NPR

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:16 am The greatest ever not simply because he was the best player but because he also conducted himself properly.

That 1970 team was a thing of perfection.

dabooldawg wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:30 pm How competitive and at what level was soccer 50-60 years ago?

Hugo wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:45 pm

dabooldawg wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:30 pm How competitive and at what level was soccer 50-60 years ago?

On par with today competition wise, very hard to win an international trophy as it was harder to qualify for the tournaments. Players were not as fit or as fast but there were so many levellers - pitches were often atrocious and a lot of out and out thuggery was tolerated.

Hugo wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:16 pm He did have good character but one knock on him is that he was apolitical and compliant with the military dictatorship. This is covered in his netflix documentary.

I believe that they forbid him to be sold abroad and of course they derived immense benefit from the 3 World Cup victories and Pele never spoke out against them. Muhammad Ali he was not.

Pele contends that he was just not politically minded which is fair enough but you could still say he wasted his platform by not speaking out. The world would surely have listened.

Uncle fester wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:40 pm

Hugo wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:16 pm He did have good character but one knock on him is that he was apolitical and compliant with the military dictatorship. This is covered in his netflix documentary.

I believe that they forbid him to be sold abroad and of course they derived immense benefit from the 3 World Cup victories and Pele never spoke out against them. Muhammad Ali he was not.

Pele contends that he was just not politically minded which is fair enough but you could still say he wasted his platform by not speaking out. The world would surely have listened.

Bit of an unfair metric to judge him by compared to other footballers.

dpedin wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:08 pm I watched my first World Cup aged 7 in 1966 on black and white tv and thought Eusebio was just brilliant. However my Dad managed to rent a colour tv for the 1970 World Cup and from then on I was mesmerised by Brazil and Pele in particular. The 1970 team was just stunning, played football in a way I had never seen before plus it was in colour and they looked so exotic and special. The closest I had seen to Brazil was perhaps the Lisbon Lions in the 1967 European Cup Final but they had 'normal' Scottish names I recognised unlike the single named Brazilians like Pele or Jairzinho. I managed to persuade my parents to get me a Brazil top for my Christmas that year and I wore it every day until it fell apart. For me Pele was football, a genius on the pitch and a nice guy off it.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:16 am The greatest ever not simply because he was the best player but because he also conducted himself properly.

That 1970 team was a thing of perfection.

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:38 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:16 am The greatest ever not simply because he was the best player but because he also conducted himself properly.

That 1970 team was a thing of perfection.

I just watched the 1970 final in it's entirety... it's incredible how the game has changed. The players spent more time walking, rather than running... and the ref must be 65 years old... got so many decisions wrong. Pele looked fitter than any of them. Bit like a modern player, playing with amateurs.

After that I watched Brazil in the 1982 World Cup... only 12 years later... but even now they are wonderful to watch again... unlike the 1970 side, which does look like watching my old school team.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:17 am

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:38 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:16 am The greatest ever not simply because he was the best player but because he also conducted himself properly.

That 1970 team was a thing of perfection.

I just watched the 1970 final in it's entirety... it's incredible how the game has changed. The players spent more time walking, rather than running... and the ref must be 65 years old... got so many decisions wrong. Pele looked fitter than any of them. Bit like a modern player, playing with amateurs.

After that I watched Brazil in the 1982 World Cup... only 12 years later... but even now they are wonderful to watch again... unlike the 1970 side, which does look like watching my old school team.

Many continental sides still play that way. The Barcelonas for example. It's really in England where the game is played helter skelter by default (substance over style if we are being unkind).

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:21 am
Barcelona are nothing like either of those two sides in 1970... they occassionally broke into a jog... Pele was the only player I saw sprint once or twice... it really is comical to watch now... the goalies were... well.. like someone dragged from the crowd to keep...

Highlights are misleading. Just watch the whole thing.. and you appreciate it properly... and the thing is I thought it was fantastic when I was a kid.. so it's all relative... today's football will likely look pedestrian in another 50 years...

Football now is pretty similar all over. England are dominating in Europe in recent times, in terms of number of sides doing well.. and reaching the knockout rounds..... but Real, City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Bayern are all pretty similar in style really... likely because they are all full of players from around the world... along with non-British coaches...

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:47 am

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:21 am
Barcelona are nothing like either of those two sides in 1970... they occassionally broke into a jog... Pele was the only player I saw sprint once or twice... it really is comical to watch now... the goalies were... well.. like someone dragged from the crowd to keep...

Highlights are misleading. Just watch the whole thing.. and you appreciate it properly... and the thing is I thought it was fantastic when I was a kid.. so it's all relative... today's football will likely look pedestrian in another 50 years...

Football now is pretty similar all over. England are dominating in Europe in recent times, in terms of number of sides doing well.. and reaching the knockout rounds..... but Real, City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Bayern are all pretty similar in style really... likely because they are all full of players from around the world... along with non-British coaches...

Brazilian keepers, until recently, were always like that!!

You'd expect homogeneity now because, like all sports (rugby is more obviously so), it's easier to engineer (in every sense....) super fit athletes than it is to find a skilled genius.

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:02 pm How can we make rugby great again? How can we bring back skill as the point of difference rather than physicality? Because you are right... apart from Fiji... all teams play the same... and even Fiji will soon...

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:03 pm And look at this git.... as if he couldn't get anymore cringe... he does this...

Fifa president shamed by his behaviour at Pele's funeral

Gianni Infantion's selfie next to Pele's open coffin was another vapid act after a World Cup full of lowlights

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... idiculous/

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:32 pm

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:02 pm How can we make rugby great again? How can we bring back skill as the point of difference rather than physicality? Because you are right... apart from Fiji... all teams play the same... and even Fiji will soon...

I have my own soap box rant for this and it all comes down to space. Unlike football, rugby does still require players of different builds (albeit the Shane Williams size has reached extinction point) and that means some of them cannot play flat out for 80 mins. Of course, they don't have to because subs benches are the size of a small housing estate these days. My view is to ban all substitutions except for injuries. I don't even care whether the injury isn't assessed by an independent medic: anyone can be subbed for injury regardless. But the rub is you cannot then play the next 2 matches as a mandatory recovery period. On top of that, squad sizes to be limited for any inter-country comps to prevent big budget teams trying to stockpile players (in theory caps should be doing this but they aren't working and are not uniform across nations).

That should mean tiredness creating space in the last 1/3rd of game time and maybe some different and creative strategies emerging e.g. perhaps some coach will take a less good scrummaging prop over one who is mobile and can go the 80?

I hear the argument that there would be some opportunities to cheat still: the final of a comp for example. But those loopholes exist in everything we try to do to improve rugby as a spectacle. This is not about seeking perfection but in seeking to make the game watchable and more diverse.

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:02 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:32 pm

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:02 pm How can we make rugby great again? How can we bring back skill as the point of difference rather than physicality? Because you are right... apart from Fiji... all teams play the same... and even Fiji will soon...

I have my own soap box rant for this and it all comes down to space. Unlike football, rugby does still require players of different builds (albeit the Shane Williams size has reached extinction point) and that means some of them cannot play flat out for 80 mins. Of course, they don't have to because subs benches are the size of a small housing estate these days. My view is to ban all substitutions except for injuries. I don't even care whether the injury isn't assessed by an independent medic: anyone can be subbed for injury regardless. But the rub is you cannot then play the next 2 matches as a mandatory recovery period. On top of that, squad sizes to be limited for any inter-country comps to prevent big budget teams trying to stockpile players (in theory caps should be doing this but they aren't working and are not uniform across nations).

That should mean tiredness creating space in the last 1/3rd of game time and maybe some different and creative strategies emerging e.g. perhaps some coach will take a less good scrummaging prop over one who is mobile and can go the 80?

I hear the argument that there would be some opportunities to cheat still: the final of a comp for example. But those loopholes exist in everything we try to do to improve rugby as a spectacle. This is not about seeking perfection but in seeking to make the game watchable and more diverse.

I pretty much agree with all of that. I think Guy Smilie and YMX were pushing for something similar? Looking back to rugby in the 80s and 90s where players were knackered in the last 20 minutes... and the pitches looked twice as big!

The power teams like SA and England may not like it though... ideally for them would be a squad of 30 with inter-changes like Rugby League...

LoveOfTheGame wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:35 pm

Grandpa wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:02 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:32 pm

I have my own soap box rant for this and it all comes down to space. Unlike football, rugby does still require players of different builds (albeit the Shane Williams size has reached extinction point) and that means some of them cannot play flat out for 80 mins. Of course, they don't have to because subs benches are the size of a small housing estate these days. My view is to ban all substitutions except for injuries. I don't even care whether the injury isn't assessed by an independent medic: anyone can be subbed for injury regardless. But the rub is you cannot then play the next 2 matches as a mandatory recovery period. On top of that, squad sizes to be limited for any inter-country comps to prevent big budget teams trying to stockpile players (in theory caps should be doing this but they aren't working and are not uniform across nations).

That should mean tiredness creating space in the last 1/3rd of game time and maybe some different and creative strategies emerging e.g. perhaps some coach will take a less good scrummaging prop over one who is mobile and can go the 80?

I hear the argument that there would be some opportunities to cheat still: the final of a comp for example. But those loopholes exist in everything we try to do to improve rugby as a spectacle. This is not about seeking perfection but in seeking to make the game watchable and more diverse.

I pretty much agree with all of that. I think Guy Smilie and YMX were pushing for something similar? Looking back to rugby in the 80s and 90s where players were knackered in the last 20 minutes... and the pitches looked twice as big!

The power teams like SA and England may not like it though... ideally for them would be a squad of 30 with inter-changes like Rugby League...

Eh? NZ players are just as huge mate, only slightly lighter than SA this year. Your fellow kiwi Two Cents said so a couple of weeks ago in one of his stats thingies. So easy with the power teams like Sa and Eng nonsense, a change like this would most definitely also affect your boys.

Anyway, make your changes. Have it your way. In the end, it still won't be good enough and changes will be needed again.