NPR

Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

It’s like that all over London too. Shite.

Do you guys not have bypasses?

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:36 am Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

You live in Llanelli?

TB63 getting ready for his daily commute.

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:27 am

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

It’s like that all over London too. Shite.

In my London borough the 20mph limit now in place for 2 years has resulted in slowing the already safe drivers, angering those who would routinely do 30-35 in a 30 and who still drive at that speed and made the rest fucking dangerous and actually faster as they make up the time lost behind the 20-ers.

Without enforcement it is pointless, behaviours are now worse.

Most of my friends in SE Wales complain about the excessive and slightly cynical police use of mobile speed cameras - things like this make me wonder if there is some though towards revenue raising.

It's very, very easy to drift up to 30 in a 20.

Less all encompassing, but all the residential roads by me are 20mph. For the most part it gets a decent proportion of the people who would have been drifting at 33-35 in a thirty zone down to 23-25. Clearly it would get annoying with hardline enforcement, but that's not the case at the moment.

shaggy wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:47 am

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:27 am

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30.. :crazy:

It’s like that all over London too. Shite.

In my London borough the 20mph limit now in place for 2 years has resulted in slowing the already safe drivers, angering those who would routinely do 30-35 in a 30 and who still drive at that speed and made the rest fucking dangerous and actually faster as they make up the time lost behind the 20-ers.

Without enforcement it is pointless, behaviours are now worse.

It’s a fucking nightmare with electric bikes racing past you at 25-30mph. Red lights be damned. Go through Islington in the mornings. Cyclists, courier bikes all hammering past cars with no requirement to observe any limit.

Stop whinging. God, car drivers are the most entitled cunts on the planet.

Just been out to collect granddaughter, 1500 rpm in 3rd is 30, 1500 rpm in 2nd is 20, same revs, going slower , more pollution in a given area..

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:36 am Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

How do you get home from the pub?

Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:05 pm Stop whinging. God, car drivers are the most entitled cunts on the planet.

This

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:02 pm

shaggy wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:47 am

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:27 am

It’s like that all over London too. Shite.

In my London borough the 20mph limit now in place for 2 years has resulted in slowing the already safe drivers, angering those who would routinely do 30-35 in a 30 and who still drive at that speed and made the rest fucking dangerous and actually faster as they make up the time lost behind the 20-ers.

Without enforcement it is pointless, behaviours are now worse.

It’s a fucking nightmare with electric bikes racing past you at 25-30mph. Red lights be damned. Go through Islington in the mornings. Cyclists, courier bikes all hammering past cars with no requirement to observe any limit.

Sounds awful and must have a terrible impact on you, all those non polluting things flying past

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

See my post above your reply..

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:05 pm Stop whinging. God, car drivers are the most entitled cunts on the planet.

I doubt that. That accolade goes to Westerners and whilst I appreciate there is an overlap there in terms of car ownership per capita, the "entitledness" is nothing to do with the cars which are simply one of many expressions of your behaviour.

If you think cyclists are the good guys …. Jeremy Vine.


Fortunately he gets a little treatment here by trying to manufacture a dangerous situation

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:40 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

See my post above your reply..

Indeed. Plus the other effects.

There are some contradictory studies about driving styles in traffic calmed areas i.e. hard accelerating and stopping is more polluting than smooth driving (who'd have thought it....)
- those in favour of stuff like 20mph will argue that the very effect of reducing speed limits will reduce that sort of driving
BUT that ignores other factors
> the stuff we already covered
> whether drivers actually drive more smoothly in a 20 than a 30......... or actually worse because they get irritated
> and how the measures are enforced............. because we aren't talking long straight stretches of road. A US study proved that stuff like speed bumps, traffic lights, single lane narrowing (priority bottlenecks) all significantly increased pollution.

So, basically, it's all bollox. Like the 50 mph all the way down the M4 through Cardiff. Want to really reduce pollution there then
a) Get the lorries of the roads and on to rail.
b) Fix the clusterf**k that is public transport in the UK.
c) Don't live near an airport: ULEZ by Heathrow FFS

Don't get me started on speed humps!

Even in a 20 zone, they're fucking everywhere...and you have to slow down to 10 to 15 to go over them, depending if the tarmac contractor owned a garage nearby.. One stretch of road near me, 5 humps, first 2 are ok at 15, 3rd is a crawl at below 10 over it otherwise my nodding dogs head falls off..next 2 you can do 20 over...

Ymx wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:53 pm If you think cyclists are the good guys …. Jeremy Vine.


Fortunately he gets a little treatment here by trying to manufacture a dangerous situation

Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:02 pm
Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:21 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:02 pm
Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Streets closed off for half the day for footie, rugby, cricket, running etc. OK

A few people cycling on a country lane delaying you by 2 minutes, absolute cunts

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:21 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:02 pm
Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:22 pm Just been out to collect granddaughter, 1500 rpm in 3rd is 30, 1500 rpm in 2nd is 20, same revs, going slower , more pollution in a given area..

I'm not sure you understand how combustion engines work.

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

Exactly. It's absolutely fine.

And it demonstrably saves lives.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:33 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

Exactly. It's absolutely fine.

And it demonstrably saves lives.

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:20 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:22 pm Just been out to collect granddaughter, 1500 rpm in 3rd is 30, 1500 rpm in 2nd is 20, same revs, going slower , more pollution in a given area..

I'm not sure you understand how combustion engines work.

If you're going down the route of energy Vs fuel consumption requirements for work loads of an engine, then the difference between the 2 is minimal..

Yes I do know..

Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:51 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:33 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

Exactly. It's absolutely fine.

And it demonstrably saves lives.

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:54 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:20 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:22 pm Just been out to collect granddaughter, 1500 rpm in 3rd is 30, 1500 rpm in 2nd is 20, same revs, going slower , more pollution in a given area..

I'm not sure you understand how combustion engines work.

If you're going down the route of energy Vs fuel consumption requirements for work loads of an engine, then the difference between the 2 is minimal..

Yes I do know..

Get a 6 speed gearbox, TB. 20mph in 3rd = 1350 rpm. Smooth.

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:54 pm

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

Darwin is disappoint.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:20 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:22 pm Just been out to collect granddaughter, 1500 rpm in 3rd is 30, 1500 rpm in 2nd is 20, same revs, going slower , more pollution in a given area..

I'm not sure you understand how combustion engines work.

If he's a taxi driver in a manual diesel, he's in 3rd gear by 5 mph and 5th by 20.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:05 pm Stop whinging. God, car drivers are the most entitled cunts on the planet.

Very much this. See also - our high street being pedestrianised for much of the day which is allegedly kIllInG oUr HiGh StReEt, despite there being two surface level car parks within 100 yards. Just totally entitled to own any and all public space, regardless of the costs to others.

Sure, trying to drive at 20 *is* irritating, but so is air pollution, not being able to sit outside at a pub/cafe, and traffic accidents.

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:10 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:54 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:20 pm
I'm not sure you understand how combustion engines work.

If you're going down the route of energy Vs fuel consumption requirements for work loads of an engine, then the difference between the 2 is minimal..

Yes I do know..

Get a 6 speed gearbox, TB. 20mph in 3rd = 1350 rpm. Smooth.

Out of my cars..I have to normally drive the heap of shit Citroen Pichachu or whatever, it's my parents car and the only one they can get into!..

Took my MX5 out for a spin the other day, the filthy looks I was getting burbling past at 20 mph....in 1st....

Most car journeys are non essential, if it encourages car owners to think it is quicker to get where they are going on a pushbike, great.

Also the difference between hitting someone at 30 and 20, to that person is massive.

Wish I was hit at 20mph.
Maybe only one disc would be shot, instead of 3..and the shaking in excruciating pain would be manageable by the use of a couple of paracetamol.

It really irks me that after 13 years of Tory devestation and austerity, and ruin....motorists are outraged when asked to drop their speed by 10mph and drive a bit more safely, to the extent the lot of the motoring lobby in England, GB News (and moaning motorists in Wales) are calling for Mark Drakefords head and the dissolution of the Welsh Assembly.

This fucking country.