NPR

Please no. Make it stop. It's already dead. Have mercy.

Fúck off, and when you get there, fúck off again.

On one side you have English rugby fans, they are no different to any other rugby fans from any other nation, they are as sound and as wankerish as any.

On the other, the owners of the clubs in England, the ones who wanted to distance themselves from the RFU and insisted the European Cup was realigned to their wants, fuck everyone else, fuck all the historic English clubs who made the game what it is, the ones who were called Football clubs because they predated codification, fuck all them, it was all about their own little plaything and now they want bailed out.

Nah, no thanks.

I've seen nothing on the finances, but as a supporter URC is a good watch. It's plastic given the spread of countries, but Super Rugby was plastic for the same reason and did very well for decades. Geographically concentrating Super Rugby in Aus/NZ hasn't improved the interest or quality so far.

Different iterations of Super Rugby have proven competition format strongly influences success or failure. It needs to be easily understood and seen as fair. URC uses the format from the better iterations of Super Rugby, every side competing on the same log playing every other side once, with additional matches against sides from the same country. If the URC wants more money, the simplest way is to increase the amount of teams from the already competing countries and/or add a rebadged T2 national team (Portuguese Pilchards etc), the downside is increasing the number of teams places pressure on the competition format.

Adding 10 English clubs kills the URC outright. It would be an entirely new competition format. From that article:

The Premiership currently consists of 10 clubs following the financial demise of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish last season, while the URC has 16 clubs. The next stage of the negotiations is to look at how integration of the two leagues would work
.
“It is complicated, but one proposal would be for two leagues based on merit, and promotion and relegation between the two, or two conferences – a Premiership and URC one, to qualify for knockout stages,” said another source close to the talks.

I seriously doubt Italian and SA sides would be wanted, but both these competition formats would be a downgrade. An upper and lower division would decrease derby matches, the two Scottish sides may never play each other, for Ireland and SA a full set of home/away derby matches has a value which may exceed playing English clubs (I would value Sharks home/away matches against the Lions over a single match against any English club). Whilst the alternative option of playing Premiership sides in the playoffs for the first time is just stupid, to win the URC a side would have to defeat teams from the Premiership, a mess.

Even if SA and Italy were got rid of, that's still 20 teams it would be difficult to accommodate whilst preserving the URC's competition format. The disproportionate amount of English sides would be the main problem. But I wouldn't be interested then anyway of course.

This looks like Premiership club owners worrying about the viability of their business model, and rather than cutting their cloth accordingly they're chasing Welsh TV money. Things get interesting if there's a split among URC nations. SA would be wise to stick with the Irish, I saw Mark Alexander (SARU president) sitting with other admin types during the Ireland v NZ match.

The URC is a great competition.

Why would they include 10 English clubs but only 4 SA teams?

Some of the english posters here must feel kak. They hate the Saffers so much and now their clubs wants to share in the URC success.

Must be a vokken nightmare for the tedious nose in the air fuckers.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:49 am The URC is a great competition.

Why would they include 10 English clubs but only 4 SA teams?

Oom, SA does not have the depth to add more teams to such a competitive tournament.

Chilli wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:56 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:49 am The URC is a great competition.

Why would they include 10 English clubs but only 4 SA teams?

Oom, SA does not have the depth to add more teams to such a competitive tournament.

If its a knock out competition (look like) and the likes of Italian and Wales clubs is involve, why not?

I can see any prime English/Irish/SA/Scots clubs getting knocked out in Kimberley/Nelspruit or Osfontein.

Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.


This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Also worth a reminder that Jones is a professional contrarian. He used to, perhaps still does, I don't really read his stuff, maintain that Juan Maritin Hernandez was the world's best fly half.

I don't really see how this works if the intent is to fold all 10 English clubs in.

It also makes the European cups utterly pointless.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Oh no, you are blind like fuck. SA contribute the highest attendances and TV audience in the URC.

Across Round 10 and 11 of the United Rugby Championship close to a quarter of a million fans attended 16 games where the average attendance was 12,500. South Africa had the highest attendance by country with 95,538 fans attending the four derby matches in Cape Town and Durban.



This was followed by 65,873 in Ireland with one game apiece played in Belfast, Dublin, Galway and Limerick while in Wales there were two sell-outs and a season high attendance (Ospreys) across Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Swansea among the 40,753 attendees.

Top 10 Most Watched Matches in Regular Season

DHL Stormers v Munster 688,903
Connacht v Cell C Sharks 584,765
Ulster v DHL Stormers 543,964
Emirates Lions v Leinster 503,228
Cell C Sharks v DHL Stormers 501,618
Ulster v Vodacom Bulls 495,527
Cell C Sharks v Ospreys 493,776
DHL Stormers v Vodacom Bulls 490,829
Leinster v Munster 456,559
Vodacom Bulls v Cardiff 448,654

This is a fucking moronic idea. If you include the English clubs in URC, what happens?

1. You get rid of the money for the English TV deal, and combine it with the URC. Does anyone think the one combined league deal will be bigger than the sum of the two deals?

2. European cup is done for. So the combined deal now needs to be worth more than the URC deals, the English Premiership deals and the Champions Cup deals combined.

3. That's a league that will have 26 teams. How's that structured? The immediate response will be two divisions. So immediately we reduce the number of clubs playing top level rugby in Britain and Ireland to maybe eight.

4. And after five years the spivs will mutter about the league being dragged down by the second division. And they'll cast it adrift. And the number of full time pro clubs will be halved.

They've fucked their own rugby, now they want to fuck everyone else's They can fuck off.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:30 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Oh no, you are blind like fuck. SA contribute the highest attendances and TV audience in the URC.

Across Round 10 and 11 of the United Rugby Championship close to a quarter of a million fans attended 16 games where the average attendance was 12,500. South Africa had the highest attendance by country with 95,538 fans attending the four derby matches in Cape Town and Durban.



This was followed by 65,873 in Ireland with one game apiece played in Belfast, Dublin, Galway and Limerick while in Wales there were two sell-outs and a season high attendance (Ospreys) across Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Swansea among the 40,753 attendees.

Top 10 Most Watched Matches in Regular Season

DHL Stormers v Munster 688,903
Connacht v Cell C Sharks 584,765
Ulster v DHL Stormers 543,964
Emirates Lions v Leinster 503,228
Cell C Sharks v DHL Stormers 501,618
Ulster v Vodacom Bulls 495,527
Cell C Sharks v Ospreys 493,776
DHL Stormers v Vodacom Bulls 490,829
Leinster v Munster 456,559
Vodacom Bulls v Cardiff 448,654

Sorry, I mean in terms of flying out there.

The European cups are a bit of a mess and lost a lot of interest. English rugby mostly due to covid and partly Saracens (pushing salary caps up and be able to run at a loss) is in a bad financial place. The RFU decision to destroy English youth pathway system has been disastrous. Trashing domestic rugby further will just lose support. The league is actually entertaining and competitive (unlike the national team).

Bad timing for the English rugby team to be bad as the English cricket team are decent and entertaining and the English football team is the best it has been in my lifetime* and should win 1 of the next 2 major tournaments.

*considerably better than the so called golden generation of
Beckham, Gerrard et al who were massively overrated.

Edit: these things are partly cyclical and we are just at the down point of a cycle.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:38 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:30 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Oh no, you are blind like fuck. SA contribute the highest attendances and TV audience in the URC.

Across Round 10 and 11 of the United Rugby Championship close to a quarter of a million fans attended 16 games where the average attendance was 12,500. South Africa had the highest attendance by country with 95,538 fans attending the four derby matches in Cape Town and Durban.



This was followed by 65,873 in Ireland with one game apiece played in Belfast, Dublin, Galway and Limerick while in Wales there were two sell-outs and a season high attendance (Ospreys) across Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Swansea among the 40,753 attendees.

Top 10 Most Watched Matches in Regular Season

DHL Stormers v Munster 688,903
Connacht v Cell C Sharks 584,765
Ulster v DHL Stormers 543,964
Emirates Lions v Leinster 503,228
Cell C Sharks v DHL Stormers 501,618
Ulster v Vodacom Bulls 495,527
Cell C Sharks v Ospreys 493,776
DHL Stormers v Vodacom Bulls 490,829
Leinster v Munster 456,559
Vodacom Bulls v Cardiff 448,654

Sorry, I mean in terms of flying out there.

I also think SA supporters will attend/watch SA vs England matches. There is that rivalry between the countries. Saffers playing there like Jasper Wiese and AE.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.

It's just amusing, he was always the biggest Prem cheerleader.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Going by social media (I know), the only group of Celts that seem really keen are some Welsh. There seems to be a split among the Welsh who want to continue with the URC, and those who want to join the Prem.

Focusing purely on the mechanics of how the competition format will work, the problem I can see is there's too many English teams. Adding Celtic sides (it seems more like the Prem sides are going cap in hand to the URC, or trying to break up the URC, but anyway) makes home/away unviable in a single log format, only adding the Welsh means 14 teams in a 26 match regular season. Having a Celt conference and a English conference would need all the teams from Ireland/Wales/Scotland to work, after home/away conference games you're 18 regular season matches in so the cross conference regular season is going to be short, for Celts it will feel like winning the URC means beating Prem sides that only pop up for the playoffs. The third option is upper and lower divisions, but that means weaker Irish/Welsh/Scottish sides not getting matches against strong enough sides to develop their players, whilst their top sides spend half their time in England.

Convincing the Irish seems to be the toughest job, if they say "no" to Prem clubs it opens the option for the Scots to say "no" too (only having two sides, means bags of Prem money can go further and may shift them, but if Ireland decline they can too). Ireland refusing along with SA and Italian sides leaves the URC viable, regardless of if the Welsh or Scots are in or not. If Ireland accept the Prem clubs then the URC is over, there's no remaining partner large and strong enough for SA to continue the project with.

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:47 am The European cups are a bit of a mess and lost a lot of interest. English rugby mostly due to covid and partly Saracens (pushing salary caps up and be able to run at a loss) is in a bad financial place. The RFU decision to destroy English youth pathway system has been disastrous. Trashing domestic rugby further will just lose support. The league is actually entertaining and competitive (unlike the national team).

Bad timing for the English rugby team to be bad as the English cricket team are decent and entertaining and the English football team is the best it has been in my lifetime* and should win 1 of the next 2 major tournaments.

*considerably better than the so called golden generation of
Beckham, Gerrard et al who were massively overrated.

Edit: these things are partly cyclical and we are just at the down point of a cycle.

PRL and McCafferty destroyed the HEC.

Remember they were going to have 5 main sponsors each paying what Heineken at the time were paying ?

Instead they ended up with Heineken as the one main sponsor paying less than half of what it paid previously.

Have the accounts of the Swiss based Spiv Rugby (Europe) Ltd. ever been published ?

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.

It's just amusing, he was always the biggest Prem cheerleader.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

Going by social media (I know), the only group of Celts that seem really keen are some Welsh. There seems to be a split among the Welsh who want to continue with the URC, and those who want to join the Prem.

Focusing purely on the mechanics of how the competition format will work, the problem I can see is there's too many English teams. Adding Celtic sides (it seems more like the Prem sides are going cap in hand to the URC, or trying to break up the URC, but anyway) makes home/away unviable in a single log format, only adding the Welsh means 14 teams in a 26 match regular season. Having a Celt conference and a English conference would need all the teams from Ireland/Wales/Scotland to work, after home/away conference games you're 18 regular season matches in so the cross conference regular season is going to be short, for Celts it will feel like winning the URC means beating Prem sides that only pop up for the playoffs. The third option is upper and lower divisions, but that means weaker Irish/Welsh/Scottish sides not getting matches against strong enough sides to develop their players, whilst their top sides spend half their time in England.

Convincing the Irish seems to be the toughest job, if they say "no" to Prem clubs it opens the option for the Scots to say "no" too (only having two sides, means bags of Prem money can go further and may shift them, but if Ireland decline they can too). Ireland refusing along with SA and Italian sides leaves the URC viable, regardless of if the Welsh or Scots are in or not. If Ireland accept the Prem clubs then the URC is over, there's no remaining partner large and strong enough for SA to continue the project with.

You have to bear in mind there is both principled opposition as we see on here and hand down the trousers schadenfreude opposition on twitter etc, which is deeply misplaced as no one is particularly rosy right now.

Engaging with this league as I suspect it will happen:
1) I’d say the best model would be NFL style divisions/conferences
2) as Oom alludes to, it probably makes sense financially and otherwise for the Saffer teams to play a lot of the English ones.

Fwiw I will miss the prem dearly, for all its financial issues there is no league that provides such close games with so many tries so regularly. But I do see the logic of this as an endpoint

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.


This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

The nascent years of the Celtic league was the time to explore this idea and while it is probably the best hope for long term viable success, I just can't see how it could happen.

A two tier structure just isn't viable - when you're struggling to make ends meet at the top table how are you going to run a full second tier off the scraps? It's just not feasible.

PornDog wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.


This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

The nascent years of the Celtic league was the time to explore this idea and while it is probably the best hope for long term viable success, I just can't see how it could happen.

A two tier structure just isn't viable - when you're struggling to make ends meet at the top table how are you going to run a full second tier off the scraps? It's just not feasible.

Dragons v Falcons on a cold, wet night in Newport!!!!
I'd certainly like to see some of the Prem sides playing Leinster, Munster and the Saffer teams regularly but it's pie in the sky and as you it ain't economically feasible.

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

What pressure can they apply?

£230m is a lot, using URC teams to fill that hole would take minimum 5 years, and if the competition format is poor then the competition itself is cooked by the end of it.

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

This is a good point. Where else have they put money, it's not just England is it? I can't remember.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:15 am You have to bear in mind there is both principled opposition as we see on here and hand down the trousers schadenfreude opposition on twitter etc, which is deeply misplaced as no one is particularly rosy right now.

Engaging with this league as I suspect it will happen:
1) I’d say the best model would be NFL style divisions/conferences
2) as Oom alludes to, it probably makes sense financially and otherwise for the Saffer teams to play a lot of the English ones.

Fwiw I will miss the prem dearly, for all its financial issues there is no league that provides such close games with so many tries so regularly. But I do see the logic of this as an endpoint

The original Super Rugby recipe is the only proven way to run a cross region competition using a league format (not a cup comp). Basically it needs a selection of strong sides, as SaintK says Dragons v Falcons isn't that appealing, and the competition format needs to be simple.

I would be a bit weary of NFL style conferences because rugby supporters aren't used to them. Super Rugby conferences ended up a disaster, with it being incredibly difficult to explain how they worked/how the cross conference games worked/how playoff qualification worked. I thought entirely separate conferences were the way forward in Super Rugby, but it turned out there was a strong desire among a lot of people (especially Aussies) for every team to be part of the same log and for every team to directly compete against the others for playoff places. It was widely seen as unfair (particularly by Kiwis) that each conference was allotted a quota of qualifying slots. Which all made having a lot of teams in a single competition impossible and ended up rolling back expansion.

CVC bought 28% of Urc for $170 million. They also bought 15% of the six nations for £363 million.

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:03 am CVC bought 28% of Urc for $170 million. They also bought 15% of the six nations for £363 million.

Right, for all of this we’ve all sold out to them and they’ll call the shots. Hence it’s probably time just to get used to the idea

PornDog wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:55 am Probably worth another reminder that Stephen Jones isn’t English.


This has been on the cards/borderline inevitable for some time. I see the value in an B&I league but can’t see how the finances stack up with SA and Italy for us.

The nascent years of the Celtic league was the time to explore this idea and while it is probably the best hope for long term viable success, I just can't see how it could happen.

A two tier structure just isn't viable - when you're struggling to make ends meet at the top table how are you going to run a full second tier off the scraps? It's just not feasible.

Two tiers would screw Scottish pro rugby, the derby at Murrayfield is its best commercial product/opportunity and could potentially disappear from the calendar for seasons at a time.

I can't imagine the Irish teams being keen to lose some of the interpros either

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:34 am This is a fucking moronic idea. If you include the English clubs in URC, what happens?

1. You get rid of the money for the English TV deal, and combine it with the URC. Does anyone think the one combined league deal will be bigger than the sum of the two deals?

2. European cup is done for. So the combined deal now needs to be worth more than the URC deals, the English Premiership deals and the Champions Cup deals combined.

3. That's a league that will have 26 teams. How's that structured? The immediate response will be two divisions. So immediately we reduce the number of clubs playing top level rugby in Britain and Ireland to maybe eight.

4. And after five years the spivs will mutter about the league being dragged down by the second division. And they'll cast it adrift. And the number of full time pro clubs will be halved.

They've fucked their own rugby, now they want to fuck everyone else's They can fuck off.

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:18 am

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:03 am CVC bought 28% of Urc for $170 million. They also bought 15% of the six nations for £363 million.

Right, for all of this we’ve all sold out to them and they’ll call the shots. Hence it’s probably time just to get used to the idea

I had no idea they had bought in to the URC as well! They will certainly have a major say in what happens.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:34 am This is a fucking moronic idea. If you include the English clubs in URC, what happens?

1. You get rid of the money for the English TV deal, and combine it with the URC. Does anyone think the one combined league deal will be bigger than the sum of the two deals?

2. European cup is done for. So the combined deal now needs to be worth more than the URC deals, the English Premiership deals and the Champions Cup deals combined.

3. That's a league that will have 26 teams. How's that structured? The immediate response will be two divisions. So immediately we reduce the number of clubs playing top level rugby in Britain and Ireland to maybe eight.

4. And after five years the spivs will mutter about the league being dragged down by the second division. And they'll cast it adrift. And the number of full time pro clubs will be halved.

They've fucked their own rugby, now they want to fuck everyone else's They can fuck off.

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Bloody hell! Thats a bit of a reach. How can any club asset strip when they've got no money?

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:34 am This is a fucking moronic idea. If you include the English clubs in URC, what happens?

1. You get rid of the money for the English TV deal, and combine it with the URC. Does anyone think the one combined league deal will be bigger than the sum of the two deals?

2. European cup is done for. So the combined deal now needs to be worth more than the URC deals, the English Premiership deals and the Champions Cup deals combined.

3. That's a league that will have 26 teams. How's that structured? The immediate response will be two divisions. So immediately we reduce the number of clubs playing top level rugby in Britain and Ireland to maybe eight.

4. And after five years the spivs will mutter about the league being dragged down by the second division. And they'll cast it adrift. And the number of full time pro clubs will be halved.

They've fucked their own rugby, now they want to fuck everyone else's They can fuck off.

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:10 am

Chilli wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:56 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:49 am The URC is a great competition.

Why would they include 10 English clubs but only 4 SA teams?

Oom, SA does not have the depth to add more teams to such a competitive tournament.

If its a knock out competition (look like) and the likes of Italian and Wales clubs is involve, why not?

I can see any prime English/Irish/SA/Scots clubs getting knocked out in Kimberley/Nelspruit or Osfontein.

Do you not remember Super 18 rugby? With 2 conferences etc?


Its a bad idea.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:34 am This is a fucking moronic idea. If you include the English clubs in URC, what happens?

1. You get rid of the money for the English TV deal, and combine it with the URC. Does anyone think the one combined league deal will be bigger than the sum of the two deals?

2. European cup is done for. So the combined deal now needs to be worth more than the URC deals, the English Premiership deals and the Champions Cup deals combined.

3. That's a league that will have 26 teams. How's that structured? The immediate response will be two divisions. So immediately we reduce the number of clubs playing top level rugby in Britain and Ireland to maybe eight.

4. And after five years the spivs will mutter about the league being dragged down by the second division. And they'll cast it adrift. And the number of full time pro clubs will be halved.

They've fucked their own rugby, now they want to fuck everyone else's They can fuck off.

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

Welcome to our world.

Seems an incredibly difficult thing to pull off. It will come down to money and CVC will have a huge say.

2 tier is surely a non-starter unless each of the URC Nations is willing to write off one of their teams and the Premiership halves their representation.

24 in conferences / shields would be the absolute maximum, which would leave room to add 2 x 4 English sides. Unless the Welsh are willing to ditch a team and absorb Bristol into their group to make it 9 English?

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

SPL is surely a poor example as it is a separate league. There’s a decent chance the old firm + Aberdeen + Hearts and Hibs would be much more attractive investment opportunities if they were in the English set up a la Wrexham, Cardiff etc

Why the feck, beyond CVC not liking to lose money, would the URC do anything for English Premiership rugby. Let the Spivs go bust, and then talk to the RFU if both sides are still interested.

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:32 am Why the feck, beyond CVC not liking to lose money, would the URC do anything for English Premiership rugby. Let the Spivs go bust, and then talk to the RFU if both sides are still interested.

That would be my approach.

If the Urc wants to partner with someone, speak to the French and stitch up European rug y so the English just have to do what they're told.

But there's the problem. The English will never accept being told what to do by the French and the Irish.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

Can you explain where this money is coming from?
Apart from Finn Russell (and Redpath?) the last team Scotland put out had no other English based players.
You cannot possibly equate rugby with football the difference between the two is enormous.