NPR

Lemoentjie wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:50 am I've seen this movie before...

Good luck to them, it's their decision. They'd be stupid to allow SA to join, unless it was just a trading bloc. Free movement to the UK or Australia for all South Africans?

Ellafan wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:09 am Something smells off here. No India, no Kenya etc. No Saffers.

Niegs wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:35 pm Freedom of movement? Wouldn't we all end up in NZ?

Canada might be the next most popular destination as Brits seem to love it here. Down under neo-hippies love the west coast.

mat the expat wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:56 am

Niegs wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:35 pm Freedom of movement? Wouldn't we all end up in NZ?

Canada might be the next most popular destination as Brits seem to love it here. Down under neo-hippies love the west coast.

I wouldn't mind freedom to go to Canada

mat the expat wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:27 am That would be epic!

My BiL's uncle disappeared after WWII - he was supposed to get on a boat to Canada from Italy.

50 Years later and they found out he got on the wrong ship and ended up in Adelaide! The brother and sister finally met up after all that time.

I was at a funeral last week for a Polish family member - he was born in Germany in a refugee camp. They were supposed to go to Argentina. That was higher on the list than Oz back then. Ended up in Adelaide as well

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:12 am Would it be easier to make more use of the Commonwealth than to start a new entity?

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:27 am We should definitely be doing more with the Commonwealth but I guess the complexities of that organisation make quick and easy wins more difficult. I understand that there are a lot of conversations going around making the Commonwealth work better, but I can't see much happening in the next few years.

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:12 am Would it be easier to make more use of the Commonwealth than to start a new entity?

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:32 am

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:27 am We should definitely be doing more with the Commonwealth but I guess the complexities of that organisation make quick and easy wins more difficult. I understand that there are a lot of conversations going around making the Commonwealth work better, but I can't see much happening in the next few years.

The Commonwealth does work, but it's just not very good at marketing itself and showcasing the work it does.

Not taking advantage of existing ties with upcoming powers such as India seems ludicrous to me.

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:36 am It works in places, agreed. But given the potential it is really just messing around at the edges and having a nice meeting every few years.

Interestingly, there are a load of African countries currently going through the process of joining, it is obviously still attractive and maybe needs to take this onboard and be more assertive. The reality ot's usually 3rd rate political appointees that get given the top jobs, it needs some real credible leadership.

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 am

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:36 am It works in places, agreed. But given the potential it is really just messing around at the edges and having a nice meeting every few years.

Interestingly, there are a load of African countries currently going through the process of joining, it is obviously still attractive and maybe needs to take this onboard and be more assertive. The reality ot's usually 3rd rate political appointees that get given the top jobs, it needs some real credible leadership.

There is a lot more co-operation that goes beyond CHOGM. But like I said, the Commonwealth's weakness is its publicity and many of these small wins go unnoticed beyond the inner-circle.

The soft-power that the Commonwealth yields is still yet to be fully realised. It is an extremely attractive organisation to be part of, especially as a developing country. It gives state leaders an equal chair at the table that other organisations like the UN don't, which leads to a very different type of politics.

Letting Rwanda join was a good idea in my opinion, but apart from South Sudan I don't see any other African states joining anytime soon.

Agreed about the leadership. I believe great progress was made under Kamalesh Sharma but I'm yet to be convinced by Patrica Scotland. The next SG is going to have to come from outside the UK for credibilty reasons. Similarly, they'll need to think carefully about the next Head of the Commonwealth when Liz pops it.

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 am

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:36 am It works in places, agreed. But given the potential it is really just messing around at the edges and having a nice meeting every few years.

Interestingly, there are a load of African countries currently going through the process of joining, it is obviously still attractive and maybe needs to take this onboard and be more assertive. The reality ot's usually 3rd rate political appointees that get given the top jobs, it needs some real credible leadership.

There is a lot more co-operation that goes beyond CHOGM. But like I said, the Commonwealth's weakness is its publicity and many of these small wins go unnoticed beyond the inner-circle.

The soft-power that the Commonwealth yields is still yet to be fully realised. It is an extremely attractive organisation to be part of, especially as a developing country. It gives state leaders an equal chair at the table that other organisations like the UN don't, which leads to a very different type of politics.

Letting Rwanda join was a good idea in my opinion, but apart from South Sudan I don't see any other African states joining anytime soon.

Agreed about the leadership. I believe great progress was made under Kamalesh Sharma but I'm yet to be convinced by Patrica Scotland. The next SG is going to have to come from outside the UK for credibilty reasons. Similarly, they'll need to think carefully about the next Head of the Commonwealth when Liz pops it.

Enzedder wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:06 am We tried something like that but then that brazen European hussy raised her skirts an inch and the Poms were gone - leaving us and Aussie (and possible the Canuks but not sure about that) to scramble for new markets.

Don't trust them guys

sturginho wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:17 am

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 amSimilarly, they'll need to think carefully about the next Head of the Commonwealth when Liz pops it.

Umm, isn't it supposed to be hereditary?

sturginho wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:17 am

assfly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 am

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:36 am It works in places, agreed. But given the potential it is really just messing around at the edges and having a nice meeting every few years.

Interestingly, there are a load of African countries currently going through the process of joining, it is obviously still attractive and maybe needs to take this onboard and be more assertive. The reality ot's usually 3rd rate political appointees that get given the top jobs, it needs some real credible leadership.

There is a lot more co-operation that goes beyond CHOGM. But like I said, the Commonwealth's weakness is its publicity and many of these small wins go unnoticed beyond the inner-circle.

The soft-power that the Commonwealth yields is still yet to be fully realised. It is an extremely attractive organisation to be part of, especially as a developing country. It gives state leaders an equal chair at the table that other organisations like the UN don't, which leads to a very different type of politics.

Letting Rwanda join was a good idea in my opinion, but apart from South Sudan I don't see any other African states joining anytime soon.

Agreed about the leadership. I believe great progress was made under Kamalesh Sharma but I'm yet to be convinced by Patrica Scotland. The next SG is going to have to come from outside the UK for credibilty reasons. Similarly, they'll need to think carefully about the next Head of the Commonwealth when Liz pops it.

Umm, isn't it supposed to be hereditary?

sturginho wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:17 am Umm, isn't it supposed to be hereditary?

Slick wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:23 am
Great post, agree with pretty much all of that.

I know that Senegal and Cote d'Ivoire have really stepped up their efforts to join in the last year - some of this may be to prompt a reaction from France, but it seems genuine from what I hear - and a few others are at an early stage.

Also agree about Scotland, she is too matey with the usual hangers on in the UK to make a difference IMO, and yes, needs to be from outside the UK next.

EDIT - and Angola fairly advanced.

mat the expat wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:27 am That would be epic!

My BiL's uncle disappeared after WWII - he was supposed to get on a boat to Canada from Italy.

50 Years later and they found out he got on the wrong ship and ended up in Adelaide! The brother and sister finally met up after all that time.

I was at a funeral last week for a Polish family member - he was born in Germany in a refugee camp. They were supposed to go to Argentina. That was higher on the list than Oz back then. Ended up in Adelaide as well

Hugo wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:58 pm

mat the expat wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:27 am That would be epic!

My BiL's uncle disappeared after WWII - he was supposed to get on a boat to Canada from Italy.

50 Years later and they found out he got on the wrong ship and ended up in Adelaide! The brother and sister finally met up after all that time.

I was at a funeral last week for a Polish family member - he was born in Germany in a refugee camp. They were supposed to go to Argentina. That was higher on the list than Oz back then. Ended up in Adelaide as well

Interesting, apparently all roads lead to Adelaide.

My Grandad's brother also ended up in Adelaide, served in the British army in WW2 then after the war joined the Australian army and I think spent the rest of his working life in it.

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Green light echo wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:01 pm

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

100%. Piss the Brits off. What have they ever done for us.

They should realky be ashamed of themselves, but of course they aren't....

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm
As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

Ellafan wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm
As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

No foresight, really.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Not that I imagine you're massively interested or would agree, but it is possible to see comparing the two as you have done as very much apples and oranges.
There aren't all that many genuine isolationists, and if you do accept the need for international cooperation it does not necessarily follow that:
1) It needs to be focussed on the EU 27
2) That it must take the form of the EU

For example, a CANZUK agreement doesn't necessarily need to have EU style freedom of movement to be successful.
Similarly, it seems fairly self-explanatory that an agreement with a smaller number of nations with very similar systems of government and cultures that we shape from the beginning may well prove more popular than one we failed to join and shape from the start.

As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

shereblue wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:18 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Not that I imagine you're massively interested or would agree, but it is possible to see comparing the two as you have done as very much apples and oranges.
There aren't all that many genuine isolationists, and if you do accept the need for international cooperation it does not necessarily follow that:
1) It needs to be focussed on the EU 27
2) That it must take the form of the EU

For example, a CANZUK agreement doesn't necessarily need to have EU style freedom of movement to be successful.
Similarly, it seems fairly self-explanatory that an agreement with a smaller number of nations with very similar systems of government and cultures that we shape from the beginning may well prove more popular than one we failed to join and shape from the start.

As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

I am greatly in favour of international co-operation and closer CANZUK co-operation is an excellent idea. I believe there is a matchless cultural proximity. Co-operation was already there within our EU membership, with Five Eyes and so on.

This thread started however with the idea of an alternative body and even rival to the EU. That just seems like a tiresome and ultimately unrealisable distraction given the strident opposition to shared sovereignty demonstrated by the newly purged Conservative Government. And I'm not sure to what extent our CANZ cousins want this anyway.

Would the idea be that some sort of "white" drawbridge be raised (hard lines, India, South Africa) and would we stand shoulder to shoulder with Canada against US bullying as we saw with Trump's ripping up of NAFTA? Would the UK welcome migrating aboriginals from Oz and refugees from a more welcoming Canada? And what is this combined military might talked up, what's it for, over and beyond NATO? I'm not sure why the UK would want to shape CANZ, let alone be shaped by them.

If we are to be part of an entity then my view has always that in political and trade terms, despite its limitations, the EU covers our backyard and shared history. The Thatcher-driven expansion from the 6 member states we joined has helped change the map of Europe since the Cold War, Franco, the Colonels and such like and is a stronger bulwark against US, Russian and Chinese weight throwing.

So yes to increased co-operation with CANZ (and the Commonwealth) and yes to a more positive approach to co-operation with the EU.

shereblue wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:18 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Not that I imagine you're massively interested or would agree, but it is possible to see comparing the two as you have done as very much apples and oranges.
There aren't all that many genuine isolationists, and if you do accept the need for international cooperation it does not necessarily follow that:
1) It needs to be focussed on the EU 27
2) That it must take the form of the EU

For example, a CANZUK agreement doesn't necessarily need to have EU style freedom of movement to be successful.
Similarly, it seems fairly self-explanatory that an agreement with a smaller number of nations with very similar systems of government and cultures that we shape from the beginning may well prove more popular than one we failed to join and shape from the start.

As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

I am greatly in favour of international co-operation and closer CANZUK co-operation is an excellent idea. I believe there is a matchless cultural proximity. Co-operation was already there within our EU membership, with Five Eyes and so on.

This thread started however with the idea of an alternative body and even rival to the EU. That just seems like a tiresome and ultimately unrealisable distraction given the strident opposition to shared sovereignty demonstrated by the newly purged Conservative Government. And I'm not sure to what extent our CANZ cousins want this anyway.

Would the idea be that some sort of "white" drawbridge be raised (hard lines, India, South Africa) and would we stand shoulder to shoulder with Canada against US bullying as we saw with Trump's ripping up of NAFTA? Would the UK welcome migrating aboriginals from Oz and refugees from a more welcoming Canada? And what is this combined military might talked up, what's it for, over and beyond NATO? I'm not sure why the UK would want to shape CANZ, let alone be shaped by them.

If we are to be part of an entity then my view has always that in political and trade terms, despite its limitations, the EU covers our backyard and shared history. The Thatcher-driven expansion from the 6 member states we joined has helped change the map of Europe since the Cold War, Franco, the Colonels and such like and is a stronger bulwark against US, Russian and Chinese weight throwing.

So yes to increased co-operation with CANZ (and the Commonwealth) and yes to a more positive approach to co-operation with the EU.

Caley_Red wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:24 am

shereblue wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:18 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm

Not that I imagine you're massively interested or would agree, but it is possible to see comparing the two as you have done as very much apples and oranges.
There aren't all that many genuine isolationists, and if you do accept the need for international cooperation it does not necessarily follow that:
1) It needs to be focussed on the EU 27
2) That it must take the form of the EU

For example, a CANZUK agreement doesn't necessarily need to have EU style freedom of movement to be successful.
Similarly, it seems fairly self-explanatory that an agreement with a smaller number of nations with very similar systems of government and cultures that we shape from the beginning may well prove more popular than one we failed to join and shape from the start.

As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

I am greatly in favour of international co-operation and closer CANZUK co-operation is an excellent idea. I believe there is a matchless cultural proximity. Co-operation was already there within our EU membership, with Five Eyes and so on.

This thread started however with the idea of an alternative body and even rival to the EU. That just seems like a tiresome and ultimately unrealisable distraction given the strident opposition to shared sovereignty demonstrated by the newly purged Conservative Government. And I'm not sure to what extent our CANZ cousins want this anyway.

Would the idea be that some sort of "white" drawbridge be raised (hard lines, India, South Africa) and would we stand shoulder to shoulder with Canada against US bullying as we saw with Trump's ripping up of NAFTA? Would the UK welcome migrating aboriginals from Oz and refugees from a more welcoming Canada? And what is this combined military might talked up, what's it for, over and beyond NATO? I'm not sure why the UK would want to shape CANZ, let alone be shaped by them.

If we are to be part of an entity then my view has always that in political and trade terms, despite its limitations, the EU covers our backyard and shared history. The Thatcher-driven expansion from the 6 member states we joined has helped change the map of Europe since the Cold War, Franco, the Colonels and such like and is a stronger bulwark against US, Russian and Chinese weight throwing.

So yes to increased co-operation with CANZ (and the Commonwealth) and yes to a more positive approach to co-operation with the EU.

Is it possible to extract yourself from the Brexit prism through which you see all else? The thread did not start with the idea being a rival to the EU but rather deepening existing ties to countries with whom there's a deep historical relationship as well as a shared language and similar institutions.

shereblue wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:18 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:15 pm

shereblue wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:21 pm Canzuk seems to be veering off into the Commonwealth. Fact is that it is very hard to create these entities. The youtube clip talks of "working, living and travelling seamlessly between Canzuk nations". It licks it lips at the combined military might of the nations. Has the UK not just left a Union complaining about infringement of sovereignty, judicial oversight, free movement, a Euro Army? There is a good cultural link but the UK is just casting about desperately at the moment for white friends. Canz would be better. You lot don't want a flood of impoverished, unemployed Brits swamping your cities.

Not that I imagine you're massively interested or would agree, but it is possible to see comparing the two as you have done as very much apples and oranges.
There aren't all that many genuine isolationists, and if you do accept the need for international cooperation it does not necessarily follow that:
1) It needs to be focussed on the EU 27
2) That it must take the form of the EU

For example, a CANZUK agreement doesn't necessarily need to have EU style freedom of movement to be successful.
Similarly, it seems fairly self-explanatory that an agreement with a smaller number of nations with very similar systems of government and cultures that we shape from the beginning may well prove more popular than one we failed to join and shape from the start.

As for the search for white friends - why do you think we joined the EU in the first place? As Edgerton put it in The Rise & Fall of the British Nation - one of the great modern histories of 20th Century Britain, our political class realised it had to choose between a black Empire/Commonwealth and a white Europe and considered it a no-brainer.

I am greatly in favour of international co-operation and closer CANZUK co-operation is an excellent idea. I believe there is a matchless cultural proximity. Co-operation was already there within our EU membership, with Five Eyes and so on.

This thread started however with the idea of an alternative body and even rival to the EU. That just seems like a tiresome and ultimately unrealisable distraction given the strident opposition to shared sovereignty demonstrated by the newly purged Conservative Government. And I'm not sure to what extent our CANZ cousins want this anyway.

Would the idea be that some sort of "white" drawbridge be raised (hard lines, India, South Africa) and would we stand shoulder to shoulder with Canada against US bullying as we saw with Trump's ripping up of NAFTA? Would the UK welcome migrating aboriginals from Oz and refugees from a more welcoming Canada? And what is this combined military might talked up, what's it for, over and beyond NATO? I'm not sure why the UK would want to shape CANZ, let alone be shaped by them.

If we are to be part of an entity then my view has always that in political and trade terms, despite its limitations, the EU covers our backyard and shared history. The Thatcher-driven expansion from the 6 member states we joined has helped change the map of Europe since the Cold War, Franco, the Colonels and such like and is a stronger bulwark against US, Russian and Chinese weight throwing.

So yes to increased co-operation with CANZ (and the Commonwealth) and yes to a more positive approach to co-operation with the EU.