through countless replays to determine if it was so, then it would not be considered clear and obvious so the TMO should not inform the ref and let play go on.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:48 pm
by Ymx
Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:08 am
The clock should be stopped at scrum time until the front rows engage or when the 9 puts the ball in. Before that, the ball is not in play.
Make the fat fucks run for 80mins instead of skimming 10-15 minutes off every game by pissing about.
Agreed.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:04 pm
by Niegs
bok_viking wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:39 pm
The other interesting thing that was mentioned I believe is that negative play can get penalised as well. For example a player grabbing a ball when the penalty is conceded stopping the other team from taking a quick penalty, etc. I think it was also mentioned that players being held in rucks so they cannot role away/ or stopping players from leaving the ruck to get back into the defensive line and a couple of other things were mentioned as negative play. For me that would be very welcoming.
And less involvement from the TMO unless he sees clear and obvious errors or foul play. If a TMO tell a ref there is potential foul play yet they have to go through countless replays to determine if it was so, then it would not be considered clear and obvious so the TMO should not inform the ref and let play go on.
What often slows the game down is this notion that the ref is the be-all, end-all decision maker. They're all qualified and experienced referees. If they want to tinker with something, allow the ARs and TMO to make direct calls.
Yeah, there will be more penalties to start, but I reckon the players would adapt.
Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm
More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
They should also make it that the team throwing in can throw it in as early as they like as long as thrown in from the correct spot... so if the opposition isn't lined up.. that's their problem...
You can unless the ball has been touched by someone not on the pitch.
Once the non-throwing team have a single person "contesting", they have to wait for the full lineout to form.
Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm
More focus on lineouts not being delayed will be welcome. Not talked about as much as scrums, but the number of times you see the hooker amble over to the ball, whilst the rest of the pack stand 10 yards away having a committee meeting for 20 seconds. All the while with the defending team lined up ready to go.
Would stop instantly if messing about like that was being free kicked.
They should also make it that the team throwing in can throw it in as early as they like as long as thrown in from the correct spot... so if the opposition isn't lined up.. that's their problem...
I thought you could as long as you're lineout is set?
Nope. Lineout is a 'set' piece play. Both teams must be ready. You can free-kick tardy players though.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
by Ymx
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:41 am
by laurent
Ymx wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
the google translate is relatively poor with rugby terminology.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:46 am
by Paddington Bear
The truth is that gaining penalties has become the be all and end all of every 'system', until sides get into the other's 22 and bar some set piece trick plays. This is why the whole aim of a scrum is to buy a penalty and going into a ruck to jackal rather than actually steal the ball is par for the course. I don't have a well defined answer to this.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:54 am
by weegie01
Ymx wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
I was watching an English game recently with my son who is that unusual animal, an ex prop and referee. There were a couple of scrums where as far he was concerned no actual offences took place, but one scrum was pushed back and were penalised for losing the scrum and retreating.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:30 pm
by Jim Lahey
I think the issue with scrums is just the massive grey area it is. Similar with rucks. There are offences on both sides of the ball normally but the ref penalises one side over the other.
Specifically with scrums, I think having Scrum "Experts" like Flats weighing in on every scrum pen and calling out when a ref makes a wrong decision makes the situation worse. 99.999% of viewers detest scrums with a passion given how much of a blight they are on the spectacle. So when they hear Flats saying the ref got it wrong and their side concedes an unjust penalty at scrum time, we all just hate it a bit more.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:39 pm
by Kawazaki
Ymx wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
The nuclear option would be to get rid of the scrum altogether and replace it with a lineout instead level with the infringement.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:41 pm
by Paddington Bear
It's noticeable that when a side gets a shove on, both sides stop and wait for the ref to give a penalty. And fully agree on scrum experts - the aim of a scrum is to set a platform to attack from with 8 forwards tied up and going backwards not to become some sort of chess match where I remain convinced everyone is bullshitting that they know what is going on.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:52 pm
by Kawazaki
Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:41 pm
It's noticeable that when a side gets a shove on, both sides stop and wait for the ref to give a penalty. And fully agree on scrum experts - the aim of a scrum is to set a platform to attack from with 8 forwards tied up and going backwards not to become some sort of chess match where I remain convinced everyone is bullshitting that they know what is going on.
The main reason, for me, that rugby introduced set-piece elements was to introduce more jeopardy to the game. Not in the form of a penalty lottery like we get now but to force teams to have specialists with certain physical characteristics to undertake those set plays. Originally this meant short and wide for the front-row and tall and rangy for the second-row. Those players would then have to spend most of their training time practicing the set-piece which added even more jeopardy. And this actually worked fairly well in the older amateur era. Now, props are expected to carry like centres and locks are expected to play like flankers - much of the jeopardy has gone.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:27 pm
by Guy Smiley
Bear with me here....
imagine scrums with a straight feed.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:32 pm
by Jim Lahey
At schools level in Ulster, you were only allowed to shove 1.5m in the scrum, and if you went further the team that was getting shoved were awarded a FK. Not sure if this standard elsewhere at underage level.
This is the best of both worlds imo. Still allows for technical scrummaging, and instead of trying to obliterate the opppsition front row, you are trying to destabalise them enough so your hooker can try and strike the ball back against the head. A quick strike against the head and the 9 getting the ball away from the scrum means the defence is set up for attack so a decent team should be able to make hay.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:36 pm
by Paddington Bear
Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:32 pm
At schools level in Ulster, you were only allowed to shove 1.5m in the scrum, and if you went further the team that was getting shoved were awarded a FK. Not sure if this standard elsewhere at underage level.
This is the best of both worlds imo. Still allows for technical scrummaging, and instead of trying to obliterate the opppsition front row, you are trying to destabalise them enough so your hooker can try and strike the ball back against the head. A quick strike against the head and the 9 getting the ball away from the scrum means the defence is set up for attack so a decent team should be able to make hay.
Was the same in England when I was playing junior rugby, and a failure to stop pushing was a penalty
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:00 pm
by Jim Lahey
And obviously binning the 2 props on the bench bollocks and reducing it back to 1 would go along way to curb the fucking about at scrum time.
Having an extra fatty on the bench increases the importance of the scrum and probably leads to more overall injuries across the pitch.
bok_viking wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:39 pm
The other interesting thing that was mentioned I believe is that negative play can get penalised as well. For example a player grabbing a ball when the penalty is conceded stopping the other team from taking a quick penalty, etc. I think it was also mentioned that players being held in rucks so they cannot role away/ or stopping players from leaving the ruck to get back into the defensive line and a couple of other things were mentioned as negative play. For me that would be very welcoming.
And less involvement from the TMO unless he sees clear and obvious errors or foul play. If a TMO tell a ref there is potential foul play yet they have to go through countless replays to determine if it was so, then it would not be considered clear and obvious so the TMO should not inform the ref and let play go on.
What often slows the game down is this notion that the ref is the be-all, end-all decision maker. They're all qualified and experienced referees. If they want to tinker with something, allow the ARs and TMO to make direct calls.
Yeah, there will be more penalties to start, but I reckon the players would adapt.
I actually believe the refs could well have penalised the examples above, but decided to apply the law differently.
I would also like jackallers who hang onto the body of the tackled player (preventing him to release the ball in the process) without actually going for the ball be penalized.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:08 pm
by TheFrog
Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:00 pm
And obviously binning the 2 props on the bench bollocks and reducing it back to 1 would go along way to curb the fucking about at scrum time.
Having an extra fatty on the bench increases the importance of the scrum and probably leads to more overall injuries across the pitch.
So instead you go back to more uncontested scrums after a convenient HIA is called?
Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:32 pm
At schools level in Ulster, you were only allowed to shove 1.5m in the scrum, and if you went further the team that was getting shoved were awarded a FK. Not sure if this standard elsewhere at underage level.
This is the best of both worlds imo. Still allows for technical scrummaging, and instead of trying to obliterate the opppsition front row, you are trying to destabalise them enough so your hooker can try and strike the ball back against the head. A quick strike against the head and the 9 getting the ball away from the scrum means the defence is set up for attack so a decent team should be able to make hay.
Was the same in England when I was playing junior rugby, and a failure to stop pushing was a penalty
Was the same in France.
But at senior level, that would mean no more pushover tries.
Do we want to go to league style scrums?
Ymx wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
The nuclear option would be to get rid of the scrum altogether and replace it with a lineout instead level with the infringement.
And you end up with packs of tall flankers, bar maybe two short ones to jackal the ball in the rucks (low center of gravity).
Ymx wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:23 am
There is obviously the quick throw in, in a lineout, so that’s not entirely true. But once an opponent is in place that is no longer an option, and then it needs to be a correctly aligned and matching (in numbers) lineout.
However, the lineout is the best part of our game, it really isn’t a problem.
The scrum is the shambles everyone is sick of. Time off would be a start. But removing the “reward” of a penalty for the scrum falling apart is really what is needed to get it n with it.
The nuclear option would be to get rid of the scrum altogether and replace it with a lineout instead level with the infringement.
And you end up with packs of tall flankers, bar maybe two short ones to jackal the ball in the rucks (low center of gravity).
Yes, though more likely there would only be 2 or 3 forwards >2m tall and 5 forwards who would likely win most CrossFit competitions.
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:53 pm
by Biffer
It’s pretty much universally the throwing team that slows the line out down. Thirty or sixty seconds from when the touch judge makes the mark I’d say.
Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:00 pm
And obviously binning the 2 props on the bench bollocks and reducing it back to 1 would go along way to curb the fucking about at scrum time.
Having an extra fatty on the bench increases the importance of the scrum and probably leads to more overall injuries across the pitch.
So instead you go back to more uncontested scrums after a convenient HIA is called?
Well its the turd sandwich/giant douche conundrum.
Scrums are a disgrace in the modern game. They have been given far too much significance in what should be an arbritruary way of restarting the game. More importance toward scrumming and 4x fat props in a squad = more heavy cunts smashing into people, which = more injuries and HIAs.
If rugby is trying to be a consumer sport then it needs to give the customers what they want. Watching scrum resets and shit penalties that could go either way and no-one knows what the fuck is going on, is not the way to "grow the game" imo.
Devaluing it makes sense, and if that means having more instances of uncontested scrums which allows for exciting first phase attacking, then I'm all for it
Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:32 pm
At schools level in Ulster, you were only allowed to shove 1.5m in the scrum, and if you went further the team that was getting shoved were awarded a FK. Not sure if this standard elsewhere at underage level.
This is the best of both worlds imo. Still allows for technical scrummaging, and instead of trying to obliterate the opppsition front row, you are trying to destabalise them enough so your hooker can try and strike the ball back against the head. A quick strike against the head and the 9 getting the ball away from the scrum means the defence is set up for attack so a decent team should be able to make hay.
Was the same in England when I was playing junior rugby, and a failure to stop pushing was a penalty
Was the same in France.
But at senior level, that would mean no more pushover tries.
Do we want to go to league style scrums?
No, but I tend to agree with JL that that may be a better outcome than we currently have. A lot of stuff about the sanctity of scrums is backwards facing and reminiscing about what they used to be like. When was the last time there was a genuine (one side gets a shove on, scrum remains broadly intact, 8 dots down) pushover try in a pro game? I don't have tonnes of interest in 45 seconds of set up, reset, 25 seconds to go again followed by a penalty, and am very interested in any viable alternative
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:38 pm
by Sandstorm
Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:30 pm
99.999% of viewers detest scrums with a passion given how much of a blight they are on the spectacle.
That stat is pure bullshit. Unless you’re talking about League?
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:16 am
by Niegs
Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:53 pm
It’s pretty much universally the throwing team that slows the line out down. Thirty or sixty seconds from when the touch judge makes the mark I’d say.
Another reason for my stance of: No more lifting, AR chucks it in (AFL style for the chaos-loving people like me! )
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:30 am
by ASMO
They used it last night in the Sale/Leicester game and i saw no difference, it was still slow as shit setting a scrum. Ref continually stopping to give instructions, none of them were anywhere near 30 seconds to reset!
Re: World Rugby new rules. “Sexton, hurry-up ! “
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:36 am
by GogLais
I don’t sit there looking at my watch but I’m sure that the five second “Use it” rule is being ignored. In the URC matches I’ve seen recently anyway. And really the refs might as well shout “Kick it”.
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