NPR

Now the world cup rankings are going to be much later, in the 4 year cycle when Wales are usually completely shite..(Wales historically are usually fantastic for 2 years, after the world cup and before the lions tours, after the lions tours there is no bottom, players lose fitness and form, put off surguries for them, our head coach disapears for a year causing recrimination amongst players etc).

Ranking Wales when they are deep in their shite period, will ensure the lions tours seriously fuck over Wales, far far more than they do already (and boy they do already).

Is this later ranking the final straw for Wales' participation in the Lions?

Only if it's broadcast by the Beeb and you buy a TV license.

For me it's pretty clear that Wales need to do a benefits analysis of the Lions tours. If participation is harming not just our autumn international chances and our six nations (sometimes for up to 2 years, the lions tours... have even ended dozens of welsh players careers from warburton to gavin henson), and then to be ranked shite, so it is harming our world cup chances aswell.. why wouldn't we?


For the uninitiated.. Wales have never won a six nations after the lions tour since the game turned professional, and usually come 4th or 5th the season after the lions. The Lions destroy welsh rugby, as players so badly want to be lions, they will basically put their entire careers on the line for it (and having the accolade of being a lion). You can set your watch by when Wales are shite, and it always starts after the lions tours.

I mean on the surface, it's all pretty clear..the lions tours are holding Wales back.

Now (with the new ranking thing, and being ranked shite...when we are shite) they will even probably make us as miserable, hard done by and whiney as the f'king Scottish during world cups.

Nothing is worth that.

Yes, but to my way of thinking the whole jamboree is not in the interest of any nation but the host nation.

That said there is for Wales having their national coach pick a lot of Welsh players has boosted the average salary of players in Wales. Take that away and keeping more of them in Wales will perhaps prove harder, one might reasonably not give a shit where players are based, but it's a thing to consider

Could the Lions pull together a starting 15 if they couldn't select a Welshman?

I'd rather they had a XV without any English players (and we're doing out bit there dammit)

Next Lions tour will essentially be Ireland playing against a very mediocre and uninterested Australia. Might as well scrap the whole thing.

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:03 pm Next Lions tour will essentially be Ireland playing against a very mediocre and uninterested Australia. Might as well scrap the whole thing.

Surely the #10 jersey will be up for grabs at anyone one of the 4 home nations? Plus Porter can't scrum legally either.

For me the British and Irish lions is symbolic of the Wales' membership of the U.K Union in general.

For Wales, absolutely nothing good comes of either., we would be far far better off out of both, and when we are shit or negatively affected by either, the English/Scottish and Irish gleefully love it.

The Lions will continue as long as there is money to be made from it
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3048699

Again, should make the point, if a combined SH team was formed, and it had the same effect on any of the constituent teams, as the Lions historicaliy has done on Wales, over the pro era.., it would be disbanded quicker than if Zammit and Nigel Walker had a love child.

They just wouldn't ave it. Can you imagine if New Zealand had hangover seasons and could only ever be any good for 2 years out of 4?

The nation would be f'king furious...

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:44 pm The Lions will continue as long as there is money to be made from it
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3048699

I didn't say the lions isn't a money maker, just said it is absolutely terrible for Welsh rugby to go through this every 4 years.....and now to be ranked shite because of it, and during our predictable, lions hangover seasons, so it drastically affects our pool in the world cup, is just one step too far.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:44 pm The Lions will continue as long as there is money to be made from it
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3048699

I didn't say the lions isn't a money maker, just said it is absolutely terrible for Welsh rugby to go through this every 4 years.....and now to be ranked shite because of it, and during our predictable, lions hangover seasons, so it drastically affects our pool in the world cup, is just one step too far.

If you can't beat Aus and or Fiji to get to a quarter final you simply don't deserve to be in a quarter final.

if it keeps Gatland out of the hotseat, then yes.

I can see we are getting deep into the weeds here..

So deep I cannot read your posts.

But for me the crucial thing is Player desire. How many players would reject playing for Wales and play for England, Scotland and Ireland, because they have a massive hard'on for Bbbbrrritain and want to play for old Big Ears, Baldy and golly gosh..and for bbbbrrritains establishment?

How much of a private school aspiration is it to play for The Lions?

For Warburton it was massive. If Wales were out of the Lions..he probably would have he gone next door.

Lots of questions.

But you have to weigh that ultimately against how shite Wales are for 2 years after the lions tour, and how reliant we should be on players whos' professional priorities and aspirations are to play for another entity completely.. I would swap 4 years of being decent, honest, and with passionate hardy proper welshmen..who would fight and die for Wales..than two years of being shite, and I mean embarrassingly, monumentally shite.. and ranked shite for world cups, where we are out in the group stages (like Scotland).

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:00 pm I can see we are getting deep into the weeds here..

So deep I cannot read your posts.

But for me the crucial thing is Player desire. How many players would reject playing for Wales and play for Scotland and Ireland, because they have a massive hard'on for Bbbbrrritain and want to play for old Big Ears, Baldy and golly gosh..and for bbbbrrritains establishment?

How much of a private school aspiration is it to play for The Lions?

For Warburton it was massive. If Wales were out of the Lions..he probably would have he gone next door.

Lots of questions.

But you have to weigh that ultimately against how shite Wales are for 2 years after the lions tour, and how reliant we should be on players whos' professional priorities and aspirations are to play for another entity completely.. I would swap 4 years of being decent, honest, and with passionate hardy proper welshmen..who would fight and die for Wales..than two years of being shite, and I mean embarrassingly, monumentally shite.. and ranked shite for world cups, where we are out in the group stages.

Whilst I appreciate your continuing stand up, it's all pish as Wales are the bookies favourites for a World Cup semi-final spot. So there isn't a single piece of logic in your post.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:44 pm The Lions will continue as long as there is money to be made from it
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3048699

I didn't say the lions isn't a money maker, just said it is absolutely terrible for Welsh rugby to go through this every 4 years.....and now to be ranked shite because of it, and during our predictable, lions hangover seasons, so it drastically affects our pool in the world cup, is just one step too far.

The point remains that as long as it's a money spinner, the Lions tour will be part of the rugby calendar. The players who are eligible hold it as the greatest selection achievement, those who play against the Lions hold it as a massive part of their career.

The players want it, the fans want it - look at the income the Lions tourism brings to the host country, the sponsors and tv companies recognise this and are happy to fork out for exclusive rights for their brand to be associated with that of the B&I Lions.

This is a business now, as I said before in a different way, the only thing that will stop the Lions is if it, as a business, loses money. This is professional sport, the genie is out of the bottle etc, iirc the unions get money from he tours based on how many players they have on tour, the players themselves get well paid. The unions aren't going to be against the concept.

It's all about the bottom line.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:20 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:44 pm The Lions will continue as long as there is money to be made from it
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3048699

I didn't say the lions isn't a money maker, just said it is absolutely terrible for Welsh rugby to go through this every 4 years.....and now to be ranked shite because of it, and during our predictable, lions hangover seasons, so it drastically affects our pool in the world cup, is just one step too far.

The point remains that as long as it's a money spinner, the Lions tour will be part of the rugby calendar. The players who are eligible hold it as the greatest selection achievement, those who play against the Lions hold it as a massive part of their career.

The players want it, the fans want it - look at the income the Lions tourism brings to the host country, the sponsors and tv companies recognise this and are happy to fork out for exclusive rights for their brand to be associated with that of the B&I Lions.

This is a business now, as I said before in a different way, the only thing that will stop the Lions is if it, as a business, loses money. This is professional sport, the genie is out of the bottle etc, iirc the unions get money from he tours based on how many players they have on tour, the players themselves get well paid. The unions aren't going to be against the concept.

It's all about the bottom line.

Yup, I try to educate fans all the time about rugby being a money making business, a lot lose sight of this fact. Flags and anthems kinda do that to them

All of that doesn't mean Wales shouldn't pull out, though...because Wales and its national sport, is far far more important to the nation of Wales, than wsay Sam Warburtons establishment arse licking and his Lions OBE.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:20 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:30 pm
I didn't say the lions isn't a money maker, just said it is absolutely terrible for Welsh rugby to go through this every 4 years.....and now to be ranked shite because of it, and during our predictable, lions hangover seasons, so it drastically affects our pool in the world cup, is just one step too far.

The point remains that as long as it's a money spinner, the Lions tour will be part of the rugby calendar. The players who are eligible hold it as the greatest selection achievement, those who play against the Lions hold it as a massive part of their career.

The players want it, the fans want it - look at the income the Lions tourism brings to the host country, the sponsors and tv companies recognise this and are happy to fork out for exclusive rights for their brand to be associated with that of the B&I Lions.

This is a business now, as I said before in a different way, the only thing that will stop the Lions is if it, as a business, loses money. This is professional sport, the genie is out of the bottle etc, iirc the unions get money from he tours based on how many players they have on tour, the players themselves get well paid. The unions aren't going to be against the concept.

It's all about the bottom line.

Yup, I try to educate fans all the time about rugby being a money making business, a lot lose sight of this fact. Flags and anthems kinda do that to them

All of that doesn't mean Wales shouldn't pull out, though...because Wales and its national sport, is far far more important to the nation of Wales, than Sam Warburtons establishment arse licking and his Lions OBE.

I seem to remember that last time I looked that Swansea City and Cardiff city get way more fans each week than Scarlets or Cardiff Blues do, possibly more than them plus Ospreys and Dragons combined.

I'd wager that Gareth Bale has a far higher profile in Wales than Sam Warburton.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:36 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:20 pm


The point remains that as long as it's a money spinner, the Lions tour will be part of the rugby calendar. The players who are eligible hold it as the greatest selection achievement, those who play against the Lions hold it as a massive part of their career.

The players want it, the fans want it - look at the income the Lions tourism brings to the host country, the sponsors and tv companies recognise this and are happy to fork out for exclusive rights for their brand to be associated with that of the B&I Lions.

This is a business now, as I said before in a different way, the only thing that will stop the Lions is if it, as a business, loses money. This is professional sport, the genie is out of the bottle etc, iirc the unions get money from he tours based on how many players they have on tour, the players themselves get well paid. The unions aren't going to be against the concept.

It's all about the bottom line.

Yup, I try to educate fans all the time about rugby being a money making business, a lot lose sight of this fact. Flags and anthems kinda do that to them

All of that doesn't mean Wales shouldn't pull out, though...because Wales and its national sport, is far far more important to the nation of Wales, than Sam Warburtons establishment arse licking and his Lions OBE.

I seem to remember that last time I looked that Swansea City and Cardiff city get way more fans each week than Scarlets or Cardiff Blues do, possibly more than them plus Ospreys and Dragons combined.

I'd wager that Gareth Bale has a far higher profile in Wales than Sam Warburton.

Nah.
So if Wales wasn't crap for 2 seasons out of 4 (because of the regular, set your watch by them lions tours " hangover seasons") I am guessing Wales would be far far better placed to capture the hearts and minds of the youngsters.. Walking out of the stadium having lost to Georgia or Italy (all the bad shite happens during this period) can't be very inspiring. Now we will be ranked when we are shite, and put on the tough side of whatever group during world cup, because "Lions Tours".

There is a lot of money made by the Lions, but for the host nation, the Lions admin/blazers and the Lions players. Not really very much is made for the home unions, although more recently sponsorship is just starting to chip in with more significance.

So we've the interesting aspect the players want it, a great many fans want it, but it's not making significant money for and is otherwise a significant hindrance to the unions who supply the touring players.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:51 pm There is a lot of money made by the Lions, but for the host nation, the Lions admin/blazers and the Lions players. Not really very much is made for the home unions, although more recently sponsorship is just starting to chip in with more significance.

So we've the interesting aspect the players want it, a great many fans want it, but it's not making significant money for and is otherwise a significant hindrance to the unions who supply the touring players.

The cubs get money for the players, last time out there was dispute from prem club owners saying it didn't cover the players' salaries and they were talking about withholding players

https://archive.ph/0p5F1

But not much, £70k or so. Which is the same as the players pretty much, but practically it changes very little.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:39 pm But not much, £70k or so. Which is the same as the players pretty much, but practically it changes very little.

The players get paid on top of what the clubs get.

If you were given the option, wouldn't you want to play for the Lions?

Depends how rich I was, and if good enough how serious about being good for England. Basically my answer would change depending

It's not nothing at a player level, but it's also not much of anything at a union level which is where it isn't making money, and for a significant player. Clearly the host unions have wriggle room there in terms of TV rights and more particularly ticket sales to change how much the home unions take is, but our home unions wouldn't be overly keen to introduce an idea of splitting the take with touring sides, there is the Lions only tour one way, but still it's a prickly area