Another mass shooting in the US

[notfatcat]

And it’s always a good idea to try to resist arrest.

It's the badass motherfucker problem.

[Kawazaki]

Wrong thread...

[Calculon]

With help from the guy's own livestream. No need to be a twat about it.

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

TBH not sure how I would react if two excitable yank cops pointed their guns at me and shouted at me that I should be afraid. If I was a black male it would probably be even more frightening. You're wrong about fatcat, he is a right-wing nut job every day.

[Fangle]

[media] https://www.police1.com/officer-shootin ... arFQaW1ZF/[/media]

[notfatcat]

With help from the guy's own livestream. No need to be a twat about it.

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

TBH not sure how I would react if two excitable yank cops pointed their guns at me and shouted at me that I should be afraid. If I was a black male it would probably be even more frightening. You're wrong about fatcat, he is a right-wing nut job every day.

Mate, you're the one who posted a summary which was incomplete, missing some salient facts - so either disingenuous or ignorant. You can smear me all you like but it doesn't make you any wiser, just someone who doesn't have a coherent argument.

[Rinkals]

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

TBH not sure how I would react if two excitable yank cops pointed their guns at me and shouted at me that I should be afraid. If I was a black male it would probably be even more frightening. You're wrong about fatcat, he is a right-wing nut job every day.

Mate, you're the one who posted a summary which was incomplete, missing some salient facts - so either disingenuous or ignorant. You can smear me all you like but it doesn't make you any wiser, just someone who doesn't have a coherent argument.

Please provide the missing salient facts, if you would.

The OP from Calculon was not an "incomplete summary" but was a link to a video carried in the Independent.

Admittedly the video only started with the guns drawn and the shouting in full swing, so there was probably some preamble which led to this which is not covered.

However, even if there was, the video showed the black serviceman who was clearly worried that any move he made would be construed as an excuse to kill him who was trying to comply with contradictory and aggressive commands. And getting assaulted and sprayed with pepper spray for his trouble.

[Calculon]

And it’s always a good idea to try to resist arrest.

If he was genuinely trying to resist arrest, the police should have charged him for it, but in fact they released him without any charge. Do you think the police were at fault in this instance? I get it that you feel you have to defend your adopted country, but bad cops like these ones do immense damage to the reputation of yank police and America's image. An ex work colleague of mine, who is one of the nicest people I know, is a cop in texas, and I'd like to think she would be absolute furious with how the one cop in this video conducted himself

[notfatcat]

TBH not sure how I would react if two excitable yank cops pointed their guns at me and shouted at me that I should be afraid. If I was a black male it would probably be even more frightening. You're wrong about fatcat, he is a right-wing nut job every day.

Mate, you're the one who posted a summary which was incomplete, missing some salient facts - so either disingenuous or ignorant. You can smear me all you like but it doesn't make you any wiser, just someone who doesn't have a coherent argument.

Please provide the missing salient facts, if you would.

The OP from Calculon was not an "incomplete summary" but was a link to a video carried in the Independent.

Admittedly the video only started with the guns drawn and the shouting in full swing, so there was probably some preamble which led to this which is not covered.

However, even if there was, the video showed the black serviceman who was clearly worried that any move he made would be construed as an excuse to kill him who was trying to comply with contradictory and aggressive commands. And getting assaulted and sprayed with pepper spray for his trouble.

Hang on a sec, you were going to provide the stats that led you to conclude that "when he withdraws his hands from their sight to comply, there is a strong likelihood that they would assume he's going for a gun and fill him full of lead."

Please reveal all.

[Rinkals]

Mate, you're the one who posted a summary which was incomplete, missing some salient facts - so either disingenuous or ignorant. You can smear me all you like but it doesn't make you any wiser, just someone who doesn't have a coherent argument.

Please provide the missing salient facts, if you would.

The OP from Calculon was not an "incomplete summary" but was a link to a video carried in the Independent.

Admittedly the video only started with the guns drawn and the shouting in full swing, so there was probably some preamble which led to this which is not covered.

However, even if there was, the video showed the black serviceman who was clearly worried that any move he made would be construed as an excuse to kill him who was trying to comply with contradictory and aggressive commands. And getting assaulted and sprayed with pepper spray for his trouble.

Hang on a sec, you were going to provide the stats that led you to conclude that "when he withdraws his hands from their sight to comply, there is a strong likelihood that they would assume he's going for a gun and fill him full of lead."

Please reveal all.

WTAF?

Are you on the sauce?

I presume you are referring to this:

Your trust in the capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint, while touching, doesn't seem to be borne out by the statistics.

I made no commitment to unearthing any statistics for you: indeed the point I was making was a general reference to your trust in the "capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint". Perhaps, instead of mentioning the term "statistics" I should have said "anecdotally", thus removing the option for you to lead the conversation in a tangent.

If you believe that statistics bear out this faith, then by all means provide them if you want. Or not.

I don't really have any interest in changing your mind. Which I very much doubt is possible, in any case.

[notfatcat]

Okay Rinkals, let's have a recap.

You said this -

but you know that when he withdraws his hands from their sight to comply, there is a strong likelihood that they would assume he's going for a gun and fill him full of lead.

I questioned your use of the term "strong likelihood" and asked you how often police filled someone full of lead at a traffic stop compared with how many traffic stops they make.

For the avoidance of doubt my contention is that filling someone full of lead at a traffic stop is a very, very rare occurrence. I'm basing this on the known statistics of police shooting people dead and a guestimate of traffic stops numbering in the millions per annum.

So, I'll ask again - on what are you basing your assertion that there is a strong likelihood that they would fill him full of lead?

You then replied with this -

I'm going by the number of people (black folks in particular) who are deemed to be going for a weapon once they move a hand out of sight.

Your trust in the capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint, while touching, doesn't seem to be borne out by the statistics.

So to use your own words you were going by the number of people, black in particular, who are deemed to be going for a weapon when they move a hand out of sight - what is this number? I presume you have a statistic or if not then a rough idea of how many times this happens - which is it?

You also attributed a point to me that I hadn't even made. I haven't commented on trusting the police to exercise restraint and neither have I implied it or even hinted at it. You mentioned statistics again, so it's fair to ask you - which statistics?

So, to your last reply to me -

I made no commitment to unearthing any statistics for you: indeed the point I was making was a general reference to your trust in the "capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint". Perhaps, instead of mentioning the term "statistics" I should have said "anecdotally", thus removing the option for you to lead the conversation in a tangent.

If you believe that statistics bear out this faith, then by all means provide them if you want. Or not.

I don't really have any interest in changing your mind. Which I very much doubt is possible, in any case.

You were the one who mentioned statistics and I asked you which ones, although you then concede that you weren't talking about statistics you were talking anecdotally, which I guess enables you to make up anything and not have to back it up.

Again you've made an assertion about trusting the cops that you falsely attribute to me - possibly to run interference from the other stuff you're posting.

Finally, I'm not trying to lead the conversation off at a tangent - I asked you directly, and I'm asking you directly again, to qualify your assertion that there was a strong likelihood that the guy would have been shot full of lead had he moved a hand out of sight? Basically I'm asking you to justify your use of the words 'strong likelihood'. I mean you can't just be making stuff up; you must be basing your opinion on something.

[Tichtheid]

There is a macabre graph here showing people shot by US police by race

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

The numbers shown will be tempered with the fact that the demographics of the USA is slightly over 75% white, a little under 13.5% black or African American, 18.5% Hispanic or Latin American, there is another discrepancy there as apparently Hispanic and Latin Americans are counted twice - for ethnicity and race. I only saw that headline and didn't look into it further.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /PST045219

[Fangle]

And it’s always a good idea to try to resist arrest.

If he was genuinely trying to resist arrest, the police should have charged him for it, but in fact they released him without any charge. Do you think the police were at fault in this instance? I get it that you feel you have to defend your adopted country, but bad cops like these ones do immense damage to the reputation of yank police and America's image. An ex work colleague of mine, who is one of the nicest people I know, is a cop in texas, and I'd like to think she would be absolute furious with how the one cop in this video conducted himself

I was talking generally, not any specific incident.

[Uncle fester]

With help from the guy's own livestream. No need to be a twat about it.

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

[Rinkals]

Okay Rinkals, let's have a recap.

You said this -

but you know that when he withdraws his hands from their sight to comply, there is a strong likelihood that they would assume he's going for a gun and fill him full of lead.

I questioned your use of the term "strong likelihood" and asked you how often police filled someone full of lead at a traffic stop compared with how many traffic stops they make.

For the avoidance of doubt my contention is that filling someone full of lead at a traffic stop is a very, very rare occurrence. I'm basing this on the known statistics of police shooting people dead and a guestimate of traffic stops numbering in the millions per annum.

So, I'll ask again - on what are you basing your assertion that there is a strong likelihood that they would fill him full of lead?

You then replied with this -

I'm going by the number of people (black folks in particular) who are deemed to be going for a weapon once they move a hand out of sight.

Your trust in the capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint, while touching, doesn't seem to be borne out by the statistics.

So to use your own words you were going by the number of people, black in particular, who are deemed to be going for a weapon when they move a hand out of sight - what is this number? I presume you have a statistic or if not then a rough idea of how many times this happens - which is it?

You also attributed a point to me that I hadn't even made. I haven't commented on trusting the police to exercise restraint and neither have I implied it or even hinted at it. You mentioned statistics again, so it's fair to ask you - which statistics?

So, to your last reply to me -

I made no commitment to unearthing any statistics for you: indeed the point I was making was a general reference to your trust in the "capacity of American policemen to exercise restraint". Perhaps, instead of mentioning the term "statistics" I should have said "anecdotally", thus removing the option for you to lead the conversation in a tangent.

If you believe that statistics bear out this faith, then by all means provide them if you want. Or not.

I don't really have any interest in changing your mind. Which I very much doubt is possible, in any case.

You were the one who mentioned statistics and I asked you which ones, although you then concede that you weren't talking about statistics you were talking anecdotally, which I guess enables you to make up anything and not have to back it up.

Again you've made an assertion about trusting the cops that you falsely attribute to me - possibly to run interference from the other stuff you're posting.

Finally, I'm not trying to lead the conversation off at a tangent - I asked you directly, and I'm asking you directly again, to qualify your assertion that there was a strong likelihood that the guy would have been shot full of lead had he moved a hand out of sight? Basically I'm asking you to justify your use of the words 'strong likelihood'. I mean you can't just be making stuff up; you must be basing your opinion on something.

FFS.

Yes, I did mention the word "statistics" which you appear to have latched onto.

I know of no statistics that would prove that American police exercise restraint when attempting to arrest black citizens, although you appear to believe that they do. I am not particularly interested in looking for them and don't really care if they exist or not.

This pointless exercise in semantics is a completely irrelevant side track which achieves very little.

Can I spell it out for you?

There is a sufficiently widely known trend (whether backed up by statistics or not) whereby blacks have been shot and killed in the process of being arrested for this particular serviceman to have been very wary of moving his hands in a way that might have been construed as threatening.

I hope this is sufficiently clear for you to finally understand what I am saying.

[notfatcat]

I understand perfectly what you are saying. For the third time you are attributing something to me which I did not say or imply. Plus you hold an opinion which you clearly state you hold regardless of whether any evidence backs it up. Fair play to you for admitting to that.

[Sandstorm]

With help from the guy's own livestream. No need to be a twat about it.

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

[tabascoboy]

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Gawd help you if you are a tourist and aren't prepared for the kind of total submissiveness required.

[Rinkals]

I understand perfectly what you are saying. For the third time you are attributing something to me which I did not say or imply. Plus you hold an opinion which you clearly state you hold regardless of whether any evidence backs it up. Fair play to you for admitting to that.

I give up.

My point was not about statistics.

I don't really care whether the statistics show that American policemen are the most well trained, most considerate and most even-handed constabulary on the planet.

My point was about the understandable nervousness of the black serviceman who was trying to comply without getting shot.

[Rinkals]

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Fatcat assures us that the version posted "was incomplete, missing some salient facts", but he is not prepared to tell us what these missing, salient facts are, despite being requested to.

So who knows?

Only Fatcat, one assumes.

[Sandstorm]

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Gawd help you if you are a tourist and aren't prepared for the kind of total submissiveness required.

Except I am prepared. Because I’m not stupid and don’t give a shit about “respek”

Some people are less smart and have ego issues. These people are at risk at their next traffic stop in America.

[Calculon]

Ego issues, possibly.
Less smart, not so sure. Provided you don't get shot, it seems these people always end up with a big payout thanks to the idiot thug cops behaviour

[notfatcat]

I understand perfectly what you are saying. For the third time you are attributing something to me which I did not say or imply. Plus you hold an opinion which you clearly state you hold regardless of whether any evidence backs it up. Fair play to you for admitting to that.

I give up.

My point was not about statistics.

I don't really care whether the statistics show that American policemen are the most well trained, most considerate and most even-handed constabulary on the planet.

My point was about the understandable nervousness of the black serviceman who was trying to comply without getting shot.

For the fourth time you are arguing against something I never said, and I'm happy to keep pointing out that you are doing so. Keep at it though, it adds absolutely zero to the conversation and does you no favours.

Your point about the "understandable nervousness of the black serviceman" is, as you yourself said, based on your feelings regardless of whether there's any evidence to back it up. You're the one who explicitly implied that statistics (let's call it evidence) plays no part in your argument.

[Uncle fester]

Fatcat is a rightwingnut most days, but he’s right here.

The black driver was very awkward, even after he stopped and was ordered out of the car. He made the situation of dealing with bad cops infinitely worse.

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

[Uncle fester]

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Gawd help you if you are a tourist and aren't prepared for the kind of total submissiveness required.

Except I am prepared. Because I’m not stupid and don’t give a shit about “respek”

Some people are less smart and have ego issues. These people are at risk at their next traffic stop in America.

I nearly got tasered by airport security in Sacramento because I couldn't understand the instructions I was being given. Thankfully an off-duty cop (irony central) was in the queue and told him to cop the fück on.

Totally different crew but same mentality. Even Israeli border police aren't as bad as septics.

[Sandstorm]

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

Are you saying if he pulled over when first asked to in a poorly lit location, he would almost certainly have been murdered by the cops and his body hidden in the swamp?

[Kiwias]

I understand perfectly what you are saying. For the third time you are attributing something to me which I did not say or imply. Plus you hold an opinion which you clearly state you hold regardless of whether any evidence backs it up. Fair play to you for admitting to that.

I give up.

My point was not about statistics.

I don't really care whether the statistics show that American policemen are the most well trained, most considerate and most even-handed constabulary on the planet.

My point was about the understandable nervousness of the black serviceman who was trying to comply without getting shot.

For the fourth time you are arguing against something I never said, and I'm happy to keep pointing out that you are doing so. Keep at it though, it adds absolutely zero to the conversation and does you no favours.

Your point about the "understandable nervousness of the black serviceman" is, as you yourself said, based on your feelings regardless of whether there's any evidence to back it up. You're the one who explicitly implied that statistics (let's call it evidence) plays no part in your argument.

Well, there is this comment by the cop in response to the serviceman saying he was afraid to get out of the car:

You should be afraid!!

This would seem to suggest that his nervousness was justified to a significant degree.

[mat the expat]

Who's been pulled over by a cop in the US?

I have - I was in the wrong, not used to driving on the other side of the road.

It was still terrifying - lucky for me, the cop was cool and just gave us a verbal

[Rinkals]

I understand perfectly what you are saying. For the third time you are attributing something to me which I did not say or imply. Plus you hold an opinion which you clearly state you hold regardless of whether any evidence backs it up. Fair play to you for admitting to that.

I give up.

My point was not about statistics.

I don't really care whether the statistics show that American policemen are the most well trained, most considerate and most even-handed constabulary on the planet.

My point was about the understandable nervousness of the black serviceman who was trying to comply without getting shot.

For the fourth time you are arguing against something I never said, and I'm happy to keep pointing out that you are doing so. Keep at it though, it adds absolutely zero to the conversation and does you no favours.

Your point about the "understandable nervousness of the black serviceman" is, as you yourself said, based on your feelings regardless of whether there's any evidence to back it up. You're the one who explicitly implied that statistics (let's call it evidence) plays no part in your argument.

Can't be bothered.

You win.

[Uncle fester]

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

Are you saying if he pulled over when first asked to in a poorly lit location, he would almost certainly have been murdered by the cops and his body hidden in the swamp?

You quoted my post and it's pretty clear what I'm saying. Black people being pulled over by cops need to be more mindful of their safety than white people.

[Rinkals]

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

Are you saying if he pulled over when first asked to in a poorly lit location, he would almost certainly have been murdered by the cops and his body hidden in the swamp?

You quoted my post and it's pretty clear what I'm saying. Black people being pulled over by cops need to be more mindful of their safety than white people.

Is that the "salient fact" that Fatcat was referring to?

Not passing a fake twenty?

I was under the impression that there had been a felony and this chap was guilty, banged to rights.

[notfatcat]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

[Kiwias]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

[Fangle]

Whatever country I’m in, flashing cop car lights behind me would surely raise my adrenaline levels.

[Calculon]

Even the psycho cop who pepper sprayed the driver admitted that he didn't have a problem with the guy pulling over when he did.

[Rinkals]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

The only salient facts that Fatcat is prepared to acknowledge are those that support his own opinions. Anything that runs counter to those is not worth considering.

[notfatcat]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

I'm not doubting the guy's good intentions but he was wrong to do that. Plus it took him a while to obey the instructions to place his hands outside the window.

[notfatcat]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

The only salient facts that Fatcat is prepared to acknowledge are those that support his own opinions. Anything that runs counter to those is not worth considering.

Which facts am I ignoring?

[Calculon]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

I'm not doubting the guy's good intentions but he was wrong to do that. Plus it took him a while to obey the instructions to place his hands outside the window.

"a while"

[notfatcat]

Yes, he initially refused. Your point?

[Sandstorm]

“I’m a Lieutenant in the Army!”

No one cares bro, put your dumb hands outside the window.