The Springboks vs British & Irish Lions 2nd Test Thread

[Paddington Bear]

Trying and failing to beat the Boks at their own game is the natural conclusion of the direction of NH rugby in the pro era. Emphasis on size, the collision, 'hits', all the while people who can't catch and pass on the run are pretty constantly represented in all four Home Nation national teams.

[Brazil]

Trying and failing to beat the Boks at their own game is the natural conclusion of the direction of NH rugby in the pro era. Emphasis on size, the collision, 'hits', all the while people who can't catch and pass on the run are pretty constantly represented in all four Home Nation national teams.

Yeah, I remember talking to Seneca and 4071 about Charlie Hodgson years ago, and they made the point that if he was Australian they'd have built the team around him. England chose to partner him with a declining Tindall and Legohead. The same's true with George Ford - until Smith came along he was the most creative player England have had for a long time, but he's permanently shackled with the deeply ordinary Owen Farrell. I suppose the only seed of hope is that the premiership was won by a team with a devil may care attitude to the consensus who ran the ball at every opportunity, but I suspect we won't see it translate into the national side thanks to the conviction that test match rugby is somehow mystically different and requires a far more limited game plan.

[inactionman]

Trying and failing to beat the Boks at their own game is the natural conclusion of the direction of NH rugby in the pro era. Emphasis on size, the collision, 'hits', all the while people who can't catch and pass on the run are pretty constantly represented in all four Home Nation national teams.

Yeah, I remember talking to Seneca and 4071 about Charlie Hodgson years ago, and they made the point that if he was Australian they'd have built the team around him. England chose to partner him with a declining Tindall and Legohead. The same's true with George Ford - until Smith came along he was the most creative player England have had for a long time, but he's permanently shackled with the deeply ordinary Owen Farrell. I suppose the only seed of hope is that the premiership was won by a team with a devil may care attitude to the consensus who ran the ball at every opportunity, but I suspect we won't see it translate into the national side thanks to the conviction that test match rugby is somehow mystically different and requires a far more limited game plan.

The only mitigation I can see is the limited time to get teams and combinations working - even more so in the case of Lions. Dombrandt plays alongside Smith and Care every day, and Nick Evans et al (is he still coaching at quins? Lost track) have a long period of time interacting with players.

I should make clear I'm in general agreement with you - good, creative players will still be able to adapt to different team mates, it's just not going to be as easy to get it going at international/invitational level. I'd hope there's a middle ground, where some of the more outrageous of the basketball rugby is perhaps dropped but the general basics of attacking rugby maintained. Gatland's teams have sometimes been hard to watch, but the last few tests have been something of an extreme.

Worth noting that Ireland used to have quite a few club combinations (seemed to end up Munster up front and Leinster in the backs), wasn't sure if that was happenstance or by design.

[_Os_]

Perhaps the writing was on the wall from the first test and we just chose to ignore it. An undercooked Sprinbok side absolutely schooled the Lions in the first half before running out of steam in the second half, and still only losing by a few points. 1 week later, a fitter Sprinbok side absolutely strangled the life of out of the Lions who didnt fire a single shot.

What is clear is that Gatland's only tactic is to kick and hope, the Boks will eat that up all day long and do the same back with plenty to spare. If Gatland goes into the 3rd test using the same tacs, it will be an even worse beating for the Lions, i would rather they go down playing some rugby than by this sterile anti rugby shit they are putting out.

The dice need to be rolled and bigtime, Smith has to start, Russell for the good player that he is, is the wrong player for this game, the Boks are gonna come hard at home and he doesnt function well under that type of pressure, his go to is the kick pass, or the flat pass, and given the pressure the boks will be putting him under, guaranteed interception tries there, and the current batch of wings couldnt catch a cold.

Smith offers a running threat that none of then other 10's on tour do and i think that is the key to unlocking this Boks side.

The Lions could easily still win. But it's an odd one, if they get it wrong and fall behind they could also lose very badly, because they're not a real team really. They disintegrated badly in the second half because of that I think, the dirt was a symptom of that.

Wales are the NH side that have given the Boks the most issues in recent times. An all Wales back three of Williams/Adams/Reece-Zammit seems a no-brainier can't take many without much experience so I would take Reece-Zammit over Smith. It's dangerous picking a young guy without much experience like Smith at 10 for a crucial match like this, it could work out, but if it fails it could really hurt their career. Outside of the backthree the rest of the backline doesn't seem to have a huge variation in quality from what has been selected so far (not convinced there's a huge quality difference between Biggar and Farrell or Murray and Price).

The real changes that would improve this Lions side are in the pack, all this stuff about "physically dominate" and "massive pack" being the way to beat the Boks has been a myth for years. The All Blacks aren't huge oversized muscle men. A huge pack is not required to beat the Boks. The forwards the Lions should be selecting are fast and mobile that focus on the rugby (not the other nonsense) and that's the physical and mental attributes they really need beyond the skills (which Lions players should all have anyway). The crucial point is the mobility aspect (the mental aspect you can just get lucky and a dickhead will not be a dickhead for a day, you can't get lucky and be faster for a day). All the Bok players are fast or have big engines and cover a lot of ground, someone like Mostert at lock is not some hulking muscle man he just has a high work rate and covers ground, he just relentlessly plays rugby, Etzebeth is just a freak because he does that and actually is a large unit (he also seems like less of a dickhead these days, but he's nowhere near as mentally strong as Mostert).

So ... Curry and Lawes in the backrow (they've been the best Lions forwards because they fit the job description the best), the eightman I would go with Faletau but I don't know the players well enough to know if there's anyone better, Hamish Watson has done well on tour I don't know if he and Curry/Lawes cover enough positions to have them in the same backrow. At lock AWJ seems to be struggling to make an impact, if a player is a bit slower to the tackle/breakdown than another player would've been then they're a negative, if Itoje focuses on the rugby he's decent if he doesn't he loses all focus and is also a negative. In the second test both Lions locks were negatives. So at lock it's Henderson and if you don't want to take the risk on Itoje then Beirne. Frontrow I don't have many opinions other than Furlong hasn't really impressed me, Sinkler seems like the far better player but is also a dickhead so it comes down to if you want risk the better player who could also cost you the match on a bad day or not.

Obviously I hope the Lions don't do any of this and that the Boks can improve on the second test, get their accuracy/execution better and win more ascendancy earlier, making enough Lions players give up on the rugby and lose it mentally (so obviously I want all the morons to be picked again for the Lions, as that gives the best chance of that). Then pile on whatever points can be grabbed.

[Biffer]

I'm starting to dislike this Lions team and management more and more. This is not only for their petty soccer like whinging and their filthy play, but because they are making me nod in agreement when I read some of what Ox posts

Since when did South Africans not like dirty play?

The last time a Springbok side was as dirty as this Lions side was in the early 2000s, Sky UK made a Rassie style documentary about it.

Meanwhile we're now in the 2020s and the "South Africans are always dirty" thing and the "South Africans are dumb morons you just beat them up violently and they've lost" thing is still believed by most in the UK. Didn't work out like that in this test, but it's still repeated.

If a player is going around biting player's and kneeling a player's neck, every Bok supporter I know will just think that player is a moron who is costing their team, if they're playing for us they'll want them deselected and gone. There's more leniency in views when it's a rugby incident (bad tackle etc) if it was a red or not, the only other times I can remember when there's been a shrug in response to foul play was when both participants clearly wanted to fight.

Hopefully you guys select players that want to win a cage fight for the next test again, they can then win their cage fight and our guys can play some rugby and score tries.

Aye right. There's no one in this current squad who's head butted anyone, or similar dirty play. All as pure as the driven snow so they are. And are we calling 2009 early 2000s? Because your coach then said that eye gouging was part of the sport.

There's nothing funnier than saffers clutching their pearls when someone else is dirtier than they are.

[Chilli]

On throat, or chest?



Enough force to warrant a citing?

Springbok Lives Matter

I hope all the team takes the knee before the next game as a protest

I really hope that the filthy Lions don't take the knee to the Springboks throats before the next game.

[Chilli]

Deeply unedifying stuff all round. Two unambitious sides fighting in an empty stadium, the backdrop to this being the most astonishing rant from a coach I've seen in pro sport.

I agree.
Gatlands rant about the TMO is astonishingly poor

[Chilli]

Mechanisms exist to deal with foul play.

Normalising a sustained attack on match officials will cause long term damage - hopefully WR will sanction SARU for dragging the game into disrepute.

Would add again a few of you were terrible losers last week and awful winners this week - its not a good look.

But they should leave Saint Warren out if it? I mean he never attacked the appointment of the TMO.

Yeah, only South African supporters have contributed. You lot are squeaky clean. Like Itoje

[Chilli]

Deeply unedifying stuff all round. Two unambitious sides fighting in an empty stadium, the backdrop to this being the most astonishing rant from a coach I've seen in pro sport.

The worst part is it clearly worked, meaning similarly abrasive coaches (Jones et al) and other teams with victim complexes (France, Ireland etc) will start to do this. But sure, we'll still see plenty about how morally superior rugby is because some people still call the ref 'sir'.

Don't expect much from Lions series, but not opposed to knocking the whole thing on the head if this is what we get after four years of build up.

This is the salient point - if their are no consequences every coach will need to start doing it or fall behind in the race to influence the ref before a big game. Secondly its crossed a line and is damaging one of the better things about rugby (respect for match officials) something which will reverberate long after a single test match or Lions series.

Right. Rugby strikes me as a bit unique in the extent to which a ref's interpretation of general play can decide a match, and given Rassies' stunt seems to have made a difference to that other coaches would be mad not to engage with it.
They're in high pressure, results based jobs and everything else comes second to that. I'd expect an RFU sanctioned version to a be a more slick, slightly deniable dossier sent to the Telegraph or something but it wouldn't be any less poor or less damaging to the sport.

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

[ASMO]

This is the salient point - if their are no consequences every coach will need to start doing it or fall behind in the race to influence the ref before a big game. Secondly its crossed a line and is damaging one of the better things about rugby (respect for match officials) something which will reverberate long after a single test match or Lions series.

Right. Rugby strikes me as a bit unique in the extent to which a ref's interpretation of general play can decide a match, and given Rassies' stunt seems to have made a difference to that other coaches would be mad not to engage with it.
They're in high pressure, results based jobs and everything else comes second to that. I'd expect an RFU sanctioned version to a be a more slick, slightly deniable dossier sent to the Telegraph or something but it wouldn't be any less poor or less damaging to the sport.

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

Where did he attack the TMO? thats rubbish sorry, what he said was that World rugby should have had better contigency plans in place for the possibility that Covid could cause a problem of this type.

[Sards]

Oh FFS....Enough.....a bunch of vokken children....really.

[Chilli]

Right. Rugby strikes me as a bit unique in the extent to which a ref's interpretation of general play can decide a match, and given Rassies' stunt seems to have made a difference to that other coaches would be mad not to engage with it.
They're in high pressure, results based jobs and everything else comes second to that. I'd expect an RFU sanctioned version to a be a more slick, slightly deniable dossier sent to the Telegraph or something but it wouldn't be any less poor or less damaging to the sport.

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

Where did he attack the TMO? thats rubbish sorry, what he said was that World rugby should have had better contigency plans in place for the possibility that Covid could cause a problem of this type.

Co e on, he threw a hissy fit.
Just ho read the papers from 2 weeks back.

[SaintK]

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

Where did he attack the TMO? thats rubbish sorry, what he said was that World rugby should have had better contigency plans in place for the possibility that Covid could cause a problem of this type.

Co e on, he threw a hissy fit.
Just ho read the papers from 2 weeks back.

FFS revisionist twat!

[average joe]

15. STUART HOGG – 5.5
Scrappy-dappy-do from Hogg, who struggled in the air, especially in the first half. With the Lions not really looking to play a style of rugby that suits his attacking abilities, his selection ahead of Liam Williams doesn’t quite add up.

14. ANTHONY WATSON – 5
Anonymous in the first half and not much better in the second half, conceding three turnovers. Part of a badly malfunctioning Lions back three.

13. CHRIS HARRIS – 7
Huge hit on Lukanyo Am set the tone for the Lions defensive line. Smart, basketball-style handling was a feature of his game on this tour and he brought that here.

12. ROBBIE HENSHAW – 6
TMO interpretation is a massive part of the professional game and Henshaw might well argue he scored his try just before halftime. Defensively sound.

11. DUHAN VAN DER MERWE – 5
A mind-boggling brain fade to soccer kick Cheslin Kolbe off his feet, having already got away with a potentially cardable follow-through tackle that ended PSDT’s evening early. Seemed helpless at times under the high ball. Emotions maybe got to the big man, with the Boks constantly needling him.

10. DAN BIGGAR – 6
Reasonably assured, especially off the boot. Even able to overcome a mystery kidney shot during the fracas preceding Kolbe’s yellow card. Pollard grew into the game where Biggar seemed to stagnate.

9. CONOR MURRAY – 6
Brought back in for the accuracy of his box kicking but the Springboks really got to him here, dirtying up or destroying a lot of Lions’ ball. It was a minute-to-minute affair this evening that should have suited Murray, but the lack of tempo at 9 has been a factor all tour for the Lions.

1. MAKO VUNIPOLA – 6
A strong cameo in the first Test saw him leapfrog Sutherland into the Test team, but Malherbe proved a real headache for Vunipola. Thrived in the hand-to-hand combat and he made the most post-contact metres of any Lions’ forward.

2. LUKE COWAN-DICKIE – 6
His carrying style caused the Boks’ real problems and he was used effectively as a first receiver to eke out metres in the 9 – 10 channel.

3. TADHG FURLONG – 5.5
It became another tit-for-tat battle at the setpiece, with Furlong struggling with the awful surface. Gave away more than his fair share of penalties, although we finally saw him open with some trademark carries.

4. MARO ITOJE – 7
None of the heroics of last week and spent most of his time in the trenches. Cleaned up any number of Lions’ messes.

5. ALUN WYN JONES – 7.5
Got up close and personal with Etzebeth when things boiled over in the opening minutes, and was a constant standard-bearer for the Lions’ physicality, leaving the field a bloodied mess.

6. COURTNEY LAWES – 6
MOTM last week but a quieter shift here. Lost a lineout on the South African line, although the Lions came away with three points a few moments later, partly thanks to teammate Itoje forcing the Boks back over their own line. Lions might well carry more next week and you wonder will Beirne get a shot at starting.

7. TOM CURRY – 6
Got distracted by the off-the-ball stuff and failed to impose himself in a meaningful way against the monstrous Bok pack.

8. JACK CONAN – 6
Missed an opportunity to score off a 34th-minute scrum that was wheeling him towards the line with no defender in sight, when he chose instead to pop it to Murray on the blindside. Tremendously consistent and hard to fault.

By Ian Cameron, Rugbypass

[average joe]

Willie Le Roux

The fullback had a nervy start and struggled under the high ball in the opening minutes. However, he managed to compose himself and put in a noteworthy shift. He was looking for work and even attempted one or two up-and-unders. He made a couple of good runs and was good to see his intensity in the closing stages.
6.5/10

14 Cheslin Kolbe
He was bombarded with red shirts the moment he touched the ball. He missed a couple of tackles and his tackle in the air on Conor Murray saw him handed a yellow card. Not one of his best showings.
5/10

13 Lukhanyo Am
Another class performance by the centre. He marshalled the defence and his work rate is incredible. He made some strong carries and scored the Springboks’ second try.
7/10

12 Damian de Allende.
He is a powerhouse at 12. He asserted himself from the start and made 11 carries and 18 metres. In defence he was just as impressive, making eight tackles and missing just one. His partnership with Am is certainly not in doubt going forward.
8/10

11 Makazole Mapimpi
Unlike last weekend, the wing received ample opportunities and took them with both hands. He handled the aerial challenge well and even got the better of Stuart Hogg in the opening minutes. He scored the Boks’ first try. The wing still has some troubles in the defence and conceded a crucial penalty just short of the half-time break, however overall he was good.
7/10

10 Handre Pollard.
He showed why he is one of the best flyhalves. His tactical kicks were well-executed as he created several try-scoring opportunities, one which included a nicely timed cross-kick that resulted in the Boks’ first try. Unfortunately, his kicking from the tee wasn’t flawless, but overall the No.10 was incredible.
7.5/10

9 Francois de Klerk
The No.9 was in fine form. He was calm and read the game very well. His cover defence, including a neatly collected kick by Dan Biggar, was very good. The no.9 also showed his impressive skills with a clever kick which set up Lukhanyo Am’s try. It was pure class.
8/10

8 Jasper Wiese
The No.8 conceded a penalty in the opening minutes of the match. But other than that he put in a good shift. He added the much-needed physicality to the Boks’ pack. The stats showed he made all of his 14 tackles.
6.5/10

7 Pieter-Steph du Toit
The flank cleaned hard and made a couple of solid tackles before leaving the field after 20 minutes of play. A major concern for the Springboks.
5/10

6 Siyamthanda Kolisi (captain)
The captain put in an immense performance. He was absolutely relentless in defence and made 14 tackles, including a try-saving tackle on Henshaw on the brink of half-time. His stats show he made 22 metres and three carries.
8/10

5 Franco Mostert
The lock continues to put in the hard yards without much fanfare. He hit a couple of rucks and pulled off some good tackles. He stole a crucial line-out in the 34th minute.
7/10

4 Eben Etzebeth
The man is an absolute beast. He worked tirelessly, solid in defence as he ranked up nine tackles. The lock, as usual, was in the thick of the physical battle from the start and his exchanges with Lions captain Alun Wyn Jones in the opening minutes set the tone of the match.
8/10

3 Frans Malherbe
Following last weekend’s bomb squad misfire where he replaced Trevor Nyakane in the second stance, the prop had a lot to prove. It wasn’t a very assertive performance from the prop. However, he did the basics well before being replaced by Vincent Koch.
6/10

2 Mbongeni Mbonambi,
He managed to find his line-out jumpers. However, it was a very quiet performance from the hooker. He conceded a couple of penalties which include a no arms tackle in the first half. Certainly not one of his best displays.
5/10

1 Steven Kitshoff
It was an extra special occasion for the prop who was celebrating his 50th cap and he put in a solid performance. He made eight carries and got the better of Irish legend Tadhg Furlong on a few occasions.
7/10

Replacements:

16 Malcolm Marx (on for Mbonambi, 56th minute)
He made a massive impact with the ball in hand. Not only did the hooker manage to find the line-out jumpers he also dominated the breakdown – making a crucial steal in the closing stages. A much better showing than last weekend’s performance.
7/10

17 Trevor Nyakane (on for Kitshoff, 59th minute)
His impact was absolutely incredible. At scrum time he got the better of Kyle Sinckler – winning a scrum penalty, while his open play was just impressive.
7/10

18 Vincent Koch (on for Malherbe, 56th minute)
Part of the bomb squad with Trevor Nyakane and Malcolm Marx, the prop made a telling contribution.
6/10

19 Lodewyk de Jager (on for Wiese, 55th minute)
The lock made a great impact. He got involved and was incredible with the ball. While his defence was just as impressive.
8/10

20 Marco Van Staden (on for Kolisi, 72nd minute)
Not enough time to be rated

21 Albertus Smith (on for Du Toit, 20th minute)
Demoted from last weekend’s starting XV, the utility forward entered the field very early and put in a solid shift at flank. He made a few good carries and also stole a couple of balls at the breakdown. He conceded a couple of penalties
6.5/10

[Chilli]

According to those scores the Lions should have won by 20.

[Lisbon Nick]

On the Sinckler citing, is there any clear photo or video evidence of the alleged biting? Without such evidence it will be difficult to find him guilty on circumstantial evidence if he denies the offence.

[average joe]

According to those scores the Lions should have won by 20.

Different pundits.

[Paddington Bear]

This is the salient point - if their are no consequences every coach will need to start doing it or fall behind in the race to influence the ref before a big game. Secondly its crossed a line and is damaging one of the better things about rugby (respect for match officials) something which will reverberate long after a single test match or Lions series.

Right. Rugby strikes me as a bit unique in the extent to which a ref's interpretation of general play can decide a match, and given Rassies' stunt seems to have made a difference to that other coaches would be mad not to engage with it.
They're in high pressure, results based jobs and everything else comes second to that. I'd expect an RFU sanctioned version to a be a more slick, slightly deniable dossier sent to the Telegraph or something but it wouldn't be any less poor or less damaging to the sport.

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

It's been covered so many times and is so blindingly obvious what the differences are between the two that there's no point discussing it further.

This is not to say that Gats (or Jones) have entirely clean hands in the current atmosphere in World Rugby, by any means.

[JM2K6]

Not sure about posters not wanting to watch the 3rd test. Test match rugby is not always pretty, winning is the name of the game.

Right up to the point people stop watching?

It's only kak when you lose.

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

[handyman]

Right up to the point people stop watching?

It's only kak when you lose.

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

[_Os_]

Fell the Saffa's here are leaning on the Itoje incident a built much - the obvious over compensation for a disgraceful week of off field antics thats created an awful precedent.

Hmm, no I don't think you understand us.

Rassie has overwhelming support. I haven't spoken to anyone I know, or even read any comments on SA sites that are critical of him. The most there is it's some fear it'll backfire expressed by a minority, but that's not the same as criticising him.

The UK/English reaction to Rassie is just hilarious, I've read the rugby sections of UK papers, it's wall to wall Rassie with short paragraphs on the match. Your players are dirty (UK papers ignored all the incidents involving Lions players but focused heavily on Kolbe), your players are disrespectful, they've taken the soccer dive to the maximum level, Gatland and Jones (not your creations, but furthers the general point) have chatted shit in the media for years. But suddenly it's arms aloft decrying the evil Rassie for destroying the whole sport. It's just impossible to take this seriously, strong whiff of "Boers should know their place" about it too, just like when Brendan Venter rebelliously ate a biscuit.

Dunking on the dirty players, is purely about fans who are told constantly for years they support a dirty side, with little to no actual dirt occurring, having a release.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It's only kak when you lose.

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

I'm going with zero.

Gatland has been trying to bludgeon out wins for his whole career - with some success. I think he'll double down on trying to bosh the Lions to a win.

Maybe a couple of hail mary players on the bench in case it's all gone to shit by halftime.

[JM2K6]

It's only kak when you lose.

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

Really difficult to say. In the past he's been capable of changing tack when needed. But he's become more conservative and, more importantly, he's not been involved in international rugby for a while now, or in British rugby in general. I think with Covid etc he set out his stall as being "we don't know what the fuck to expect, so we're going to coach the most conservative game plan and go for that".

The Lions were dismantled so dramatically that I can certainly see him thinking everything needs to change. But the sheer number of changes that would require suggests it would be a team more likely to get hammered.

I could see him making some tweaks. Adams in for VDM, Williams for Hogg. Farrell to 12, Henshaw 13. Price starting. Watson involved in the back row maybe. Wyn Jones back in. But I don't think he'll be dropping everyone who underperformed or played poorly, and I don't think he'll start Russell or Smith.

[Chilli]

Right. Rugby strikes me as a bit unique in the extent to which a ref's interpretation of general play can decide a match, and given Rassies' stunt seems to have made a difference to that other coaches would be mad not to engage with it.
They're in high pressure, results based jobs and everything else comes second to that. I'd expect an RFU sanctioned version to a be a more slick, slightly deniable dossier sent to the Telegraph or something but it wouldn't be any less poor or less damaging to the sport.

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

It's been covered so many times and is so blindingly obvious what the differences are between the two that there's no point discussing it further.

This is not to say that Gats (or Jones) have entirely clean hands in the current atmosphere in World Rugby, by any means.

Well as long as we all agree that it is not Rassie who is solely blame, and both coaches have indulged in this then all is good.

[handyman]

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

I'm going with zero.

Gatland has been trying to bludgeon out wins for his whole career - with some success. I think he'll double down on trying to bosh the Lions to a win.

Maybe a couple of hail mary players on the bench in case it's all gone to shit by halftime.

Might be to late to try and rescue the game and series in the second half.

[handyman]

Nah bollocks, it was diabolical in the first Test - plenty of complaints then - and everyone was slating it at half time during the 2nd Test, when the Lions were winning. I am completely on board with the idea that tight, forward-dominated games can be good to watch and that winning counts for a lot, but that was the worst Lions Test in terms of quality and rugby being played since the game turned pro, rescued only slightly by the Saffer improvement in the second half. I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

On Sinckler - sadly I think it's probably true, he's unlikely to have been cited off the back of no evidence and his track record is no defence whatsoever. Unbelievably stupid if true.

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

Really difficult to say. In the past he's been capable of changing tack when needed. But he's become more conservative and, more importantly, he's not been involved in international rugby for a while now, or in British rugby in general. I think with Covid etc he set out his stall as being "we don't know what the fuck to expect, so we're going to coach the most conservative game plan and go for that".

The Lions were dismantled so dramatically that I can certainly see him thinking everything needs to change. But the sheer number of changes that would require suggests it would be a team more likely to get hammered.

I could see him making some tweaks. Adams in for VDM, Williams for Hogg. Farrell to 12, Henshaw 13. Price starting. Watson involved in the back row maybe. Wyn Jones back in. But I don't think he'll be dropping everyone who underperformed or played poorly, and I don't think he'll start Russell or Smith.

Smith at 10 would be a big statement, but yeah, tough to see that happening.

[Begbie]

What are the chances of the Lions picking a more attack minded team for the 3rd test? Will Gatland stick to his gameplan? I can't see him changing tactics or selection, that would be close to admitting he got everything wrong from the start.

I'm going with zero.

Gatland has been trying to bludgeon out wins for his whole career - with some success. I think he'll double down on trying to bosh the Lions to a win.

Maybe a couple of hail mary players on the bench in case it's all gone to shit by halftime.

Might be to late to try and rescue the game and series in the second half.

If only we had a "maverick" on the bench capable of orchestrating an unlikely come-back (to be serious though, he's played fuck all rugby recently and I'd rather he didn't become the whipping boy when it goes tits up)

[Uncle fester]

Deeply unedifying stuff all round. Two unambitious sides fighting in an empty stadium, the backdrop to this being the most astonishing rant from a coach I've seen in pro sport.

I agree.
Gatlands rant about the TMO is astonishingly poor

Would you mind linking us to this rant?
It's it on YouTube or Twitter?

[Brazil]

Problem with either Russell or Smith is that it means you have to sacrifice Farrell, and Gatland is highly unlikely to do that, no matter how much we'd want him to. At the very least I'd hope that Biggar is allowed to play with a bit more liberty and is partnered with Price. Whilst I know it's difficult to bring a scratch side together coherently I'd hope the players haven't completely forgotten how to pass and catch the ball since they arrived in SA.

[Chilli]

Deeply unedifying stuff all round. Two unambitious sides fighting in an empty stadium, the backdrop to this being the most astonishing rant from a coach I've seen in pro sport.

I agree.
Gatlands rant about the TMO is astonishingly poor

Would you mind linking us to this rant?
It's it on YouTube or Twitter?

Go read the papers from 2 weeks back

[_Os_]

I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

Is that the Lions which ran less than 50m? If so it has something to do with the team they're playing as well.

"1.24 - The Lions averaged just 1.24 metres per carry against the Springboks in the 2nd Test, the lowest by a tier one team since Opta have recorded this data; 3 of the 7 lowest single-match tallies have been recorded against South Africa since the start of RWC 2019. Nullified."



The UK media has convinced itself that Rassie and Nienaber are sort of Putin and Medvedev, and actually the evil Rassie is really still running everything. But it's more like Han and Chewy. If Nienaber's job title is coach then that's what he's doing. And Nienaber is probably the best defence coach there is.

[Uncle fester]

I agree.
Gatlands rant about the TMO is astonishingly poor

Would you mind linking us to this rant?
It's it on YouTube or Twitter?

Go read the papers from 2 weeks back

Can you quote even one line of his "rant" please?
Just one will do.

[Torquemada 1420]

If only we had a "maverick" on the bench capable of orchestrating an unlikely come-back (to be serious though, he's played fuck all rugby recently and I'd rather he didn't become the whipping boy when it goes tits up)

The problem is not at 10. Biggar has done a decent enough job behind a beaten pack for 120 mins and a snail pace SH for 90 mins. Russell behind the same will simply accentuate the frailties in his game.

[Paddington Bear]

I don't see you mentioning Gatlands unwarranted attack on the TMO.

A week before Rassie retaliated

It's been covered so many times and is so blindingly obvious what the differences are between the two that there's no point discussing it further.

This is not to say that Gats (or Jones) have entirely clean hands in the current atmosphere in World Rugby, by any means.

Well as long as we all agree that it is not Rassie who is solely blame, and both coaches have indulged in this then all is good.

Happy to do so, and if/when Jones pulls similar to Rassie before an England game I will call it out.

[Slick]

Fell the Saffa's here are leaning on the Itoje incident a built much - the obvious over compensation for a disgraceful week of off field antics thats created an awful precedent.

Hmm, no I don't think you understand us.

Rassie has overwhelming support. I haven't spoken to anyone I know, or even read any comments on SA sites that are critical of him. The most there is it's some fear it'll backfire expressed by a minority, but that's not the same as criticising him.

The UK/English reaction to Rassie is just hilarious, I've read the rugby sections of UK papers, it's wall to wall Rassie with short paragraphs on the match. Your players are dirty (UK papers ignored all the incidents involving Lions players but focused heavily on Kolbe), your players are disrespectful, they've taken the soccer dive to the maximum level, Gatland and Jones (not your creations, but furthers the general point) have chatted shit in the media for years. But suddenly it's arms aloft decrying the evil Rassie for destroying the whole sport. It's just impossible to take this seriously, strong whiff of "Boers should know their place" about it too, just like when Brendan Venter rebelliously ate a biscuit.

Dunking on the dirty players, is purely about fans who are told constantly for years they support a dirty side, with little to no actual dirt occurring, having a release.

I've highlghted the bits that just are not true.

And it's hardly just the UK who think Rassie has gone beyond the pale, it's every country except SA.

[JM2K6]

I've never seen a top international team run fewer than 50m with the ball in the first half before. I'm not out there playing, so I'm just judging it as a spectator and an erstwhile fan of Lions tours: It was fucking horrific. Absolutely cancerous.

Is that the Lions which ran less than 50m? If so it has something to do with the team they're playing as well.

"1.24 - The Lions averaged just 1.24 metres per carry against the Springboks in the 2nd Test, the lowest by a tier one team since Opta have recorded this data; 3 of the 7 lowest single-match tallies have been recorded against South Africa since the start of RWC 2019. Nullified."



The UK media has convinced itself that Rassie and Nienaber are sort of Putin and Medvedev, and actually the evil Rassie is really still running everything. But it's more like Han and Chewy. If Nienaber's job title is coach then that's what he's doing. And Nienaber is probably the best defence coach there is.

The Saffers also ran only 77m in the first half, and were losing. They at least changed things up a bit in the second half. Both sides were guilty of dismal rugby for long periods, same as the first game - the one SA lost handily.

[Globus]

Time for a 99 call.

[SaintK]

Fell the Saffa's here are leaning on the Itoje incident a built much - the obvious over compensation for a disgraceful week of off field antics thats created an awful precedent.

Hmm, no I don't think you understand us.

Rassie has overwhelming support. I haven't spoken to anyone I know, or even read any comments on SA sites that are critical of him. The most there is it's some fear it'll backfire expressed by a minority, but that's not the same as criticising him.

The UK/English reaction to Rassie is just hilarious, I've read the rugby sections of UK papers, it's wall to wall Rassie with short paragraphs on the match. Your players are dirty (UK papers ignored all the incidents involving Lions players but focused heavily on Kolbe), your players are disrespectful, they've taken the soccer dive to the maximum level, Gatland and Jones (not your creations, but furthers the general point) have chatted shit in the media for years. But suddenly it's arms aloft decrying the evil Rassie for destroying the whole sport. It's just impossible to take this seriously, strong whiff of "Boers should know their place" about it too, just like when Brendan Venter rebelliously ate a biscuit.

Dunking on the dirty players, is purely about fans who are told constantly for years they support a dirty side, with little to no actual dirt occurring, having a release.

I've highlghted the bits that just are not true.

And it's hardly just the UK who think Rassie has gone beyond the pale, it's every country except SA.

Not worth engaging with.
Sore losers and even sorer winners

[Lemoentjie]

Apparently the Sinckler incident is around the 64 minute mark in a ruck with Mostert