NPR

This is from memory, correct me if I am wrong - Will Carling was obviously captain for half the decade until he was sacked in 1995 over the infamous "old farts" comment. Upon Carling's retirement De Glanville became captain. He was replaced by Dallaglio who ended up being stripped of the captaincy in the summer of 1999 after that cocaine sting by the Mail on Sunday and then finally Johnson took his place who would captain England through to the 2003 RWC.

A few things - Looking back De Glanville was a strange choice as captain, what was the thinking there? Was it the connection with him being a Bath player and Jack Rowell being the England coach at that time? Was he given the role on a sort of place holder basis until a better candidate came along? De Glanville wasn't exactly an outstanding player and doesn't strike me as a leader of men, it was a strange appointment.

How was Johnson passed over in favour of Dallaglio in the first place when he was older than Dallaglio, had a RWC, two Lions tours under his belt (one as captain) and had been a regular in the England side since 1994? By any measure he was the senior player of the two. Was this a case of Woodward trying to be unorthodox and clever and not picking the obvious choice?

All in all it's just funny to look back now and consider how long it took Johnson to assume the captaincy when all along you think that he should have been earmarked for the role when he first came onto the scene.

Think Carling was re'instated and carried on as Captain after that incident, when everyone in the English team refused his job.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:11 pm Thing Carling was re'instated and carried on as Captain after that incident, when everyone in the English team refused his job.

I didn't know that. Did they do that in solidarity with him so the RFU had no choice but to reinstate Carling?

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:17 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:11 pm Thing Carling was re'instated and carried on as Captain after that incident, when everyone in the English team refused his job.

I didn't know that. Did they do that in solidarity with him so the RFU had no choice but to reinstate Carling?

Yup, I believe so...well so he says anyway.

His interview on House of Rugby is quite entertaining.

As an aside the appointment of Carling in the first place was a bit out of left field when you consider the pack of that era consisted of Richards, Winterbottom & Moore. I think I read somewhere that Moore and some of those forwards did not think Carling worthy of the captaincy and treated him pretty poorly because of that resentment.

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm As an aside the appointment of Carling in the first place was a bit out of left field when you consider the pack of that era consisted of Richards, Winterbottom & Moore. I think I read somewhere that Moore and some of those forwards did not think Carling worthy of the captaincy and treated him pretty poorly because of that resentment.

Not really a notable story. If you are young and put in a position of leadership over older guys, chances are they will not like it and challenge you at every turn. Doubt it even compared to what a eighteen year old me got, when I was put in charge of five forty plus year olds in British steel.

Me..Yeah, jonesy, you have to take the coil off mate, it is no good,
Jonesy; Nope, not doing that, I just put it on, walks away..
Me: sigh "hits emergency stop button"....waits.

Right lads let's get that fucker..grab his legs and we'll dangle him over the pit.

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:17 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:11 pm Thing Carling was re'instated and carried on as Captain after that incident, when everyone in the English team refused his job.

I didn't know that. Did they do that in solidarity with him so the RFU had no choice but to reinstate Carling?

The RFU offered the captaincy to several players, but most refused immediately. IIRC Ben Clarke accepted initially, until he was told by his team mates not to be so stupid.

It wasn’t just the difficulty of finding a replacement that persuaded the RFU to reinstate Carling. There was widespread outrage at their decision and they quickly realised they had badly misjudged. When the RFU Chairman was introduced at the Pilkington cup final that year, he was loudly booed by the crowd, and I think that reaction shocked them.

Lobby wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:53 pm

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:17 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:11 pm Thing Carling was re'instated and carried on as Captain after that incident, when everyone in the English team refused his job.

I didn't know that. Did they do that in solidarity with him so the RFU had no choice but to reinstate Carling?

The RFU offered the captaincy to several players, but most refused immediately. IIRC Ben Clarke accepted initially, until he was told by his team mates not to be so stupid.

It wasn’t just the difficulty of finding a replacement that persuaded the RFU to reinstate Carling. There was widespread outrage at their decision and they quickly realised they had badly misjudged. When the RFU Chairman was introduced at the Pilkington cup final that year, he was loudly booed by the crowd, and I think that reaction shocked them.

They crowd also chanted Carlings name - the sentiment was so obvious even the RFU couldn’t miss it.

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pmA few things - Looking back De Glanville was a strange choice as captain, what was the thinking there? Was it the connection with him being a Bath player and Jack Rowell being the England coach at that time? Was he given the role on a sort of place holder basis until a better candidate came along? De Glanville wasn't exactly an outstanding player and doesn't strike me as a leader of men, it was a strange appointment.

Wasn't it just a case of him being "the right sort of chap"

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:47 pm

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pmA few things - Looking back De Glanville was a strange choice as captain, what was the thinking there? Was it the connection with him being a Bath player and Jack Rowell being the England coach at that time? Was he given the role on a sort of place holder basis until a better candidate came along? De Glanville wasn't exactly an outstanding player and doesn't strike me as a leader of men, it was a strange appointment.

Wasn't it just a case of him being "the right sort of chap"

It was also odd because it made him undroppable even when he wasn’t the best centre available, and led to madness such as picking Guscott on the wing.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:47 pm

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pmA few things - Looking back De Glanville was a strange choice as captain, what was the thinking there? Was it the connection with him being a Bath player and Jack Rowell being the England coach at that time? Was he given the role on a sort of place holder basis until a better candidate came along? De Glanville wasn't exactly an outstanding player and doesn't strike me as a leader of men, it was a strange appointment.

Wasn't it just a case of him being "the right sort of chap"

I reckon so.

WRT Dallallililigliglio and Johnson, I think it was Woodward persuading himself he was being smart but actually not wanting someone who’d be very willing to disagree with him.

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm As an aside the appointment of Carling in the first place was a bit out of left field when you consider the pack of that era consisted of Richards, Winterbottom & Moore. I think I read somewhere that Moore and some of those forwards did not think Carling worthy of the captaincy and treated him pretty poorly because of that resentment.

There are a couple of podcasts out there of him discussing this (think one is on the BBC) which are very entertaining. He was horrified and didn't want to do it - I seem to remember him saying even his mum was telling him to run away. He says senior players basically ignored him and did their own thing at the beginning but he eventually won them round.

He comes across as a top bloke. Personally I've had a huge amount of respect for the guy since the '93 Lions tour when he was treated very badly but was about the only midweek player who gave his all in the games.

Slick wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:21 am

Hugo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm As an aside the appointment of Carling in the first place was a bit out of left field when you consider the pack of that era consisted of Richards, Winterbottom & Moore. I think I read somewhere that Moore and some of those forwards did not think Carling worthy of the captaincy and treated him pretty poorly because of that resentment.

There are a couple of podcasts out there of him discussing this (think one is on the BBC) which are very entertaining. He was horrified and didn't want to do it - I seem to remember him saying even his mum was telling him to run away. He says senior players basically ignored him and did their own thing at the beginning but he eventually won them round.

He comes across as a top bloke. Personally I've had a huge amount of respect for the guy since the '93 Lions tour when he was treated very badly but was about the only midweek player who gave his all in the games.

Yeah, I have always had a lot of time for Carling. Not heard the podcast - thanks for the steer.

Was the De Glanville choice just trying to replace Carling MKII? Was he captain at Bath? They were unbeatable those day.

I think Dallaglio had the personality perhaps more outspoken than Johnson. He was a very good captain.

Dallaglio was a pretty inspirational captain, I don't think it was a left-field choice to prefer him over Johnson. Both were great candidates, it could easily have boiled down to a preference regarding how one handled training/prematch stuff compared to the other.

CrazyIslander wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 am Was the De Glanville choice just trying to replace Carling MKII? Was he captain at Bath? They were unbeatable those day.

I think Dallaglio had the personality perhaps more outspoken than Johnson. He was a very good captain.

Jack Rowell, the new England coach, was the previous Bath coach, which may be one reason.

Ironically I can remember people (my Dad) in the later Carling era grumbling that we couldn't pick England's best centre combination, De Glanville & Guscott, because Carling was captain. The moment De Glanville was captain we were grumbling that we couldn't pick Carling & Guscott any more. As I recall Carling was in a rich vein of form.

Mahoney wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:48 am

CrazyIslander wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 am Was the De Glanville choice just trying to replace Carling MKII? Was he captain at Bath? They were unbeatable those day.

I think Dallaglio had the personality perhaps more outspoken than Johnson. He was a very good captain.

Jack Rowell, the new England coach, was the previous Bath coach, which may be one reason.

Ironically I can remember people (my Dad) in the later Carling era grumbling that we couldn't pick England's best centre combination, De Glanville & Guscott, because Carling was captain. The moment De Glanville was captain we were grumbling that we couldn't pick Carling & Guscott any more. As I recall Carling was in a rich vein of form.

I didn't really rate Carling as a player but he seemed to have a charisma about him that English players obviously liked. He was like Francois Pienaar, just had something about them that they didn't have to prove themselves to be respected.

I thinm Rowell saw it in De Glanville too.