NPR

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:39 am Scots in the lead.

https://x.com/rugby365com/status/1861686703372558806

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

Quite.

Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.

The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.

Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though

OomStruisbaai wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:05 pm The Scots can poach as many Saffers as they like. We have so much depth , so its no worries.

Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.

laurent wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:09 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:05 pm The Scots can poach as many Saffers as they like. We have so much depth , so its no worries.

Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.

Well the french stole one too ... a coquerel is a sized down cassowary so that works

Biffer wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:54 am

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

Quite.

Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.

The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.

Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though

I have Oom blocked now, his pish is tiresome.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

Quite.

Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.

The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.

Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though

SaintK wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am

assfly wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:23 am This is embarrassing Oom.

It's 2024 and it's a professional sport where players choose what to do.

Quite.

Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.

The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.

Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though

Ashman also played for England at age group. My mate coached him at England U20 and said he'd always made it clear he was going to opt for Scotland if he made it to full international

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.

For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.

Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.

Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:38 pm

SaintK wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am



Quite.

Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.

The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.

Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though

Ashman also played for England at age group. My mate coached him at England U20 and said he'd always made it clear he was going to opt for Scotland if he made it to full international

He played for Scotland at U16 and I think U18 level before the U20s with Scotland.

Was he in a wider squad for the England U20s? He never played for them as far as I'm aware.

The dual-qualified young players in England are often advised to keep their options open because it can affect them regarding club contracts

robmatic wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.

For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.

Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.

Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.

Hamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:14 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.

For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.

Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.

Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.

Hamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.

I remember being very confused the first time I heard him speak. An individual with that name should not sound so English.

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:28 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:14 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pm

Hamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.

I remember being very confused the first time I heard him speak. An individual with that name should not sound so English.

Years back, I ducked into a touristy shop on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh to buy some memory trinket... the Sikh gentleman serving me had one of the most delightful Scottish accents I've ever heard.

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:38 pm


*edited to add - we went to a Sikh wedding in Slough, it was my wife's best mate from school who was marrying into a Sikh family. The guys were all resplendent in their designer suits and had real wide-boy Thames estuary accents - same thing, I guess

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:05 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

Calling Tom Jordan a peoject player is pretty wide of the mark for me too. Schoeman - yes. Like Nel before him, specifically brought over to solve the Scotland team's prop problem. Jordan - no. Comes to Scotland on a gap year adventure, plays for Ayr instead of one of the pro teams, gets noticed, works his way up and comes onto the radar because of that. There was no project, no plan for this to happen. It's just a lovely story.

Biffer wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:17 pm Also worth pointing out that at the time some south african players thought they weren't going to get a fair crack of the whip due to the quota system. Whether they were right or wrong in that belief is another thing.

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

I assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:09 pm Duhan isn’t a project either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

I assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?

Niegs wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:45 pm Next up, WR requires x amount of true nationals like the Canadian Football League (which requires 21 of 45 roster spots to be held by true Canucks).

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:17 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:38 pm


*edited to add - we went to a Sikh wedding in Slough, it was my wife's best mate from school who was marrying into a Sikh family. The guys were all resplendent in their designer suits and had real wide-boy Thames estuary accents - same thing, I guess

That would be bordering on surreal

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:51 pm

Niegs wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:45 pm Next up, WR requires x amount of true nationals like the Canadian Football League (which requires 21 of 45 roster spots to be held by true Canucks).

Except there is no Scottish nationality - yet - so they can’t apply such a rule to us. If a passport could be obtained with one parent born in Scotland, we’d have no issues with such a quota (see above). If one grandparent would do (as is the case for Irish nationality) then it would cover all but three current players.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:08 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:09 pm Duhan isn’t a project either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh

You can thank the qouta system for getting him. It's on Biffer.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:08 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:09 pm Duhan isn’t a project either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh

You can thank the qouta system for getting him. It's on Biffer.

What's on Biffer?

Habana said a couple of years ago that he didn't consider Duhan as "one that got away" so, meh.

Big Duhan is a very emotional guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. There is an interview from a while ago where he talks about what Scotland rescuing his career means to him. There is still a lot of this idiotic stuff going around about "poaches" but it takes a lot of guts for someone to cross borders to places unknown and try to make a living for themselves and their family.

Obviously I don't know what was said, but in the last Lions tour Faf de Klerk had a go at sledging Duhan, I'm guessing it was to do with not playing for the country of his birth, and the very next play Duhan made contact with Pieter Steph du Toit and du Toit got carried off injured, you could see that van der Merwe was obviously very pissed off with whatever de Klerk said.

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:47 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.

I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:

1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.

2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.

3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).

I assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?

I just read the Wikipedia article. Fascinating! I see that Percy Montgomery was the most famous poach resulting from this.

I apologise for the use of the term ‘project’ players. This was actually why I used the quotes - because I know neither Duhan nor Tom Jordan was brought to Scotland with the intention of qualifying them for Scotland. WP Nel, yes. Schoeman, yes. Not sure there have been any others. Strauss? Visser? Kebble? There are plenty of examples of players who were brought to Scotland with the intention of making them Scotland players, but the vast majority qualified via the diaspora and were SQ from birth.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:09 pm Duhan isn’t a project either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:36 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:09 pm Duhan isn’t a project either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh

We're not calling them "projects". We're calling them "poaches".