The Haka

[OomStruisbaai]

Slow down the game but it was a good

[OomStruisbaai]

Etsebeth on the haka
S24

"I always wish we can just start the game directly after that," he said with another smile.

"But some of the guys want water first. It's going to be nice to experience it again this week. Hopefully my game-face won't look too bad this time round."

The Kiwis actually left their Kapa O Pango version of the Haka for the Boks and hadn't performed it previously this year, a sign widely regarded as one of massive respect.

And Etzebeth, who's mingled and played together with several New Zealanders since moving to French giants Toulon, is acutely aware of how important the custom is to the All Blacks.

"It's something that really has meaning to them and I believe that's different for every New Zealand player," he said.

"To be honest, for me it's just about experiencing it, it doesn't really matter which version they perform against us. We just enjoy facing it.

"For the Kiwi players it holds a deep meaning and we respect that. But we're standing in a special Green-and-Gold jersey, we just can't wait for the action to start."

[Chilli]

Just what we need, a thread about the haka song & dance routine.

[Gumboot]

Slow down the game

Your lot could always speed the game up by taking all their water breaks before kick off as well.

[assfly]

I saw a clip of TJ Perenara being interviewed live after the game, when he spotted someone doing the haka in the crowd and stopped the interview to stand to attention. A bit cringe.

[Tichtheid]

I know this isn’t allowed now, but the time the Tongan team performed the Sipi Tau at the same time as the ABs did the Haka it was fantastic

[boere wors]

I know this isn’t allowed now, but the time the Tongan team performed the Sipi Tau at the same time as the ABs did the Haka it was fantastic

Not allowed? I thought that was the way to go?!

[OomStruisbaai]

Expect the slow dance Kamati Kamati on saturday

[Enzedder]

Expect the slow dance Kamati Kamati on saturday

At least we don't have an injury break in the middle of it

[OomStruisbaai]

Expect the slow dance Kamati Kamati on saturday

At least we don't have an injury break in the middle of it

Trevor have a longer tongue then any of your All Blacks

[Enzedder]

Expect the slow dance Kamati Kamati on saturday

At least we don't have an injury break in the middle of it

Trevor have a longer tongue then any of your All Blacks

He does, doesn't he . Great 'pukana'.

[Mr Bungle]

I saw a clip of TJ Perenara being interviewed live after the game, when he spotted someone doing the haka in the crowd and stopped the interview to stand to attention. A bit cringe.

You'd cringe if you don't understand what it means to him. When someone performs something special for you, that you hold dear, you cease the interview and give them your undivided attention. Then get back to the interview.

[FalseBayFC]

As an outsider the Haka seems to be both a cultural and spiritual act. Or have qualities of both. Why doesn't the spiritual component attract the same opprobium as other faiths or beliefs? If Christians or Muslims, whose practices similarly have both cultural and spiritual significance, were to perform ritualistic acts before a sports event there would no doubt be an outcry.

I've seen on PR threads of the past, massive criticism of South African and Samoan players forming prayer circles after matches or exhibiting their beliefs or faith in any way.

[OomStruisbaai]

I've seen on PR threads of the past, massive criticism of South African and Samoan players forming prayer circles after matches or exhibiting their beliefs or faith in any way.

PR is luckily like a zoo in the real world.

I always appreciate the haka, its a great rugby tradition and should be valued. But then I am very old school.

[Muttonbird]

Slow down the game but it was a good.

Epic trolling, PB.

[Tichtheid]

As an outsider the Haka seems to be both a cultural and spiritual act. Or have qualities of both. Why doesn't the spiritual component attract the same opprobium as other faiths or beliefs? If Christians or Muslims, whose practices similarly have both cultural and spiritual significance, were to perform ritualistic acts before a sports event there would no doubt be an outcry.

I've seen on PR threads of the past, massive criticism of South African and Samoan players forming prayer circles after matches or exhibiting their beliefs or faith in any way.

I may be wrong on this, and perhaps a passing Kiwi will correct me, but pre-Buck Shelford the Haka was more for the crowd, in fact I have memories of the ABs facing the crowd when it was performed, the famous "awkward uncoordinated white men dancing" Haka at Cardiff is certainly like that.

I'm not 100% sure it was Shelford that made it what it is (rugby-wise) but before him I don't remember it being what it is now.

[boere wors]

I saw a clip of TJ Perenara being interviewed live after the game, when he spotted someone doing the haka in the crowd and stopped the interview to stand to attention. A bit cringe.

You'd cringe if you don't understand what it means to him. When someone performs something special for you, that you hold dear, you cease the interview and give them your undivided attention. Then get back to the interview.

Serious question, can you or another Kiwi explain what it means to TJ and why?!
And further, seeing that 70s haka below: when did it become that powerful, perfectly choreographed tribal dance we see since the 90s. Did the Maoris do it like that since ever, or did especially the rugby transform it into what we see today and back then only the mainly Pākehā players just couldnt do it?

[Slick]

I've seen on PR threads of the past, massive criticism of South African and Samoan players forming prayer circles after matches or exhibiting their beliefs or faith in any way.

PR is luckily like a zoo in the real world.

I always appreciate the haka, its a great rugby tradition and should be valued. But then I am very old school.

I agree , it's great for the game and still gives me goosebumps.

The preciousness can get a little tiring though.

[Thor Sedan]

I saw a clip of TJ Perenara being interviewed live after the game, when he spotted someone doing the haka in the crowd and stopped the interview to stand to attention. A bit cringe.

You'd cringe if you don't understand what it means to him. When someone performs something special for you, that you hold dear, you cease the interview and give them your undivided attention. Then get back to the interview.

Serious question, can you or another Kiwi explain what it means to TJ and why?!
And further, seeing that 70s haka below: when did it become that powerful, perfectly choreographed tribal dance we see since the 90s. Did the Maoris do it like that since ever, or did especially the rugby transform it into what we see today and back then only the mainly Pākehā players just couldnt do it?

The change in the Haka came about when Buck Shelford essentially asked if they were going to do Ka Mate right and respectfully. He took the team to Te Aute College in central Hawkes Bay to have the students perform the Haka in the traditional way. Him and Hika Reid then taught the team the concept behind it, the meaning for the performer and the recipient (this is all on Buck Shelford's Wiki page by the way).

The simple fact that the AB's were doing it with a renewed respect and intensity meant that it filtered down through the general population. A lot of people like me (middle class white kids) suddenly realised that NZ was more than farmers, sheep and rugby. If you ever get the chance to see some of the Haka performed by school kids at farewells or tangi's (funerals) - they are spinetingling - mainly because kids at NZ schools are taught to understand Maori culture which in most cases teaches them respect for it.

To have a haka performed 'at' you is a massive show of respect - so returning that respect by actively partaking, returning the challenge or acknowledging it seems to be pretty much expected from most normal, decent humans. That is probably why TJ reacted the way he did.

And yes - the Haka is also a source of embarrassment in some situations. Some teams have tried to jump on the bandwagon and perform the haka at their chosen arena. But with no real tradition of this being done - it has been greeted with mockery, a lack of interest, aggression or death by a thousand memes (see swimming haka or basketball haka).

The strangest thing - is that not taking any of the stupid rules, preciousness and media 'opinion' - the Haka is really a group of men telling the opposition that they respect them as worthy opponents, welcome their presence and look forward the challenge they will present. It is a huge mark of respect. Whether you like the Haka or not.

[boere wors]

You'd cringe if you don't understand what it means to him. When someone performs something special for you, that you hold dear, you cease the interview and give them your undivided attention. Then get back to the interview.

Serious question, can you or another Kiwi explain what it means to TJ and why?!
And further, seeing that 70s haka below: when did it become that powerful, perfectly choreographed tribal dance we see since the 90s. Did the Maoris do it like that since ever, or did especially the rugby transform it into what we see today and back then only the mainly Pākehā players just couldnt do it?

The change in the Haka came about when Buck Shelford essentially asked if they were going to do Ka Mate right and respectfully. He took the team to Te Aute College in central Hawkes Bay to have the students perform the Haka in the traditional way. Him and Hika Reid then taught the team the concept behind it, the meaning for the performer and the recipient (this is all on Buck Shelford's Wiki page by the way).

The simple fact that the AB's were doing it with a renewed respect and intensity meant that it filtered down through the general population. A lot of people like me (middle class white kids) suddenly realised that NZ was more than farmers, sheep and rugby. If you ever get the chance to see some of the Haka performed by school kids at farewells or tangi's (funerals) - they are spinetingling - mainly because kids at NZ schools are taught to understand Maori culture which in most cases teaches them respect for it.

To have a haka performed 'at' you is a massive show of respect - so returning that respect by actively partaking, returning the challenge or acknowledging it seems to be pretty much expected from most normal, decent humans. That is probably why TJ reacted the way he did.

And yes - the Haka is also a source of embarrassment in some situations. Some teams have tried to jump on the bandwagon and perform the haka at their chosen arena. But with no real tradition of this being done - it has been greeted with mockery, a lack of interest, aggression or death by a thousand memes (see swimming haka or basketball haka).

The strangest thing - is that not taking any of the stupid rules, preciousness and media 'opinion' - the Haka is really a group of men telling the opposition that they respect them as worthy opponents, welcome their presence and look forward the challenge they will present. It is a huge mark of respect. Whether you like the Haka or not.

Cheers Thor, appreciate your thorough answer! It also answers my above question, why the sipi tau and haka are not to be performed simultaneously.

[Chilli]

You'd cringe if you don't understand what it means to him. When someone performs something special for you, that you hold dear, you cease the interview and give them your undivided attention. Then get back to the interview.

Serious question, can you or another Kiwi explain what it means to TJ and why?!
And further, seeing that 70s haka below: when did it become that powerful, perfectly choreographed tribal dance we see since the 90s. Did the Maoris do it like that since ever, or did especially the rugby transform it into what we see today and back then only the mainly Pākehā players just couldnt do it?

The change in the Haka came about when Buck Shelford essentially asked if they were going to do Ka Mate right and respectfully. He took the team to Te Aute College in central Hawkes Bay to have the students perform the Haka in the traditional way. Him and Hika Reid then taught the team the concept behind it, the meaning for the performer and the recipient (this is all on Buck Shelford's Wiki page by the way).

The simple fact that the AB's were doing it with a renewed respect and intensity meant that it filtered down through the general population. A lot of people like me (middle class white kids) suddenly realised that NZ was more than farmers, sheep and rugby. If you ever get the chance to see some of the Haka performed by school kids at farewells or tangi's (funerals) - they are spinetingling - mainly because kids at NZ schools are taught to understand Maori culture which in most cases teaches them respect for it.

To have a haka performed 'at' you is a massive show of respect - so returning that respect by actively partaking, returning the challenge or acknowledging it seems to be pretty much expected from most normal, decent humans. That is probably why TJ reacted the way he did.

And yes - the Haka is also a source of embarrassment in some situations. Some teams have tried to jump on the bandwagon and perform the haka at their chosen arena. But with no real tradition of this being done - it has been greeted with mockery, a lack of interest, aggression or death by a thousand memes (see swimming haka or basketball haka).

The strangest thing - is that not taking any of the stupid rules, preciousness and media 'opinion' - the Haka is really a group of men telling the opposition that they respect them as worthy opponents, welcome their presence and look forward the challenge they will present. It is a huge mark of respect. Whether you like the Haka or not.

Thanks.
I sort of troll the Haka because it is done so often and so poorly as per your observations above. This makes it lose its special essence.

I used to really dig it, like most traditions.

[Mr Bungle]

This doco came out in 2017, worth a watch and gives some deeper understanding of Haka.

Eales is a great man.

If John Eales could have his time again, there's one thing he'd change.

July 6, 1996, at Athletic Park in Wellington, Eales and his Wallabies teammates ignored the All Blacks' haka, instead tossing and kicking balls at the other end of the field.

The Kiwis then inflicted the biggest defeat upon their Tasman rivals, 43-6.

Still haunted by the greatest regret of his glorious rugby career, Eales has recently travelled around New Zealand learning about the haka for a new documentary.

Eales was guided by All Black great Wayne "Buck" Shelford, the man who transformed the haka from a fairweather dance routine to its fiery, aggressive confrontation in the late 1980s.

The pair visited the kumara pit site of the Moari war leader Te Rauparaha, who screamed the famous "Ka mate, ka mate, ka ora, ka ora (I may die, I may die, I may live, I may live)" chant as enemies advanced to kill him unsuccessfully in 1820.

They also visited indigenous schools where Eales was shown how to do the haka, and the gravesite of All Blacks legend Jonah Lomu, who was on the field that day in 1996.

"It has been something that has nagged me," Eales said.

"I remember sitting next to [then Wallabies coach] Greg Smith on the plane on the way over to Wellington. Greg was a great bloke and a great friend, and sadly he's passed on. I'll always appreciate the opportunity he gave me to be captain of the team.

"I had confidence, but I didn't have the full courage of my convictions at that stage, so I stepped into that role, Greg spoke about [ignoring the haka], and instinctively I didn't feel as though it was the right thing to do. But I didn't stand up for myself at that point.

"As a team it wasn't something we spoke a lot about, no one said anything, but they saw that I didn't so they respected that I didn't.

"So I blame myself totally for that. Greg would've been 100 per cent behind me if I said 'I don't think that's the right thing to do', he would've deferred to that.

"So I don't blame him in any way, I blame myself.

"When it came to the day itself and we did our ball skills and drills, we tried to detract a bit from the haka, and we ended up diminishing much more from ourselves.

"When you go out there and play a Test for your country, you want to stand for courage and mateship, and we didn't show any bravery.

"And that was my fault."

Interestingly, the Wallabies also turned their back on the haka in the return match in Brisbane two weeks later. Australia led 16-9 at halftime before losing 32-25.

"We didn't face again at Suncorp, but rather than doing ball skills and drills we did it differently, we pulled in tight into a huddle so it was a different response," Eales said.

"We again didn't face it, but it was a more powerful response, because we drew from our internal selves at that moment, and we almost won that day, they scored a try after the fulltime hooter to beat us.

"I look at the two ways we didn't face it and the first time we didn't draw on each other, whereas the second time we did.

"And when you look at Ireland forming the figure-of-eight to honour Anthony Foley [last November in Chicago), you look at the French forming the arrowhead [in the 2011 World Cup final], they drew on each other.

"By drawing on each other, in a sense you're showing respect because you're saying 'They're challenging us so we've got to draw on each other to accept this challenge'."

Eales pitched the idea of a documentary on the haka to Discovery Channel years ago, but it was seized upon just this year by Mint Pictures.

"This has been a great journey because I've learned an enormous amount about what the haka is," he said.

"The haka is a lot more than a dance as some people might look at it from one side of the fence, it's this challenge that's thrown out to you, and it's even more than that.

"The Ka Mate haka which is the original one, is a deep story about connection to the past for all these people, so when the All Blacks do it, and Buck Shelford was a big part of bringing the context of 'Why do we do the haka?'

"He brought that sense of context and purpose to the haka for New Zealanders.

"I think it's a wonderful part of the game, people look forward to it, and it differentiates rugby from other sports, it's iconic."

And have the Kiwis forgiven Eales?

"Interestingly speaking to a few New Zealanders, some said 'We didn't actually have a problem with you guys not facing it on the day', and some said 'That was disrespectful'," Eales said.

"It wasn't as though they were united in their view, I don't think it quite put us in the category of the underarm delivery."

The one-hour documentary, John Eales Reveals: The Haka will premiere on Discovery Channel in August.

[Uncle fester]

Just what we need, a thread about the haka song & dance routine.

Is it actually the first haka thread here?

[Mr Bungle]

Thanks.
I sort of troll the Haka because it is done so often and so poorly as per your observations above. This makes it lose its special essence.

I used to really dig it, like most traditions.

And you guys have a hugely rich wide range of indigenous cultures in Africa. I guess in NZ we’ve been lucky that many have been immersed in Haka mainly through the sporting sphere. Where indigenous culture has been supressed the Haka has been a gateway to some better understanding of the culture. Still such a long way to go for our country.

[Chilli]

Just what we need, a thread about the haka song & dance routine.

Is it actually the first haka thread here?

I said a thread, not another

[OomStruisbaai]

Ditto!

[OomStruisbaai]

Thank vok we deserved this Haka today.

[Line6 HXFX]

I am just bored of Rugby, which is a professional commercial product, like toothpaste or Tony's Bakery, wrapping itself up in the history and culture of nations, with these nationalistic displays.
I just think it is desperate.

You are not supporting your nation, at war, these commercial concerns and operations would leave the country tomorrow taking the stadiums with them, if it wasn't commercially viable, as quickly as they would hand out TV rights and exclude most of the population from watching it.

Giving rugby unions tax breaks, or even giving them money is also quite disgusting.

I guess Rugby encourages being a fervent, proud Welsh, Scottish or Irish nationalist for 8 weeks a year, and scratching that patriotic itch, and then putting it to bed...and this is probably why the establishment love it.

Not saying Wales and Scotland would be independent nations without Rugby, but having it as a outlet or release valve for patriotism, certainly hasn't helped.

[OomStruisbaai]

1981 Springboks tour to NZ

[Sandstorm]

1981 Springboks tour to NZ

Legends!!

[Ymx]

They are all still alive?

Amazing.

[Chilli]

They are all still alive?

Amazing.

Danie Gerber lives about 200m from me.

[handyman]

They are all still alive?

Amazing.

Danie Gerber lives about 200m from me.

Got a 5 minute voice note from Gerber discussing the Springboks, Rassie and Nienaber with his friends. Let's just say he is not a fan.

[Yr Alban]

I love almost everything about the haka. Love the tradition, love the spectacle, love the celebration of Maori culture. The only thing I don’t love is that it gives NZ a psychological edge they generally don’t need. It’s a war dance, after all, and it’s expected that the opposing team will stand there and be intimidated by it.

Having said that, I wouldn’t want to lose it, so I’m not sure what the alternative would be. Offer all teams a similar opportunity? The issue would be that the Scottish equivalent would be to swagger about and offer your opponent a square go, which wouldn’t quite have the same mystique.

[Gumboot]

I love almost everything about the haka. Love the tradition, love the spectacle, love the celebration of Maori culture. The only thing I don’t love is that it gives NZ a psychological edge they generally don’t need. It’s a war dance, after all, and it’s expected that the opposing team will stand there and be intimidated by it.

Having said that, I wouldn’t want to lose it, so I’m not sure what the alternative would be. Offer all teams a similar opportunity? The issue would be that the Scottish equivalent would be to swagger about and offer your opponent a square go, which wouldn’t quite have the same mystique.

[OomStruisbaai]

They are all still alive?

Amazing.

Danie Gerber lives about 200m from me.

I met Rob Louw and chat a few times. He is an amazing person with interesting stories. Southern suburbs laaitie poach by Doc Craven to Maties. He , Morne du Plessis and Jan Boland Coetzee was the perfect combination. He fight skin cancer for a very long time.

[Sandstorm]

They are all still alive?

Amazing.

Your flour bombs all missed.

[Enzedder]

I love almost everything about the haka. Love the tradition, love the spectacle, love the celebration of Maori culture. The only thing I don’t love is that it gives NZ a psychological edge they generally don’t need. It’s a war dance, after all, and it’s expected that the opposing team will stand there and be intimidated by it.

Having said that, I wouldn’t want to lose it, so I’m not sure what the alternative would be. Offer all teams a similar opportunity? The issue would be that the Scottish equivalent would be to swagger about and offer your opponent a square go, which wouldn’t quite have the same mystique.

If you had faced a haka, you would know it lifts you too.

[OomStruisbaai]

1981 Springbokke had a 40 years reunion in Cape Town.

Performing their own haka

Oom Abe Williams, team manager with the kierie

[assfly]

They look pissed