NPR

While it was the British that implemented partition, it was the Muslim League that demanded it. It was against the wishes of Gandhi, a man executed by a Hindu extremist, and against the counsel of the British, albeit after centuries of "divide and conquer" colonial control.
It was one of the most violent events in history. Neighbours murdered each other the moment they felt legally absolved to do so, communities that had lived side by side for centuries butchered each other for no reason other than religious animosity.
As many as 2 million were killed, 100,000 women were raped and abducted, and as many as 18 million were displaced from religiously motivated massacres by Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs alike.
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis don't share an ethnicity or language, or a border, but they share their religion, and that was enough to initially be seen as the same nationality. Their religion was their nationality.
Ten weeks after independence, India and Pakistan went to war for the first time. It's happened three more times since then.
When the people of Kashmir were offered membership of either Pakistan or India, the Muslim majority wanted to join Pakistan. The Hindu Raj chose to join India. The Muslims of Kashmir have demanded this decision be reversed ever since.
A passionate allegiance to a political entity they've never been a part of, based on no other value than religion, strong enough to wage war.
Make no mistake, this is a holy war. A country that has Islam enshrined into its constitution and a country with a Hindu nationalist Prime Minister are threatening to annihilate one another, and the crowds are getting loud.

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:01 am Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:19 amChina has military ties with Pakistan and ongoing border hostilities with India.

Gumboot wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:29 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:19 amChina has military ties with Pakistan and ongoing border hostilities with India.

Yep, way back in the late 80s I wanted to visit Kashmir on my way to the Karakoram Highway, and then on to Llasa. But the Chinese embassy in Delhi wouldn't give me a visa coz the soldiers at the border crossing were pretty twitchy at the time. So I had to turn round and head back to Nepal...

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:19 am

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:01 am Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 6:20 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:19 am

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:01 am Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Kawazaki wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 8:02 am Two million deaths, mass rape and 18 million people displaced or continue with more than a century of multicultural peace under British rule?

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 7:23 am

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 6:20 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:19 am

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 7:23 am

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 6:20 am

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Brazil wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 8:06 am There weren't particularly bad relations between Hindus and Muslims prior to British rule, it's a narrative that's spun by the BJP to justify their crackdowns. Historically, a Gujarati Muslim had far more in common with his Hindu neighbour than he did with a Bengali Muslim. The big division came late on in the Raj when the British starting demanding to know the religious identity of Indians and using it as a divide and rule tactic. Similarly, it was relatively late on in the campaign for independence that the idea of partition came to be seriously considered. Even Jinnah didn't favour it initially.

The Empire podcast episodes on this are very good indeed.

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:42 am

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 7:23 am
Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 11:26 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:42 am

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 11:26 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:42 am

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 3:14 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 11:26 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:42 am

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

You can’t run a Quit India campaign and then complain when said power quits India

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 7:23 am

Kiwias wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 6:20 am

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 3:23 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 3:14 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 11:26 am

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

You can’t run a Quit India campaign and then complain when said power quits India

You can if you are Irish.
Just imagine if London PLC kicks Northern Ireland into touch and lets the fake ‘one island can only be one country’ thing happen. That part of the world will still be antagonistic to one another long after we’ve washed our hands with it all, just as it was long before we got invited to do their heavy lifting & even 400 odd years later when Henry 8ths cock created a whole new religion for all those warring factions to get behind different sky fairy banners just so they can easier distinguish themselves whilst cutting each other up in a bog. The more sporting ones even chose a nice bright orange to help that, rather than the greens and their unsporting collage of snot grass & leaves.

Always playing the victim that lot, we lucky we contained that influence to just Liverpool.

PornDog wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 3:39 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Yeeb wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 7:23 am
Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Probably best not to mention Michael O'Dwyer at this juncture. Ah shit!

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 5:05 pm

PornDog wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 3:39 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 10:37 am

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Probably best not to mention Michael O'Dwyer at this juncture. Ah shit!

There’s the famous quip of India having been governed in a Cork accent

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:12 am Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:18 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:12 am Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:01 am

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:18 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:12 am Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:03 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:01 am

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:18 am

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:21 am

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:03 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:01 am



So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

I'm not going anywhere.

Liberia and Ethiopia were never colonised, perhaps they're the ideal model for all African countries?

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 9:16 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:21 am

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 8:03 am

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

I'm not going anywhere.

Liberia and Ethiopia were never colonised, perhaps they're the ideal model for all African countries?

One with a vicious civil war not long ago and one in the middle of one with a low level genocide going on?

Having been to Liberia fairly recently, it’s not a model for anything

Uncle fester wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 10:38 am Your bojo tribute act is a bit forced tago.

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 4:58 am Should we be a little bit worried?

A blogger I follow via FB, Carrick Ryan (ex Australian security service agent) puts it thus,

While it was the British that implemented partition, it was the Muslim League that demanded it. It was against the wishes of Gandhi, a man executed by a Hindu extremist, and against the counsel of the British, albeit after centuries of "divide and conquer" colonial control.
It was one of the most violent events in history. Neighbours murdered each other the moment they felt legally absolved to do so, communities that had lived side by side for centuries butchered each other for no reason other than religious animosity.
As many as 2 million were killed, 100,000 women were raped and abducted, and as many as 18 million were displaced from religiously motivated massacres by Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs alike.
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis don't share an ethnicity or language, or a border, but they share their religion, and that was enough to initially be seen as the same nationality. Their religion was their nationality.
Ten weeks after independence, India and Pakistan went to war for the first time. It's happened three more times since then.
When the people of Kashmir were offered membership of either Pakistan or India, the Muslim majority wanted to join Pakistan. The Hindu Raj chose to join India. The Muslims of Kashmir have demanded this decision be reversed ever since.
A passionate allegiance to a political entity they've never been a part of, based on no other value than religion, strong enough to wage war.
Make no mistake, this is a holy war. A country that has Islam enshrined into its constitution and a country with a Hindu nationalist Prime Minister are threatening to annihilate one another, and the crowds are getting loud.

In a post on social media platform Truth Social, the US President says: "After a long night of talks mediated by the United States, I am pleased to announce that India and Pakistan have agreed to a FULL AND IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE.

Slick wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:18 am

Kawazaki wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 7:12 am Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

SaintK wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 12:13 pm It's ok folks. Trump has just announced on social media that he has brokered a peace deal

In a post on social media platform Truth Social, the US President says: "After a long night of talks mediated by the United States, I am pleased to announce that India and Pakistan have agreed to a FULL AND IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE.

UK played a key role in ceasefire talks, says Pakistan's foreign minister
published at 15:26

Let's bring you some more comments from Pakistan's Foreign Minister, who earlier confirmed the ceasefire after Donald Trump's announcement on Truth Social.

Ishaq Dar tells GeoTV that both India and Pakistan engaged in "direct communication" and "as a result a joint agreement was reached".

Dar adds that other countries were also involved in finding a resolution - "most notably the United Kingdom".

"The UK Foreign Secretary, David Lammy, played a key role in this process."