NPR

During their tenure?

I'd throw Peter the Great in there. Westernised and modernized Russia, expanded the Empire, built a Navy and gained access to the Black sea. Was intellectually curious and very interested in science, engineering, shipbuilding and such. Essentially he transformed Russia into a European power.

I'd argue Issac Newton indirectly. The way he massively articulated the laws of motion in turn stimulated the Industrial revolution which is the biggest improvement in life for humans in any way in history.

The other obvious choice is Washington.

I'm not very familiar with his exploits as President but as Commander in Chief during the Revolutionary war he was the lynchpin to the success of the Patriots.

He did not provide the intellectual impetus for going to war but the important thing to realise is that he legitimised the rebellion in terms of the respect that he garnered from his own men and also in the way that he dealt with the British top brass.

After the British captured New York in 1776 he refused to even countenance terms for reconciliation. It is said his bearing was on par with any noble or aristocrat from Europe in that he could talk to any British general as a peer, an equal. He would not tolerate disrespect.

Without Washington the continental army is just a rabble of blacksmiths and farmers and the rebellion doomed to failure.

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:53 pm I'd argue Issac Newton indirectly. The way he massively articulated the laws of motion in turn stimulated the Industrial revolution which is the biggest improvement in life for humans in any way in history.

I'd follow that with Isambard Kingdom Brunel

Saint wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:33 pm

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:53 pm I'd argue Issac Newton indirectly. The way he massively articulated the laws of motion in turn stimulated the Industrial revolution which is the biggest improvement in life for humans in any way in history.

I'd follow that with Isambard Kingdom Brunel

He was a genius and certainly the most prolific engineer in an era of many greats who helped shape the Industrial Revolution, but no Newton then it is doubtful the IR would have done what it did at that time. I believe Newton is the most influential human being in history.

King James VI (King of Scots) King of Great Britain and Ireland in the early 17th century. Set in motion the colonisations which grew to become the British Empire.

Tim Berners-Lee


Changed the world. Should be the richest man since Croesus.

Ovals wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:02 pm King James VI (King of Scots) King of Great Britain and Ireland in the early 17th century. Set in motion the colonisations which grew to become the British Empire.

if you're going to talk about Monarchs, then William III is arguably the one that most improved the country

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 pm

Saint wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:33 pm

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:53 pm I'd argue Issac Newton indirectly. The way he massively articulated the laws of motion in turn stimulated the Industrial revolution which is the biggest improvement in life for humans in any way in history.

I'd follow that with Isambard Kingdom Brunel

He was a genius and certainly the most prolific engineer in an era of many greats who helped shape the Industrial Revolution, but no Newton then it is doubtful the IR would have done what it did at that time. I believe Newton is the most influential human being in history.

Might be splitting hairs, but I'm not sure that's actually the question in the OP

Oliver Cromwell

Igor the Improver

The Whig interpretation of history is still current I see.

Got to be Henry VIII

Bit of a prick, but set us away from the Pope and his malarkey.

I reckon a decent case could be made that the dilution of, and competition against, the Vatican’s power, laid the ground for the modern world.

Canada's might be William Lyon Mackenzie King, longest serving PM. Extended our autonomy through Balfour Declaration and Statue of Westminster, managed to avoid the early onset of the Depression (though lost the election as he didn't quite realize how big it was), then brought us out, welcomed US corporate expansion, and saw us through WW2. In a day where we see a lot of politicians who are not the most likeable nor, seemingly, great statesmen ... he was definitely not likeable, but was certainly a statesman who got shit done.

If he sounds like a boring wee man, everyone thought so ... until his diaries - that, my prof said, his secretary was meant to destroy - came to light after his death.

Staring with "King's biographers..." in the third paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_L ... enzie_King ... consulted with mediums, spoke to dead mentors and mother via them, and his stuffed dead dog. Confirmed bachelor, maybe a super-repressed gay or maybe just asexual? Maternal grandfather led the Upper Canada Rebellion and, iirc, was a bit of a nutter. My high school science teacher is related and didn't want to be associated with either of them. :)

More dirt: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/819 ... -strangest

Ryoma Sakamoto was a core figure in Japan's move from the 250-year long Tokugawa shogunate back to an emperor-run state leading to the modernisation of Japan.

https://www.nippon.com/en/views/b07203/

Ghandi.

Jacinda Ardern

Taiwan would probably be facing an even bleaker future than Hong Kong right now were it not for Mr Democracy, Lee Teng-Hui.

F. W. de Klerk, dismantled the apartheid system in South Africa.

Carter's Choice wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:42 am F. W. de Klerk, dismantled the apartheid system in South Africa.

Out of the goodness of his heart? Or because the likes of Mandela and others who made real sacrifices that ended up forcing his hand?

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:10 pm Tim Berners-Lee


Changed the world. Should be the richest man since Croesus.

But... that led to Facebook and similar voices for the stupid.

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:27 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:42 am F. W. de Klerk, dismantled the apartheid system in South Africa.

Out of the goodness of his heart? Or because the likes of Mandela and others who made real sacrifices that ended up forcing his hand?

de Klerk experienced a radical shift in his personal beliefs and perception that led him to move to free Mandela. It was a serious undertaking as there was a real fear of the consequences of such a move. It was a brave move by a man who had been a champion of the opposite view but came to be convinced of the need for a better way due to the damage the status quo was causing his nation. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts.

It’s a brave man who would question his merits after nominating a first term political leader who has yet to make any serious change to her country outside of the realm of strong leadership under crisis conditions. Brave... or foolish.

In the modern age, I reckon that Lee Kwan Yew would take some beating: moved his country from 3rd to 1st world in a generation: a powerhouse of engineering and tech; one of the best secondary education systems in the world; the most effective public housing policies in the world; a burgeoning financial sector; and, the best public administration by many measures (demonstrated once again during this crisis).

Caley_Red wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:48 am In the modern age, I reckon that Lee Kwan Yew would take some beating: moved his country from 3rd to 1st world in a generation: a powerhouse of engineering and tech; one of the best secondary education systems in the world; the most effective public housing policies in the world; a burgeoning financial sector; and, the best public administration by many measures (demonstrated once again during this crisis).

Yup, good call. I wanted to nominate him earlier and couldn’t remember his name

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:27 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:42 am F. W. de Klerk, dismantled the apartheid system in South Africa.

Out of the goodness of his heart? Or because the likes of Mandela and others who made real sacrifices that ended up forcing his hand?

Why not read-up on him? He made several steps that could have backfired and pushed the issue to success. By all accounts he was genuine when he did it and I've not seen any expert claim otherwise.

It sounds like de Klerk made som bold choices and was genuine and sincere in his actions.

I’ll definitely read up in him.

It still seems odd to praise him above people who really suffered to bring about change.

The question has nothing to do with suffering... that’s your personal inference.

Shanky’s mate wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:41 am
de Klerk experienced a radical shift in his personal beliefs and perception that led him to move to free Mandela. It was a serious undertaking as there was a real fear of the consequences of such a move. It was a brave move by a man who had been a champion of the opposite view but came to be convinced of the need for a better way due to the damage the status quo was causing his nation. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts.

It’s a brave man who would question his merits after nominating a first term political leader who has yet to make any serious change to her country outside of the realm of strong leadership under crisis conditions. Brave... or foolish.

Well put. Unfortunately his involvement in Apartheid will most likely cloud people's judgement of him, but I agree with your post.

But in the case of South Africa, I'd probably nominate Mandela ahead of him.

assfly wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:44 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:41 am
de Klerk experienced a radical shift in his personal beliefs and perception that led him to move to free Mandela. It was a serious undertaking as there was a real fear of the consequences of such a move. It was a brave move by a man who had been a champion of the opposite view but came to be convinced of the need for a better way due to the damage the status quo was causing his nation. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts.

It’s a brave man who would question his merits after nominating a first term political leader who has yet to make any serious change to her country outside of the realm of strong leadership under crisis conditions. Brave... or foolish.

Well put. Unfortunately his involvement in Apartheid will most likely cloud people's judgement of him, but I agree with your post.

But in the case of South Africa, I'd probably nominate Mandela ahead of him.

Mandela was old and tired, but I’m disappointed he didn’t stay on another 3-4 years. Would have made a big difference in the ANC today. Less corruption and bullshit hopefully.

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:39 am It sounds like de Klerk made som bold choices and was genuine and sincere in his actions.

I’ll definitely read up in him.

It still seems odd to praise him above people who really suffered to bring about change.

Totally understand where you are coming from. I guess the thing is, to dismantle the apartheid system without an armed and bloody revolution required someone to dismantle it from the inside. de Klerk effectively ceded his own power and condemned his political party, the National Party, from being seemingly permanently in office to permanently in opposition. He didn't just dismantle apartheid, he brought democracy to Soouth Africa. And that was quite a remarkable thing to do. That doesn't take away anything that Mandela or other ANC freedom fighters did.

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:50 am Mandela was old and tired, but I’m disappointed he didn’t stay on another 3-4 years. Would have made a big difference in the ANC today. Less corruption and bullshit hopefully.

Yes, he must be turning in his grave to see the ANC today.

assfly wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:44 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:41 am
de Klerk experienced a radical shift in his personal beliefs and perception that led him to move to free Mandela. It was a serious undertaking as there was a real fear of the consequences of such a move. It was a brave move by a man who had been a champion of the opposite view but came to be convinced of the need for a better way due to the damage the status quo was causing his nation. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts.

It’s a brave man who would question his merits after nominating a first term political leader who has yet to make any serious change to her country outside of the realm of strong leadership under crisis conditions. Brave... or foolish.

Well put. Unfortunately his involvement in Apartheid will most likely cloud people's judgement of him, but I agree with your post.

But in the case of South Africa, I'd probably nominate Mandela ahead of him.

Yes, de Klerk's hands were far from clean, but together he and Mandela did something they probably couldn't have achieved individually - the country's peaceful transition out of apartheid.

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:45 amJacinda Ardern

Sorry. To clear things up: I’m a fan, but this was a joke.

Biggest one for us was probably Roger Douglas who dragged us away from the nanny state. And he wasn't even a PM.

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:09 am Biggest one for us was probably Roger Douglas who dragged us away from the nanny state. And he wasn't even a PM.

I was a kid when this happened, but I remember my pretty conservative relatives hating this man and screaming blue murder.

Is it now generally accepted that he did what needed to be done?

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:16 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:09 am Biggest one for us was probably Roger Douglas who dragged us away from the nanny state. And he wasn't even a PM.

I was a kid when this happened, but I remember my pretty conservative relatives hating this man and screaming blue murder.

Is it now generally accepted that he did what needed to be done?

Fucked a whole country for three generations?

Shanky’s mate wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:31 am

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:16 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:09 am Biggest one for us was probably Roger Douglas who dragged us away from the nanny state. And he wasn't even a PM.

I was a kid when this happened, but I remember my pretty conservative relatives hating this man and screaming blue murder.

Is it now generally accepted that he did what needed to be done?

Fucked a whole country for three generations?

That has always been my impression. I was interested if Enz really thought Rogernomics was a much needed improvement.

Shanky’s mate wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:31 am

FujiKiwi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:16 am

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:09 am Biggest one for us was probably Roger Douglas who dragged us away from the nanny state. And he wasn't even a PM.

I was a kid when this happened, but I remember my pretty conservative relatives hating this man and screaming blue murder.

Is it now generally accepted that he did what needed to be done?

Fucked a whole country for three generations?

Nope, that would be Piggy.

Padraig Pearse - in his own lifetime achieved almost nothing on a national scale; however his actions in 1916 & his execution led directly to Irish independence 5 years later.

Isn’t it true that Muldoon screwed over the country in his own way and then Douglas et al came and screwed us all over again in a different fashion? I was a kid then and have never read up on what was going on the way I should have.