Saffer Politics thread

[Sards]

Needs its own space...

WITH Kolisi heading the call to address BLM he has opened up a real can of worms which shows that if it were not for " colonial money " he would necer have held the trophy up here that is the RWC....Now Nipper reckons we are Priviledged whites.....wtf.

Letss talk about priviledge.

My children cannot get a good paying job because of the color of their skin.....FACT.
What option do they have left......Self employment. They aren't burning down the 2 schools in the neighbouring area where 2 were torched this week because of protesters demanding free land because of this....No. They are getting on with making themselves successfull.

[handyman]

This won't end well...

[Big Nipper]

Needs its own space...

WITH Kolisi heading the call to address BLM he has opened up a real can of worms which shows that if it were not for " colonial money " he would necer have held the trophy up here that is the RWC....Now Nipper reckons we are Priviledged whites.....wtf.

Letss talk about priviledge.

My children cannot get a good paying job because of the color of their skin.....FACT.
What option do they have left......Self employment. They aren't burning down the 2 schools in the neighbouring area where 2 were torched this week because of protesters demanding free land because of this....No. They are getting on with making themselves successfull.

Bro you are absolutely deluded - my younger brother is 25, walked into the auditing firm of his choice. so did his entire Stellenbosch class, who are 90% white

[DraadkarD]

Needs its own space...

WITH Kolisi heading the call to address BLM he has opened up a real can of worms which shows that if it were not for " colonial money " he would necer have held the trophy up here that is the RWC....Now Nipper reckons we are Priviledged whites.....wtf.

Letss talk about priviledge.

My children cannot get a good paying job because of the color of their skin.....FACT.
What option do they have left......Self employment. They aren't burning down the 2 schools in the neighbouring area where 2 were torched this week because of protesters demanding free land because of this....No. They are getting on with making themselves successfull.

Shit Sards. Sorry to hear. Why could't your kids get a job because of the color of their skin?

[Big Nipper]

Needs its own space...

WITH Kolisi heading the call to address BLM he has opened up a real can of worms which shows that if it were not for " colonial money " he would necer have held the trophy up here that is the RWC....Now Nipper reckons we are Priviledged whites.....wtf.

Letss talk about priviledge.

My children cannot get a good paying job because of the color of their skin.....FACT.
What option do they have left......Self employment. They aren't burning down the 2 schools in the neighbouring area where 2 were torched this week because of protesters demanding free land because of this....No. They are getting on with making themselves successfull.

Shit Sards. Sorry to hear. Why could't your kids get a job because of the color of their skin?

I thought there were laws against child labour

[Sandstorm]

[Sards]

Dudes. The older one will be delivering meals on his bicycle. The youngest will be peeling potatoes

[Lemoentjie]

We are privileged. Taking individual cases of black people who are more privileged than the average white person does not negate the fact that white people are extremely privileged compared to black people in SA.

Similarly, black south africans are privileged compared to people from Niger. But that's not the discussion here.

Edit: Admitting you've been privileged by your upbringing and background does not mean that anyone is saying you haven't worked hard. It's just about your starting position, not where you end up.

[Big Nipper]

We are privileged. Taking individual cases of black people who are more privileged than the average white person does not negate the fact that white people are extremely privileged compared to black people in SA.

Similarly, black south africans are privileged compared to people from Niger. But that's not the discussion here.

Well said sir

[Sards]

We are privileged. Taking individual cases of black people who are more privileged than the average white person does not negate the fact that white people are extremely privileged compared to black people in SA.

Similarly, black south africans are privileged compared to people from Niger. But that's not the discussion here.

Edit: Admitting you've been privileged by your upbringing and background does not mean that anyone is saying you haven't worked hard. It's just about your starting position, not where you end up.

Please explain how we are privileged. And what is the comparison . Against fellow South Africans. Compared to Europeans...? Americans..?

Why are we more privileged

[Big Nipper]

We are privileged. Taking individual cases of black people who are more privileged than the average white person does not negate the fact that white people are extremely privileged compared to black people in SA.

Similarly, black south africans are privileged compared to people from Niger. But that's not the discussion here.

Edit: Admitting you've been privileged by your upbringing and background does not mean that anyone is saying you haven't worked hard. It's just about your starting position, not where you end up.

Please explain how we are privileged. And what is the comparison . Against fellow South Africans. Compared to Europeans...? Americans..?

Why are we more privileged

Growing up white in SA makes you exponentially more privileged than your non-white counterparts due to the fact that our parents and generations before them had decades to obtain great wealth, education, and buy houses for peanuts because they had 80% of the population do their dirty work for them at bargain wages. They also made it illegal for the other 80% to compete with them on anything. So when 1994 came by the average white was infinitely more privileged than, say a black kid who grew up in a squatter camp with illiterate parents. And that is not something that miraculously changes in 24 years.

So yeah, count yourself extremely lucky to have been born white in SA

[Sards]

We are privileged. Taking individual cases of black people who are more privileged than the average white person does not negate the fact that white people are extremely privileged compared to black people in SA.

Similarly, black south africans are privileged compared to people from Niger. But that's not the discussion here.

Edit: Admitting you've been privileged by your upbringing and background does not mean that anyone is saying you haven't worked hard. It's just about your starting position, not where you end up.

Please explain how we are privileged. And what is the comparison . Against fellow South Africans. Compared to Europeans...? Americans..?

Why are we more privileged

Growing up white in SA makes you exponentially more privileged than your non-white counterparts due to the fact that our parents and generations before them had decades to obtain great wealth, education, and buy houses for peanuts because they had 80% of the population do their dirty work for them at bargain wages. They also made it illegal for the other 80% to compete with them on anything. So when 1994 came by the average white was infinitely more privileged than, say a black kid who grew up in a squatter camp with illiterate parents. And that is not something that miraculously changes in 24 years.

So yeah, count yourself extremely lucky to have been born white in SA

And the European chicken runners that left with their wealth instead of reinvesting into South Africa. They have no responsibility or privilege because they are living in predominantly white nations...or am I wrong. Its just the 4 million pattsies that remained that must be responsible.

[average joe]

Ja that's the thing, again the us and them mentality. Privilege this and privilege that. In this day and age privilege has nothing to do with skin colour. You have extremely privileged black people and you have white people living in absolute squalor. You get arseholes of all colours and you get good eggs as well.

Is about proportions: In SA white unemployment is at 7%.

The unemployment rate does not necessarily reflect prosperity. A guy can be living in a shack in blikkiesdorp and have a job sorting nails and screws at the local scrap yard for R500 a month. He's fortunate that he's employed and at least has something as opposed to nothing but he's certainly not privileged. Also as per the 2011 census there are close to 52 million people in this country 41 million are black people and 4.5 million white people. Only 62% of black students who made it to matric passed last year and only 11.6% of those got exemptions. 25% white people that matriculated in 2016 obtained a bachelors degree as apposed to only 5% black people.

[Lemoentjie]

I don't get the point you're trying to make Sards.

You/we are privileged because we are white. That is not to say that there aren't some black south africans who are more privileged than some white south africans. But on a national level, it is true.

Chicken runners were very privileged members of south african society, arguably more privileged than the average white south african. When they moved to Europe, they were still very privileged on a worldwide level, but probably less so within the countries they moved to.

That's it.

You might be right that sometimes there are tougher questions- who is more privileged between a white Ukrainian and a black Canadian? But again, that was never the issue Kolisi was discussing.

[Blake]

The reason these discussions are so toxic is because of definitions and the misalignment of definitions between generations.

For this "debate" to be anything other than an inter-generational shitfight you should first agree to a definition of "privilege"...and good luck with that.

[Sards]

Only 62% of black students who made it to matric passed last year and only 11.6% of those got exemptions. 25% white people that matriculated in 2016 obtained a bachelors degree as apposed to only 5% black people.

Is this the real reason why we are " privileged " and for BBEEE

[Sards]

I don't get the point you're trying to make Sards.

You/we are privileged because we are white. That is not to say that there aren't some black south africans who are more privileged than some white south africans. But on a national level, it is true.

Chicken runners were very privileged members of south african society, arguably more privileged than the average white south african. When they moved to Europe, they were still very privileged on a worldwide level, but probably less so within the countries they moved to.

That's it.

You might be right that sometimes there are tougher questions- who is more privileged between a white Ukrainian and a black Canadian? But again, that was never the issue Kolisi was discussing.

Look we know that white privilege was a Bell Pottinger creation.

It was created to protect the Zuma's.

A white South African compared to a white American . Who would you say is more privileged on average.

You won't hear me saying that white Americans are privileged .

Regarding my point. Privilege is only applicable if you take the tools presented to you and have the ability to do something with them. Those without the ability are disadvantaged.

[Big Nipper]

I don't get the point you're trying to make Sards.

You/we are privileged because we are white. That is not to say that there aren't some black south africans who are more privileged than some white south africans. But on a national level, it is true.

Chicken runners were very privileged members of south african society, arguably more privileged than the average white south african. When they moved to Europe, they were still very privileged on a worldwide level, but probably less so within the countries they moved to.

That's it.

You might be right that sometimes there are tougher questions- who is more privileged between a white Ukrainian and a black Canadian? But again, that was never the issue Kolisi was discussing.

Look we know that white privilege was a Bell Pottinger creation.

It was created to protect the Zuma's.

A white South African compared to a white American . Who would you say is more privileged on average.

You won't hear me saying that white Americans are privileged .

Regarding my point. Privilege is only applicable if you take the tools presented to you and have the ability to do something with them. Those without the ability are disadvantaged.

You show that you are not interested in good faith arguments, you did not touch on any of my many reasons for white privilege in my earlier post.

You must love Gareth Cliff's new show on eNCA

[assfly]

The reason these discussions are so toxic is because of definitions and the misalignment of definitions between generations.

For this "debate" to be anything other than an inter-generational shitfight you should first agree to a definition of "privilege"...and good luck with that.

Yes I tend to agree. For me, privilege is just a synonym for luck. It's something you either have or you don't, and there is nothing you can do to control it.

My other problem is that despite the word being thrown around a lot, it is nothing other than a label. 'Acknowledging' luck or privilege doesn't change anything. It doesn't get someone a job, or change someone's life. It's a word that is has a lack of action, and has a virtue signalling element to it.

[average joe]

According to uncle Cyril we lost R1 trillion of tax payers money due to corruption. 1 trillion? How many zero's is that? Now if as a "privileged" white guy I have to pay ever increasing taxes under the guise of uplifting poor black communities because my forefathers fucked up and then some fat corrupt politician steals the money to enrich himself then you cant blame my whiteness. Before we can address white privileged in this country we need to address systematic government corruption.

[DraadkarD]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

[average joe]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

[Sards]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Dignity does not include burning down 2 local schools because you are not allowed to squat on someone else's property. It doesn't include burning down the terminal and any busses that service your community. That's not Dignity. But apparently Dignity is being able to blame it on white people

[Big Nipper]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

White people are not being blamed for everything, but sure would be a big boy step to admit that the draconian system that tapped blacks for decades to accrue personal wealth did not leave a very positive legacy for that majority

[DraadkarD]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Dignity does not include burning down 2 local schools because you are not allowed to squat on someone else's property. It doesn't include burning down the terminal and any busses that service your community. That's not Dignity. But apparently Dignity is being able to blame it on white people

So I guess that is a no to dignity then?

Sards, it's sound like you are complaining now that you have to compete with 90% of the rest of the country after 1994? Time to pull your self up from your boot straps, and stop being so lazy.

[Chilli]

The problem here is that most people's opinions are in sone way right. The legacy of apartheid will linger on for years to come.
Some people are able to overcome huge odds and pull themselves out of the working class, and some people can't. Some people use every opportunity to better themselves, and some people don't or can't. Some people are entrepreneur's and some aren't.

[Sards]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Dignity does not include burning down 2 local schools because you are not allowed to squat on someone else's property. It doesn't include burning down the terminal and any busses that service your community. That's not Dignity. But apparently Dignity is being able to blame it on white people

So I guess that is a no to dignity then?

Sards, it's sound like you are complaining now that you have to compete with 90% of the rest of the country after 1994? Time to pull your self up from your boot straps, and stop being so lazy.

Lazy....dude you got the wrong memo.

[average joe]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

White people are not being blamed for everything, but sure would be a big boy step to admit that the draconian system that tapped blacks for decades to accrue personal wealth did not leave a very positive legacy for that majority

I thought my dad did that back in 1994. If you want me to admit it, then sure, I'll admit it, bad white people who did bad stuff nearly 3 decades ago left a bad legacy for many black people and nether did the 3 decades of black rule that followed it do any better.

[DraadkarD]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

That is corrupt individuals making political statements. So what you are saying it is justice for someone to live in a one room shack, living on R10 a day, because Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma said Covid-19 is apartheid fault?

[average joe]

You guys are throwing around too much “labels” and talking points.

The fact of the matter is that is that a large part of our population was not allowed to participate in the Economy and built wealth. This is a fact. This is still the reason for poverty in this country.

Why can’t black South Africans ask for dignity? Why does it infuriate some white South Africans?

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

That is corrupt individuals making political statements. So what you are saying it is justice for someone to live in a one room shack, living on R10 a day, because Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma said Covid-19 is apartheid fault?

Ah the auld rinkydink "so what you are saying"

No, what I'm saying is if the money that was meant to build the guy a house was stolen by a politician and the deed to the land that the house was suppose to be built on got sold for R500 to an illegal immigrant. How is that then the colour of my skins fault? How is that then something that happened nearly 3 decades ago's fault? Why do I have to apologise for it? Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

[Blake]

The reason these discussions are so toxic is because of definitions and the misalignment of definitions between generations.

For this "debate" to be anything other than an inter-generational shitfight you should first agree to a definition of "privilege"...and good luck with that.

Yes I tend to agree. For me, privilege is just a synonym for luck. It's something you either have or you don't, and there is nothing you can do to control it.

My other problem is that despite the word being thrown around a lot, it is nothing other than a label. 'Acknowledging' luck or privilege doesn't change anything. It doesn't get someone a job, or change someone's life. It's a word that is has a lack of action, and has a virtue signalling element to it.

It is such a messy topic with so many bad faith arguments. Especially since most people define privilege is monetary terms:
"I am privileged to have a roof over my head"
But it is also always measured in relative terms to somebody else who has more wealth.

The modern use of privilege is interesting, because it focuses on the fact that you often don't even realise you even have it. Privilege is the mere fact that you don't have to worry about something. And a lot of that has to do with luck, getting born at a specific place and time with a specific body.

I don't have to worry about going to a run at 05:30 when it is still dark. Most women I know worry about that and have to run with partners.
I don't have to worry about a landlord making a snap judgement about my party habits, but some of my black friends stress every time they need to move house because just can't convince landlords that they are stable, sober tenants.
I don't have mechanics trying to take me for a ride when I take my car in for a service. But the BS some of them pull with their female customers...
My interactions with banks, the media and law enforcement is just my "normal"...but many others have vastly different experiences that are not as insignificant as mine.

The reality is, when you look deep enough, and look beyond the BEE arguments, and you consciously pay attention to how others of different races and genders are treated around you, you'll see there is something there that needs to be explored and rooted out of society. The sooner the better.

It's also why attempts at integration and diversity is so important, because unless you experience these discrepancies with those being affected unjustly, you remain blissfully unaware and just revert back to thinking of privilege is purely monetary terms.

[handyman]

The problem here is that most people's opinions are in sone way right. The legacy of apartheid will linger on for years to come.
Some people are able to overcome huge odds and pull themselves out of the working class, and some people can't. Some people use every opportunity to better themselves, and some people don't or can't. Some people are entrepreneur's and some aren't.

I agree with this and if we can get our politicians to use the money allocated to them correctly, we can help everyone better and sooner.

[DraadkarD]

Because of what I said above. White people are getting fed up with getting blamed for everything by the same politicians who're robbing the country dry.

That is corrupt individuals making political statements. So what you are saying it is justice for someone to live in a one room shack, living on R10 a day, because Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma said Covid-19 is apartheid fault?

Ah the auld rinkydink "so what you are saying"

No, what I'm saying is if the money that was meant to build the guy a house was stolen by a politician and the deed to the land that the house was suppose to be built on got sold for R500 to an illegal immigrant. How is that then the colour of my skins fault? How is that then something that happened nearly 3 decades ago's fault? Why do I have to apologise for it? Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

No one said it's the colour of your skins fault (or yours), but you come from a legacy that has hugely benefited from one the wealthiest economies at one time. You can not ignore that.

[Sards]

That is corrupt individuals making political statements. So what you are saying it is justice for someone to live in a one room shack, living on R10 a day, because Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma said Covid-19 is apartheid fault?

Ah the auld rinkydink "so what you are saying"

No, what I'm saying is if the money that was meant to build the guy a house was stolen by a politician and the deed to the land that the house was suppose to be built on got sold for R500 to an illegal immigrant. How is that then the colour of my skins fault? How is that then something that happened nearly 3 decades ago's fault? Why do I have to apologise for it? Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

No one said it's the colour of your skins fault (or yours), but you come from a legacy that has hugely benefited from one the wealthiest economies at one time. You can not ignore that.

Listen bud...There has always been one wealthy section of the community exploiting those that they can. The Mayans , Crusaders etc. Lift yourself up. On your own.
Stop blaming others for what you are not capable of. We are capable of anything. If we want it bad enough. A little luck also helps.
When you focus on blaming others for your failures instead of learning and pressing on , you will always be the victim and the more determined person the " priveledged one.".

[Chilli]

Largely the fatcats in government don't care about about Black Lives, or White Lives. They seem to only care about enriching their own lives.

However this mustn't be confused with the injustices of the past.

And apartheid shouldn't be blamed for all the problems in the country at the moment and in the future.

At some stage we will all ave to take responsibility for our actions.

A really important question is should my son be disadvantaged because of the sins on his grandfather?

[Big Nipper]

Ah the auld rinkydink "so what you are saying"

No, what I'm saying is if the money that was meant to build the guy a house was stolen by a politician and the deed to the land that the house was suppose to be built on got sold for R500 to an illegal immigrant. How is that then the colour of my skins fault? How is that then something that happened nearly 3 decades ago's fault? Why do I have to apologise for it? Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

No one said it's the colour of your skins fault (or yours), but you come from a legacy that has hugely benefited from one the wealthiest economies at one time. You can not ignore that.

Listen bud...There has always been one wealthy section of the community exploiting those that they can. The Mayans , Crusaders etc. Lift yourself up. On your own.
Stop blaming others for what you are not capable of. We are capable of anything. If we want it bad enough. A little luck also helps.
When you focus on blaming others for your failures instead of learning and pressing on , you will always be the victim and the more determined person the " priveledged one.".

Jesus Christ, using the Crusaders to prove a point is just next level ignorance. Fuck it, I am starting to think the education system during the 80s wasn't as flash as made out to be

[DraadkarD]

Ah the auld rinkydink "so what you are saying"

No, what I'm saying is if the money that was meant to build the guy a house was stolen by a politician and the deed to the land that the house was suppose to be built on got sold for R500 to an illegal immigrant. How is that then the colour of my skins fault? How is that then something that happened nearly 3 decades ago's fault? Why do I have to apologise for it? Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

No one said it's the colour of your skins fault (or yours), but you come from a legacy that has hugely benefited from one the wealthiest economies at one time. You can not ignore that.

Listen bud...There has always been one wealthy section of the community exploiting those that they can. The Mayans , Crusaders etc. Lift yourself up. On your own.
Stop blaming others for what you are not capable of. We are capable of anything. If we want it bad enough. A little luck also helps.
When you focus on blaming others for your failures instead of learning and pressing on , you will always be the victim and the more determined person the " priveledged one.".

Did you not start the thread with this?

"My children cannot get a good paying job because of the color of their skin.....FACT.
What option do they have left......Self employment."

[Sards]

yes......and?

[Sandstorm]

The reason these discussions are so toxic is because of definitions and the misalignment of definitions between generations.

For this "debate" to be anything other than an inter-generational shitfight you should first agree to a definition of "privilege"...and good luck with that.

Privilege is easy: a chance at a good education and a stable environment that allows you to fulfil your potential. See Kolisi recently and millions of White Saffers since the War.

[Sards]

Why should I feel bad about it especially if the guy voted for said politician and continues to vote for them.

Pretty much exactly