NPR

OK, let's kick off some actual test-your-knowledge rugby discussion on this board.

The rules; minimum number of families necessary to fill-out your country's all-time XV. Brothers or fathers-and-sons only, please, no second-cousins of someone's great uncle.

For NZ:

15 Beauden Barrett
14 Jordie Barrett
13 Nathan Mauger
12 Aaron Mauger
11 Julian Savea
10 Stephen Bachop
9 Graeme Bachop
8 Scott Barrett
7 Ardie Savea
6 Alan Whetton
5 Gary Whetton
4 Frank Oliver
3 Owen Franks
2 Anton Oliver
1 Ben Franks

Total: 7 families.

With apologies to Maurice and Cyril Brownlie, Colin and Stan Meads, Luke and Sam Whitelock, Don and Ian Clarke, Robbie and Bruce Deans, Murray and Warwick Taylor, Fred and Kawhena Woodman, Ian and Eddie Dunn, Robin and Zinzan Brooke, Hosea and Rico Gear, Jimmy and Laurie Haig, etc.

I can't imagine that any other nations family XV could come close to that - Imagine having the strength in depth to be able to have Zinzan & Robin Brooke on the bench!

Tonga would come close but I can't remember rightly the positions of players.
Wales too.

CrazyIslander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:34 am Tonga would come close but I can't remember rightly the positions of players.
Wales too.

Yeah, I can remember individual pairs of brothers but not enough from any one country to fashion a team - Bergamasco, Kefu, Ella, Quinell, Underwood & the Hastings.

Haast Eagle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 am OK, let's kick off some actual test-your-knowledge rugby discussion on this board.

The rules; minimum number of families necessary to fill-out your country's all-time XV. Brothers or fathers-and-sons only, please, no second-cousins of someone's great uncle.

For NZ:

15 Beauden Barrett
14 Jordie Barrett
13 Nathan Mauger
12 Aaron Mauger
11 Julian Savea
10 Stephen Bachop
9 Graeme Bachop
8 Scott Barrett
7 Ardie Savea
6 Alan Whetton
5 Gary Whetton
4 Frank Oliver
3 Owen Franks
2 Anton Oliver
1 Ben Franks

Total: 7 families.

With apologies to Maurice and Cyril Brownlie, Colin and Stan Meads, Luke and Sam Whitelock, Don and Ian Clarke, Robbie and Bruce Deans, Murray and Warwick Taylor, Fred and Kawhena Woodman, Ian and Eddie Dunn, Robin and Zinzan Brooke, Hosea and Rico Gear, Jimmy and Laurie Haig, etc.

I got 7 as well. It's harder to put this together than it sounds. Hooker was a real struggle and in the end I had to use your Oliver family connection. I would have liked to have kept them all pro-era. I'm quite happy with this year, I tried to get the Laulala's in to this team but struggled to fill LH prop. If Daniel Leinart-Brown had been test capped it would have helped.

15. Beaudan Barrett
14. Hosea Gear
13. Rico Gear
12. Jordie Barrett
11. Julian Savea
10. Stephen Bachop
9. Graeme Bachop

8. Luke Whitelock
7. Ardie Savea
6. Scott Barrett
5. Sam Whitelock
4. Frank Oliver
3. Owen Franks
2. Anton Oliver
1. Ben Franks

George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

Jb1981 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

Yeah I had to remove him and shift Scott Barrett into the backrow to accomodate old man Oliver because I couldn't find anyone to play hooker. Hooker was the real challenge. If there was a family that had played halfback and hooker for the AB's I would have been living my best life!

Scotland

15 Gavin Hastings
14 Thom Evans
13 Scott Hastings
12 Adam Hastings
11 Max Evans
10 Greig Laidlaw
9 Roy Laidlaw
8 Matt Fagerson
7
6
5 Jonny Gray
4 Richie Gray
3 Zander Fagerson
2 Kenny Milne
1 Ian Milne

15 Rob Kearney
14 Richie Wallace
13 Brian O'Driscoll
12 Frank O'Driscoll (2 non-cap matches v Argentina in the 1970s, IIRC)
11 Dave Kearney
10 Barry O'Driscoll (capped at fullback)
9 Guy Easterby
8 Anthony Foley
7 David Wallace
6 Simon Easterby
5 Brendan Foley
4 John O'Driscoll (capped as a flanker)
3 Paul Wallace
2 Keith Wood
1 Gordon Wood

A good chunk of that team would have played together.
Rory and Simon Best miss out to Keith and Gordon Wood
Des (prop) and Luke (wing) Fitzgerald should probably be in there
A couple of qualifiers on the O'Driscolls; I had to squeeze brothers John and Barry in out of position. They are cousins of Frank, who only played 2 non-cap games v Argentina; in the modern era those games would have been considered tests.
Some close ones; Keith Earls' da never got a cap. Denis Hickie's dad, Tony, was also uncapped, but his uncle, Denis, got 6 caps on the flank.

Jb1981 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

15 Beauden Barrett
14 Jordie Barrett
13 Rico Gear
12 Adam Whitelock
11 Hosea Gear
10 Stephen Bachop
9 Graeme Bachop
8 Scott Barrett
7 Kane Barrett (ex-Auckland Blues)
6 George Whitelock
5 Sam Whitelock
4 Frank Oliver
3 Owen Franks
2 Anton Oliver
1 Ben Franks

6.

there's a few more Bachop's floating around now, 6 could be bettered?

Caley_Red wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:37 am Scotland

15 Gavin Hastings
14 Thom Evans
13 Scott Hastings
12 Adam Hastings
11 Max Evans
10 Greig Laidlaw
9 Roy Laidlaw
8 Matt Fagerson
7
6
5 Jonny Gray
4 Richie Gray
3 Zander Fagerson
2 Kenny Milne
1 Ian Milne

Jim and Finlay Calder at 6 and 7

And 1 guest wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:22 am

Caley_Red wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:37 am Scotland

15 Gavin Hastings
14 Thom Evans
13 Scott Hastings
12 Adam Hastings
11 Max Evans
10 Greig Laidlaw
9 Roy Laidlaw
8 Matt Fagerson
7
6
5 Jonny Gray
4 Richie Gray
3 Zander Fagerson
2 Kenny Milne
1 Ian Milne

Jim and Finlay Calder at 6 and 7

15. Gavin Hastings
14. Thom Evans
13. Scott Hastings
12. John Leslie
11. Max Evans
10. Greig Laidlaw
9. Roy Laidlaw
8. Martin Leslie
7. Finlay Calder
6. Jim Calder
5. Jonny Gray
4. Richie Gray
3. Iain Milne
2. Kenny Milne
1. David Milne

I’d prefer Adam Hastings at 10, but that means nobody for 9.

Carter's Choice wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:25 am

Jb1981 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

Yeah I had to remove him and shift Scott Barrett into the backrow to accomodate old man Oliver because I couldn't find anyone to play hooker. Hooker was the real challenge. If there was a family that had played halfback and hooker for the AB's I would have been living my best life!

What about Fitzy? His Dad was an All Black wasn't he?

Yr Alban wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:48 am

And 1 guest wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:22 am

Caley_Red wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:37 am Scotland

15 Gavin Hastings
14 Thom Evans
13 Scott Hastings
12 Adam Hastings
11 Max Evans
10 Greig Laidlaw
9 Roy Laidlaw
8 Matt Fagerson
7
6
5 Jonny Gray
4 Richie Gray
3 Zander Fagerson
2 Kenny Milne
1 Ian Milne

Jim and Finlay Calder at 6 and 7

15. Gavin Hastings
14. Thom Evans
13. Scott Hastings
12. John Leslie
11. Max Evans
10. Greig Laidlaw
9. Roy Laidlaw
8. Martin Leslie
7. Finlay Calder
6. Jim Calder
5. Jonny Gray
4. Richie Gray
3. Iain Milne
2. Kenny Milne
1. David Milne

I’d prefer Adam Hastings at 10, but that means nobody for 9.

If we're allowing uncle/nephew (e.g. Laidlaw) then Chris Paterson (10, 11, 14 or 15) and Duncan Paterson (9) is an option.

duke wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:08 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:25 am

Jb1981 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

Yeah I had to remove him and shift Scott Barrett into the backrow to accomodate old man Oliver because I couldn't find anyone to play hooker. Hooker was the real challenge. If there was a family that had played halfback and hooker for the AB's I would have been living my best life!

What about Fitzy? His Dad was an All Black wasn't he?

So was Murray Mexted’s father. Also a No. 8., 1 x test.

Liam Barry’s father, utility forward 0 tests, and grandfather, loose forward 1 x test, were also All Blacks.

Carter's Choice wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:25 am

Jb1981 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am George Whitelock played a test but I can’t find a way to bring him with the other permutations.

Yeah I had to remove him and shift Scott Barrett into the backrow to accomodate old man Oliver because I couldn't find anyone to play hooker. Hooker was the real challenge. If there was a family that had played halfback and hooker for the AB's I would have been living my best life!

Archie McCormick at hooker and Fergie McCormick at 15.

15. Delon Armitage
14. Tony Underwood
13. Will Greenwood
12. Andy Farrell
11. Rory Underwood
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3.
4.
5.
6. Dick Greenwood
7. Steffon Armitage
8. Billy Vunipola

That's as far as I can get. Twindaloo miss out so Greenwood can take a spot in the centres. You could also swap Ben Youngs with his scrum half father Nick.

notfatcat wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:18 am 15. Delon Armitage
14. Tony Underwood
13. Will Greenwood
12. Andy Farrell
11. Rory Underwood
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3.
4.
5.
6. Dick Greenwood
7. Steffon Armitage
8. Billy Vunipola

That's as far as I can get. Twindaloo miss out so Greenwood can take a spot in the centres. You could also swap Ben Youngs with his scrum half father Nick.

John and Rob Fidler as the 2nd row?

duke wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:27 am

notfatcat wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:18 am 15. Delon Armitage
14. Tony Underwood
13. Will Greenwood
12. Andy Farrell
11. Rory Underwood
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3.
4. John Fidler
5. Rob Fidler
6. Dick Greenwood
7. Steffon Armitage
8. Billy Vunipola

That's as far as I can get. Twindaloo miss out so Greenwood can take a spot in the centres. You could also swap Ben Youngs with his scrum half father Nick.

John and Rob Fidler as the 2nd row?

Great call!

No-one's tried this for Wales yet? We have the 3 Quinnells, Thomas and Dai Young, the Moriartys, Llewellyn brothers, to fit in the pack for a start. Not sure about hooker.

For England, there are a whole bunch of brothers and/or father/son(s) combs you could put in from the 19th and early 20th century. It's not always possible to know what position they played, though.

1 Piet Spiere Du Toit
2 Bismark Du Plessis
3 Jannie Du Plessis
4 Dan Du Preez
5 Felix Du Plessis
6 Jean Luc Du Preez
7 PSDT
8 Morne Du Plessis

9 Ruan Pienaar
10 Naas Botha
11 Darius Botha
12 Michael Du Plessis
13 Willie Du Plessis
14 Carel Du Plessis
15 Gysie Pienaar

are all those Du Plessis bods very closely related?

On a separate topic, could you put together a Wales team comprising entirely of Jones and/or Williams, whether or not related?

notfatcat wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:18 am 15. Delon Armitage
14. Tony Underwood
13. Alex Lozowski
12. Rob Lozowski
11. Rory Underwood
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3.
4. Josh Beaumont
5. Bill Beaumont
6. Andy Farrell
7. Steffon Armitage
8. Billy Vunipola

Get the Beaumonts in then could move Andy Farrell to the backrow where he always should have been and get the Lozowskis in as a pair in midfield.

Josh Beaumont only played a non-cap game

Closest I can think of for France

1
2 Michel Yachvili
3
4 Claude Spanghero
5 Walter Spanghero
6 Marc Lievremont
7 Matthieu Lievremont
8 Thomas Lievremont
9 Dimitri Yachvili
10 Romain Ntamack
11 Nicolas Laharrague
12 Alain Penaud
13 Damien Penaud
14 Emile Ntamack
15 Julien Laharrague

Claire Lievremont: no-one said female caps didn't count but can't make her fit anyway.

Stumped on props.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pm Closest I can think of for France

1
2 Michel Yachvili
3
4 Claude Spanghero
5 Walter Spanghero
6 Marc Lievremont
7 Matthieu Lievremont
8 Thomas Lievremont
9 Dimitri Yachvili
10 Romain Ntamack
11 Nicolas Laharrague
12 Alain Penaud
13 Damien Penaud
14 Emile Ntamack
15 Julien Laharrague

Claire Lievremont: no-one said female caps didn't count but can't make her fit anyway.

Stumped on props.

Could you find some way of including the Dourthe family and their In-laws (Ibanez and Magne)?

duke wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:57 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pm Closest I can think of for France

1
2 Michel Yachvili
3
4 Claude Spanghero
5 Walter Spanghero
6 Marc Lievremont
7 Matthieu Lievremont
8 Thomas Lievremont
9 Dimitri Yachvili
10 Romain Ntamack
11 Nicolas Laharrague
12 Alain Penaud
13 Damien Penaud
14 Emile Ntamack
15 Julien Laharrague

Claire Lievremont: no-one said female caps didn't count but can't make her fit anyway.

Stumped on props.

Could you find some way of including the Dourthe family and their In-laws (Ibanez and Magne)?

Doesn't help with the prop issues. Will have another think later.

France, Romain TAOFIFENUA and his brother Sébastien played 2 games last year ( prop#1)

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:04 pm

duke wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:57 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pm Closest I can think of for France

1
2 Michel Yachvili
3
4 Claude Spanghero
5 Walter Spanghero
6 Marc Lievremont
7 Matthieu Lievremont
8 Thomas Lievremont
9 Dimitri Yachvili
10 Romain Ntamack
11 Nicolas Laharrague
12 Alain Penaud
13 Damien Penaud
14 Emile Ntamack
15 Julien Laharrague

Claire Lievremont: no-one said female caps didn't count but can't make her fit anyway.

Stumped on props.

Could you find some way of including the Dourthe family and their In-laws (Ibanez and Magne)?

Doesn't help with the prop issues. Will have another think later.

Per Wiki, Aurelien Rougerie's father had one test for France against Japan as a prop

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pm Closest I can think of for France

1
2 Michel Yachvili
3
4 Claude Spanghero
5 Walter Spanghero
6 Marc Lievremont
7 Matthieu Lievremont
8 Thomas Lievremont
9 Dimitri Yachvili
10 Romain Ntamack
11 Nicolas Laharrague
12 Alain Penaud
13 Damien Penaud
14 Emile Ntamack
15 Julien Laharrague

Claire Lievremont: no-one said female caps didn't count but can't make her fit anyway.

Stumped on props.

I was thinking if you were going for fewest families and not necessarily quality / capped, it'd be the Lievremonts vs the Vyvyans.

A little help with Samoa? Could be winners of the "fewest families" criteria if you can sort out locks. I'm sure you could shoehorn Tusi into SH and Paul Williams to FH. One of the Lays could probably hook and, as Samoans love to tackle, any of them would be happy to wear the 7 jersey.

15. Ken Pisi / Paul Williams
14. Alesana Tuilagi
13. George Pisi / Gavin Williams
12. Freddie Tuilagi
11. Andy Tuilagi
10. Tusi Pisi
9.

8. Henry Tuilagi
7.
6. Vavae Tuilagi
5.
4.
3. Census Johnston / Jordan Lay
2.
1. James Johnston / James Lay


They also have lots of brothers who played for different teams ... Bachops, Alaalatoas, Tagicakibaus, Senios, So'oialos, Eddie Ioane father of the two ABs, Manu Tuilagi, Schwlagers are uncle/nephew, lots with different names who are cousins...

Just bear in mind when a Samoan talks about a cousin they are often talking about a very distant relative, not a first cousin.

Not sure if this is doable for italy, despite the fact that we had four Francescato brothers play for Italy. Unfortunately all four played in the centres

Niegs wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:05 pm
I was thinking if you were going for fewest families and not necessarily quality / capped, it'd be the Lievremonts vs the Vyvyans.

Had totally forgotten the Vyvyans. Did any of them at all get an intl cap?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:07 am

Niegs wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:05 pm
I was thinking if you were going for fewest families and not necessarily quality / capped, it'd be the Lievremonts vs the Vyvyans.

Had totally forgotten the Vyvyans. Did any of them at all get an intl cap?

Wiki tells me that Hugh was the youngest and got one cap (I remember seeing him play Canada on a Saxons tour but it doesn't list those appearances). It also says older brother played for Sale, but not so much about the other five so probably just good club lads?

I imagine there are many families with people who've played at various levels, but remember them as having a big family who all played (Rugby World talking about how they won a sevens tourney with just brothers).

Niegs wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:39 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:07 am

Niegs wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:05 pm
I was thinking if you were going for fewest families and not necessarily quality / capped, it'd be the Lievremonts vs the Vyvyans.

Had totally forgotten the Vyvyans. Did any of them at all get an intl cap?

Wiki tells me that Hugh was the youngest and got one cap (I remember seeing him play Canada on a Saxons tour but it doesn't list those appearances). It also says older brother played for Sale, but not so much about the other five so probably just good club lads?

I imagine there are many families with people who've played at various levels, but remember them as having a big family who all played (Rugby World talking about how they won a sevens tourney with just brothers).

Mainly Oirish Catholic ones!!!

Niegs wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:39 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:07 am

Niegs wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:05 pm
I was thinking if you were going for fewest families and not necessarily quality / capped, it'd be the Lievremonts vs the Vyvyans.

Had totally forgotten the Vyvyans. Did any of them at all get an intl cap?

Wiki tells me that Hugh was the youngest and got one cap (I remember seeing him play Canada on a Saxons tour but it doesn't list those appearances). It also says older brother played for Sale, but not so much about the other five so probably just good club lads?

I imagine there are many families with people who've played at various levels, but remember them as having a big family who all played (Rugby World talking about how they won a sevens tourney with just brothers).

I think there were 7 Vyvyan brothers. Not sure if there were any sisters. All went to an independent school; the father must have been minted.