NPR

I’m moving to a rural spot with no fibre broadband and worse less than a bar of 4g. Chatted to someone who lives nearby who said he was using Starlink (I’d never heard of it) and was delighted with it. Any users/opinions here? £75 a month, if you choose the rental option.

TedMaul wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:43 am I’m moving to a rural spot with no fibre broadband and worse less than a bar of 4g. Chatted to someone who lives nearby who said he was using Starlink (I’d never heard of it) and was delighted with it. Any users/opinions here? £75 a month, if you choose the rental option.

I have a friend who uses it in his remote holiday home and is very happy with it. It's for people whose only option is satellite broadband though. There's a pretty active Starlink subreddit if you want all the details.

p.s. given that Starlink is an Elon Musk company and has been in the news extensively due to Ukraine, I'm impressed you'd managed not to hear of it.

I know one of the big French youtuber lives in a rural area and uses it rather happily.
The main issue is that the owner is not a nice person...

Contrary to what he’d like you to think, Elon Musk is not the only satellite broadband provider. For example

https://www.freedomsat.co.uk/
https://www.satelliteinternet.co.uk/

Biffer wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:39 am Contrary to what he’d like you to think, Elon Musk is not the only satellite broadband provider. For example

https://www.freedomsat.co.uk/
https://www.satelliteinternet.co.uk/

His is the only one that isn't epically shit and expensive though.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 12:59 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:39 am Contrary to what he’d like you to think, Elon Musk is not the only satellite broadband provider. For example

https://www.freedomsat.co.uk/
https://www.satelliteinternet.co.uk/

His is the only one that isn't epically shit and expensive though.

Obviously he’d like people to believe that. And there will be others coming online in the next few years.

Biffer wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:05 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 12:59 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:39 am Contrary to what he’d like you to think, Elon Musk is not the only satellite broadband provider. For example

https://www.freedomsat.co.uk/
https://www.satelliteinternet.co.uk/

His is the only one that isn't epically shit and expensive though.

Obviously he’d like people to believe that. And there will be others coming online in the next few years.

So, feel free to list all the other satellite providers that provide a low latency, high bandwidth satellite service.

I’m certainly not aligning the choice with any politics, and as you say the choices aren’t exactly burgeoning so will go with it I think. It’s a clever solution, hope it works!

TedMaul wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:14 pm I’m certainly not aligning the choice with any politics, and as you say the choices aren’t exactly burgeoning so will go with it I think. It’s a clever solution, hope it works!

It’s pricy, but sounds like you have zero choice.

Precisely YMX, I was getting rather panicky about losing all comms Started to research current porn mag availability…..

I have absolutely no idea about them, but could you do with one of those 4G signal boosters, which will at least give you data on your phone, and be able to hot spot it.

I know of someone who uses Mifi . Mobile WiFi, which presumably you can get a really good antenna for.

Starlink is the choice that all the airlines are switching to. HUGE bandwidth gains over everyone else in the market.

Ymx wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 3:20 pm I have absolutely no idea about them, but could you do with one of those 4G signal boosters, which will at least give you data on your phone, and be able to hot spot it.

I know of someone who uses Mifi . Mobile WiFi, which presumably you can get a really good antenna for.

Yeah I thought about that but the neighbour did a strong little sales job on me for the Starlink, quite keen to see how good it is, the 4g signal is dogshit so let’s see.

Fair enough. I’m not Scottish, but paying £75 seems like a lot just for internet. Plus the extra £15 per month if you choose to rent the hardware (unless you fork out the £500 to buy it). Buying it is the cost of renting it for 3 years.

So it’s £90 a month.

Ymx wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 3:20 pm I have absolutely no idea about them, but could you do with one of those 4G signal boosters, which will at least give you data on your phone, and be able to hot spot it.

I know of someone who uses Mifi . Mobile WiFi, which presumably you can get a really good antenna for.

A high quality antenna will help but if your signal is shit it's still not going to give you anything spectacular.

My parents couldn't get above 1.5mbps on ADSL so they moved to a dual sim wireless internet system with a decent quality antenna (some South African make) That got them to 8mbps which was enough for them but might not be for most people.

TedMaul wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:43 am I’m moving to a rural spot with no fibre broadband and worse less than a bar of 4g. Chatted to someone who lives nearby who said he was using Starlink (I’d never heard of it) and was delighted with it. Any users/opinions here? £75 a month, if you choose the rental option.

Musk is a grifter, & Starlink is, & will be for the foreseeable future, completely & utterly economic suicide for the company !!!

It might, just might, get sustained over Ukraine, because the DoD wants it to, but anywhere else it's going to go belly up, & customers will be shit-out-of-luck.

This video does an excellent job of explaining the numbers.

That video is way, way off. Starlink is going nowhere. All that's going to happen is competition from companies like Amazon; traditional satellite ISPs are admitting that Starlink is eating their lunch and they simply cannot compete with LEO technologies.

As for the OP, the tech is really good and I have gamer mates who are happy with it, which I didn't expect. Packet loss and disconnections can be an issue with the satellite switching but if you don't have access to fibre then it's probably your next best bet. Just don't expect brilliance during peak hours.

Starlink needs something like $8billion annual turnover just to cover capital costs. Plus they then need to cover revenue costs before they make a profit.

Making a profit isn't really the aim right now I expect. See also Uber et al.

There's no question Starlink is a quantum shift in the fixed wireless space and there's an entire slice of global internet access companies staring their own mortality in the face.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:04 pm That video is way, way off. Starlink is going nowhere. All that's going to happen is competition from companies like Amazon; traditional satellite ISPs are admitting that Starlink is eating their lunch and they simply cannot compete with LEO technologies.

Which would be quite funny but is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Musk and it's even more space junk.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:18 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:04 pm That video is way, way off. Starlink is going nowhere. All that's going to happen is competition from companies like Amazon; traditional satellite ISPs are admitting that Starlink is eating their lunch and they simply cannot compete with LEO technologies.

Which would be quite funny but is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Musk and it's even more space junk.

Sure, Musk is both a total prick and a gigantic fucking idiot, but he's not the guy who made the tech. And it's horrific space junk. But there's no question the guys who livelihoods depend on this stuff aren't bullish on it disappearing any time soon, as much as they'd like it to.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:34 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:18 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:04 pm That video is way, way off. Starlink is going nowhere. All that's going to happen is competition from companies like Amazon; traditional satellite ISPs are admitting that Starlink is eating their lunch and they simply cannot compete with LEO technologies.

Which would be quite funny but is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Musk and it's even more space junk.

Sure, Musk is both a total prick and a gigantic fucking idiot, but he's not the guy who made the tech. And it's horrific space junk. But there's no question the guys who livelihoods depend on this stuff aren't bullish on it disappearing any time soon, as much as they'd like it to.

So can you explain how the company will finance the costs of subsidizing the customers*, & maintain the infrastructure, & stay in business ?

* And here we're talking about Joe Public, not the DoD

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:34 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:18 pm
Which would be quite funny but is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Musk and it's even more space junk.

Sure, Musk is both a total prick and a gigantic fucking idiot, but he's not the guy who made the tech. And it's horrific space junk. But there's no question the guys who livelihoods depend on this stuff aren't bullish on it disappearing any time soon, as much as they'd like it to.

So can you explain how the company will finance the costs of subsidizing the customers*, & maintain the infrastructure, & stay in business ?

* And here we're talking about Joe Public, not the DoD

In the short term - from investors, in the long term - sell more stuff.

They added 500k subscribers in the last 4 months.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:34 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:18 pm
Which would be quite funny but is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Musk and it's even more space junk.

Sure, Musk is both a total prick and a gigantic fucking idiot, but he's not the guy who made the tech. And it's horrific space junk. But there's no question the guys who livelihoods depend on this stuff aren't bullish on it disappearing any time soon, as much as they'd like it to.

So can you explain how the company will finance the costs of subsidizing the customers*, & maintain the infrastructure, & stay in business ?

* And here we're talking about Joe Public, not the DoD

There's practically infinite amounts of money available to companies making a loss while cornering a market. YouTube Guys aside, the industry itself thinks Starlink is an existential threat.

All businesses can go bust, and I'm not the Oracle, but no one whose livelihood depends on this thinks Starlink is a flash in the pan.

Ok well to address the product: it is absolutely fantastic. 150 mbps and no buffering whatsoever. Set up took all of 30 seconds and it’s been perfect. I’m a happy man.

Amazon's first two Kuiper satellites launch tomorrow.

Their business model is likely to be far more successful, as their approach is similar to how they started AWS.

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:54 am Amazon's first two Kuiper satellites launch tomorrow.

Their business model is likely to be far more successful, as their approach is similar to how they started AWS.

Yes, they are likely to be a big fish. A lot depends on availability and which markets they are planning on hitting in the first year or so.

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:54 am Amazon's first two Kuiper satellites launch tomorrow.

Their business model is likely to be far more successful, as their approach is similar to how they started AWS.

If by business model you mean 'lose money for years while developing a new technology to capture the market', that looks rather Musk's business model which has been quite successful for him.

Amazon may well be successful but they are years behind.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:18 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:54 am Amazon's first two Kuiper satellites launch tomorrow.

Their business model is likely to be far more successful, as their approach is similar to how they started AWS.

If by business model you mean 'lose money for years while developing a new technology to capture the market', that looks rather Musk's business model which has been quite successful for him.

Amazon may well be successful but they are years behind.

Musk's business model is proving very successful for twitter right enough. SpaceX's business model is to survive on government funding. When he tried to implement the business model he wanted at PayPal he was forced out of the company. But apart from that...

Mmmmm…….Musky Meat

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:10 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:18 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:54 am Amazon's first two Kuiper satellites launch tomorrow.

Their business model is likely to be far more successful, as their approach is similar to how they started AWS.

If by business model you mean 'lose money for years while developing a new technology to capture the market', that looks rather Musk's business model which has been quite successful for him.

Amazon may well be successful but they are years behind.

Musk's business model is proving very successful for twitter right enough. SpaceX's business model is to survive on government funding. When he tried to implement the business model he wanted at PayPal he was forced out of the company. But apart from that...

Twitter was extremely successful using the same plan before Musk got near it.

You have to divorce your completely understandable hatred of Musk from this. Starlink is exactly like a ton of tech and tech-adjacent companies that have all survived for a very long time or have actually captured the market.

Twitter and Tesla are his obsessions and therefore the companies most likely to crater because of his insane micro management and utter lunacy. SpaceX and Starlink largely survive on their own without him overseeing much, a couple of high profile moments of interference aside.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:05 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:10 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:18 am

If by business model you mean 'lose money for years while developing a new technology to capture the market', that looks rather Musk's business model which has been quite successful for him.

Amazon may well be successful but they are years behind.

Musk's business model is proving very successful for twitter right enough. SpaceX's business model is to survive on government funding. When he tried to implement the business model he wanted at PayPal he was forced out of the company. But apart from that...

Twitter was extremely successful using the same plan before Musk got near it.

You have to divorce your completely understandable hatred of Musk from this. Starlink is exactly like a ton of tech and tech-adjacent companies that have all survived for a very long time or have actually captured the market.

Twitter and Tesla are his obsessions and therefore the companies most likely to crater because of his insane micro management and utter lunacy. SpaceX and Starlink largely survive on their own without him overseeing much, a couple of high profile moments of interference aside.

It’s not my hatred of Musk that fundamentally drives this. I work in the space sector, and I don’t think the business plan works. There’s an ongoing capital outlay of $8billion a year. Before any other costs. And that’s perpetual, it’s not setup capital because the satellites have a fixed lifetime and need replaced at roughly the rate he’s going to set up the system. Add everything else on to this and I just don’t see how the business model work, when the competition is already established through different modes, with 5g on the road to being ubiquitous, cable infrastructure being rolled out, the majority of global population now being urban, and other satellite competitors being available soon. The market isn’t there.

It’s not just Musk, I don’t think any of these new satellite internet companies (Oneweb, Lynk, AST) will be successful. Kuiper will probably be ok as Amazon are starting it to run their own network, which gives the capital a different investment profile and allows them to start it the same way as AWS. And the older players like Iridium are more likely to be able to force the market their way for corporates.


Edit - And Musk’s plan for twitter, btw, is exactly the same plan that got him kicked out of PayPal.

What I would like to understand is how they are viable.

Surely hardware only has a limited shelf life, a few years. Before it’s outdated. So they need to perpetually launch more.

So what becomes of these. Do they need regular replacement. I’m assuming there is no robot up there plugging in upgrades.

So are they space-junk forever? Or is there some international obligation to have the thing push back to Earth upon being decommissioned. Burn up, etc.

Biffer wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:14 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:05 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:10 pm

Musk's business model is proving very successful for twitter right enough. SpaceX's business model is to survive on government funding. When he tried to implement the business model he wanted at PayPal he was forced out of the company. But apart from that...

Twitter was extremely successful using the same plan before Musk got near it.

You have to divorce your completely understandable hatred of Musk from this. Starlink is exactly like a ton of tech and tech-adjacent companies that have all survived for a very long time or have actually captured the market.

Twitter and Tesla are his obsessions and therefore the companies most likely to crater because of his insane micro management and utter lunacy. SpaceX and Starlink largely survive on their own without him overseeing much, a couple of high profile moments of interference aside.

It’s not my hatred of Musk that fundamentally drives this. I work in the space sector, and I don’t think the business plan works. There’s an ongoing capital outlay of $8billion a year. Before any other costs. And that’s perpetual, it’s not setup capital because the satellites have a fixed lifetime and need replaced at roughly the rate he’s going to set up the system. Add everything else on to this and I just don’t see how the business model work, when the competition is already established through different modes, with 5g on the road to being ubiquitous, cable infrastructure being rolled out, the majority of global population now being urban, and other satellite competitors being available soon. The market isn’t there.

It’s not just Musk, I don’t think any of these new satellite internet companies (Oneweb, Lynk, AST) will be successful. Kuiper will probably be ok as Amazon are starting it to run their own network, which gives the capital a different investment profile and allows them to start it the same way as AWS. And the older players like Iridium are more likely to be able to force the market their way for corporates.


Edit - And Musk’s plan for twitter, btw, is exactly the same plan that got him kicked out of PayPal.

There are plenty of places in the world that existing companies have no interest in providing useful internet services. While most people's speeds have increased in the last 20 years, if you are in the arse end of nowhere it's pretty much as shit now as it was then. The urban population is not the target market.

Starlink has >$2 billion annual revenue already. They added over $500 million recurring annual revenue in the last 4 months. While you are growing at that rate investors will be lining up to throw money at you.

Starlink's approach is a large number of cheap satellites that need to be replaced. When you also happen to own the lowest cost launch provider this seems like a good strategy.

Biffer wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:14 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:05 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:10 pm

Musk's business model is proving very successful for twitter right enough. SpaceX's business model is to survive on government funding. When he tried to implement the business model he wanted at PayPal he was forced out of the company. But apart from that...

Twitter was extremely successful using the same plan before Musk got near it.

You have to divorce your completely understandable hatred of Musk from this. Starlink is exactly like a ton of tech and tech-adjacent companies that have all survived for a very long time or have actually captured the market.

Twitter and Tesla are his obsessions and therefore the companies most likely to crater because of his insane micro management and utter lunacy. SpaceX and Starlink largely survive on their own without him overseeing much, a couple of high profile moments of interference aside.

It’s not my hatred of Musk that fundamentally drives this. I work in the space sector, and I don’t think the business plan works. There’s an ongoing capital outlay of $8billion a year. Before any other costs. And that’s perpetual, it’s not setup capital because the satellites have a fixed lifetime and need replaced at roughly the rate he’s going to set up the system. Add everything else on to this and I just don’t see how the business model work, when the competition is already established through different modes, with 5g on the road to being ubiquitous, cable infrastructure being rolled out, the majority of global population now being urban, and other satellite competitors being available soon. The market isn’t there.

It’s not just Musk, I don’t think any of these new satellite internet companies (Oneweb, Lynk, AST) will be successful. Kuiper will probably be ok as Amazon are starting it to run their own network, which gives the capital a different investment profile and allows them to start it the same way as AWS. And the older players like Iridium are more likely to be able to force the market their way for corporates.

I'm afraid you are wildly overestimating the reach of reliable broadband worldwide, even before we move beyond the consumer market. 5g is great where it's available but mobile operators are notorious for not giving a shit about coverage outside their main market areas. Satellite and other fixed wireless access technologies have their place and are a decently sized market precisely because fixed line and regular mobile operators cannot provide services in so many places without huge outlay, but pre Starlink technologies have major downsides that Starlink neatly avoids at a cost those companies simply cannot compete with. Starlink can service every one of the existing markets and add a lot more on top due to how the tech works.

I have spoken to tens of satellite ISPs about this across the globe, and four different international telecommunications regulators. Every single one of them thinks Starlink is here to stay, that it represents a fundamental shift in the industry, and that the existing FWA providers are living on borrowed time.

Edit - And Musk’s plan for twitter, btw, is exactly the same plan that got him kicked out of PayPal.

Right, he's obviously ruining Twitter and his ideas are garbage. My point was that pre Musk, Twitter was a very good example of a company that had cornered the market and the fact that they were pissing money to do it made absolutely no difference.