The Official F1 Thread

[salanya]

JM: there wasn't a 'which penalty they'd accept', they either could take the 2 penalty places, or have it referred to the stewards. Which would probably result in the same penalty.

Or in the 5 seconds penalty he has now.

I agree it's all an absolute mess, partly caused by this mad circuit, and both teams are playing games as well and are just as culpable to the mess.

How often have you seen that sort of bargaining? Red Bull said they'd accept it if lewis stayed in second - why on earth are they being bargained with like that?

I don't think Mercedes have done a lot wrong here.

Red Bull were just clarifying, as the race director had forgotten about Ocon. But whatever their questions, they had nothing to bargain, it was either a yes or a no: either accept that penalty or wait for the steward's penalty. I agree that the interaction was odd, but that was partly because of the red flag situation.

And of course Mercedes were playing games too, Bottas slowing Max in the first yellow flag, Hamilton slowing down to get Max's tyres to cool down. Hamilton questioning the red flag because the tyre wall 'looked fine' showed how frazzled and tense they all were.
Both teams were playing games, on a very dangerous circuit. It needed the likes of Alonso to call for the clearing of the debris etc.

In the end Mercedes have the quicker car. But that move on the third start showed to me why Max has been the better driver overall this year. It's great that it's a close competition for once, but the extra nerves and games are actually hampering the racing.

[JM2K6]

Dicking around under yellow is part and parcel of the sport, happens every time - if it crosses the line they get penalised.

Verstappen needs to understand that he's going to get someone killed if he keeps doing things like this.

Big D: sort of? Verstappen slowed, Lewis came up behind him, then Verstappen slowed quite a bit more and Lewis tried to overtake left at the last second without much room and clipped him - Verstappen then sped off. All very confusing given he was supposed to be giving up the place but also that Lewis didn't overtake him at the beginning.

Edit: oh, and Verstappen did start swerving a bit right at the end of it too

[Big D]

The stewards will need to be really strong next week. There's no point the season being spoiled by one driver taking out the other.

[JM2K6]

Did I miss it or did Verstappen just... Not pit for the five second penalty?

[Kawazaki]

Did I miss it or did Verstappen just... Not pit for the five second penalty?

The 5 seconds are added to his elapsed time.

[salanya]

Did I miss it or did Verstappen just... Not pit for the five second penalty?

The 5 seconds are added to his elapsed time.

Shush, JM is trying really hard to be balanced here

[JM2K6]

Er, it was a genuine question. For some reason I thought it was a drive through penalty.

[Big D]

Max has been summoned to the stewards.

[Sandstorm]

Max has been summoned to the stewards.

Another sponsorship deal?

[Big D]

Max has been summoned to the stewards.

Another sponsorship deal?

alleged breach of Breach of Article 2 (d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code.

This says: "Causing a collision. Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned."

[Lobby]

Er, it was a genuine question. For some reason I thought it was a drive through penalty.

There was some debate about him pitting to get new tyres and go for the fastest lap, but if he had pitted, he would have to have served the five second penalty as well, and this would have put him behind Ocon and Bottas. So the penalty effectively stopped him gaming the system to maintain a lead in the championship.

[JM2K6]

Er, it was a genuine question. For some reason I thought it was a drive through penalty.

There was some debate about him pitting to get new tyres and go for the fastest lap, but if he had pitted, he would have to have served the five second penalty as well, and this would have put him behind Ocon and Bottas. So the penalty effectively stopped him gaming the system to maintain a lead in the championship.

Cheers!

[fishfoodie]

The stewards really, really shouldn't be putting their fingers on the scales at this point in the season !

We're going into the last race; & the two title contenders are on the same points. If they do anything to change that equilibrium; they will rightly be dragged over the coals for this, & a dozen previous decisions, that brought us to this point.

Lets sort this season out on the track; & not the smoke filled back room.

[JM2K6]

Ah. A fan of the "you can't give a penalty in the last minute of the game" ethos.

[Big D]

The stewards really, really shouldn't be putting their fingers on the scales at this point in the season !

We're going into the last race; & the two title contenders are on the same points. If they do anything to change that equilibrium; they will rightly be dragged over the coals for this, & a dozen previous decisions, that brought us to this point.

Lets sort this season out on the track; & not the smoke filled back room.

I guess they should just look at the evidence and decide. If it is close they probably should let it go but if the data shows something pretty clear and obvious they need to act. I suspect it will be nothing.

Next week could be great for the sport but it could be really bad too. If it ends on a collision, it could end up a black mark on the sport.

[fishfoodie]

Ah. A fan of the "you can't give a penalty in the last minute of the game" ethos.

More a case of the; "if you're going to give penalties after the fact; don't complain, if teams want to re-litigate every decision of the season !"

A decision now has way; way more impact than one in races 1 thru 5.

[Big D]

One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

[fishfoodie]

One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

a lot of it comes back to the elimination of the gravel traps; & the way the edge of the tracks, is a nebulous thing now.

If you make going over the white line, an experience that will wind you up in the pits for a new nose; you don't have to worry about drivers giving back places.

[Big D]

One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

a lot of it comes back to the elimination of the gravel traps; & the way the edge of the tracks, is a nebulous thing now.

If you make going over the white line, an experience that will wind you up in the pits for a new nose; you don't have to worry about drivers giving back places.

True but they probably aren't bringing gravel traps back unfortunately.

[fishfoodie]

One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

a lot of it comes back to the elimination of the gravel traps; & the way the edge of the tracks, is a nebulous thing now.

If you make going over the white line, an experience that will wind you up in the pits for a new nose; you don't have to worry about drivers giving back places.

True but they probably aren't bringing gravel traps back unfortunately.

Maybe not; but it would be a trivial effort to use the sensors at the edges of the track, to immediately disable the energy harvesting; for the rest of the race; so that if you take a short cut; you lose the boost for the rest of the race.

that or install the deconstructor kerbs at every track; & let the drivers learn the hard way.

[Insane_Homer]

Fucking hell, what an utter shit show!

Since when does the race director negotiate and make offers to teams? No wonder Totto bullies them so easily.

It's all going to end in tears next weekend.

on the +side

[Insane_Homer]

It look 1hr 17 mins to do the first 17 laps.

Can't help think RB missed a trick with the first corner restart, they could very easily have argued that Max saw Bottas locking up behind him and had to overshoot the corner to avoid being collected from behind. Had Max been only slightly earlier on the brakes, Bottas would have hit him. Arguing he had to take avoiding action and leave the track to avoid an accident might have helped them a little.

As for Max being the only one at fault for the let him past, "brake test" is a bit harsh, they were both playing games trying to not get to the DRS line first. Merc argument that Lewis' didn't know why Max was slowing down is bollocks. He knew exactly what he was doing. He clearly slowed down and stayed directly behind Max, they were both in 3rd gear (from 8th) when the contact happened.

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

[Lobby]

It look 1hr 17 mins to do the first 17 laps.

Can't help think RB missed a trick with the first corner restart, they could very easily have argued that Max say Bottas locking up behind him and had to overshoot the corner to avoid being collected from behind. Had Max been only slightly earlier on the brakes, Bottas would have hit him. Arguing he had to take avoiding action and leave the track to avoid an accident might have helped them a little.

As for Max being the only one at fault for the let him past, "brake test" is a bit harsh, they were both playing games trying to not get to the DRS line first. Merc argument that Lewis' didn't know why Max was slowing down is bollocks. He knew exactly what he was doing. He clearly slowed down and stayed directly behind Max, they were both in 3rd gear (from 8th) when the contact happened.

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

The Stewards recognised that both drivers were trying to avoid being in the lead in the DRS zone, but penalised Max for what they described as his erratic braking:

"it was obvious that neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to the DRS detection line ... The key point was that [Verstappen] then braked suddenly [at 69 bar] and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration… The sudden braking was determined to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision."

[Slick]

Glad I stayed up to watch the C4 program last night, terrific stuff.

I must say that before this season I was fairly ambivalent towards Hamilton but have become a big fan. He comes over as a moany fucker in the car but it's difficult to make judgements about that when none of us know the pressure these guys are under. But his driving, and attitude away from the car, are exceptional, a phenomenal sportsman.

[Thor Sedan]

It is interesting that Max was seemingly the new 'good guy' on the block to challenge Hamilton's 'bad guy' character when this rivalry first kicked off.

But public opinion seems to have switched. Max is now the Prost to Hamilton's Senna.

[mos_eisely_]

It look 1hr 17 mins to do the first 17 laps.

Can't help think RB missed a trick with the first corner restart, they could very easily have argued that Max saw Bottas locking up behind him and had to overshoot the corner to avoid being collected from behind. Had Max been only slightly earlier on the brakes, Bottas would have hit him. Arguing he had to take avoiding action and leave the track to avoid an accident might have helped them a little.

As for Max being the only one at fault for the let him past, "brake test" is a bit harsh, they were both playing games trying to not get to the DRS line first. Merc argument that Lewis' didn't know why Max was slowing down is bollocks. He knew exactly what he was doing. He clearly slowed down and stayed directly behind Max, they were both in 3rd gear (from 8th) when the contact happened.

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

I think the Red Flag situation saved Bottas from further investigation into the go slow behind the SC.

Massi clarified to RBR that Hamilton could be further back on the way to the grid for the restart because it was a formation lap not a racing lap under the safety car

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

Whether the regs allow for it or not the instance of Bottas going slow was putting the interests of Mercedes above the race, and amusingly didn't work out for them anyway.

Not sure what the regs are either on restart formation laps, but I'll state with confidence it's something that's happened the other way around when Lewis has been on pole. More generally it should be looked at, and maybe it's as simple as anyone who doesn't stay within 10 car lengths simply gets a drive through, or if they'd run out of laps to do a drive through a 10 second penalty

[assfly]

Glad I stayed up to watch the C4 program last night, terrific stuff.

I must say that before this season I was fairly ambivalent towards Hamilton but have become a big fan. He comes over as a moany fucker in the car but it's difficult to make judgements about that when none of us know the pressure these guys are under. But his driving, and attitude away from the car, are exceptional, a phenomenal sportsman.

I've tried my best not to like Hamilton and was hoping that Max could win the championship to change things, but I must credit Hamilton with how he goes about and his balance of patience and aggression as a driver. He's become very hard not to like and admire.

[assfly]

Any of our bored experts care to enlighten me as to why Hamilton has been so much better than Verstappen in the second half of the season? I understand that there have been issues regarding changing of engines, but feels like it's more than that.

[Insane_Homer]

Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

[Lobby]

Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

[Kawazaki]

Any of our bored experts care to enlighten me as to why Hamilton has been so much better than Verstappen in the second half of the season? I understand that there have been issues regarding changing of engines, but feels like it's more than that.

He had covid pre-vaccines and got some fairly nasty symptoms apparently.

[sturginho]

Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It is interesting that Max was seemingly the new 'good guy' on the block to challenge Hamilton's 'bad guy' character when this rivalry first kicked off.

But public opinion seems to have switched. Max is now the Prost to Hamilton's Senna.

I see this the other way round.

Senna & Schumacher were the masters of "let me through or we crash" & "run my opponent off the road" driving . Prost did it to Senna once but mostly was very pragmatic, particularly when they were in the same team.

I really thought we'd got rid of that sort of idiotic driving but Max has brought it back. The issue is that F1 is desperate for a competitive championship & somebody other than Mercedes to win and so are working hard to overlook Max driving like a twat.

[Thor Sedan]

It is interesting that Max was seemingly the new 'good guy' on the block to challenge Hamilton's 'bad guy' character when this rivalry first kicked off.

But public opinion seems to have switched. Max is now the Prost to Hamilton's Senna.

I see this the other way round.

Senna & Schumacher were the masters of "let me through or we crash" & "run my opponent off the road" driving . Prost did it to Senna once but mostly was very pragmatic, particularly when they were in the same team.

I really thought we'd got rid of that sort of idiotic driving but Max has brought it back. The issue is that F1 is desperate for a competitive championship & somebody other than Mercedes to win and so are working hard to overlook Max driving like a twat.

I think I was comparing the fact that Senna seemed to have the love of the F1 community - was seen as a hero. Prost was a brilliant driver - but perhaps seen as the Yin to Senna's Yang.

[JM2K6]

Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

Unless he kills someone (or himself) I can't see how Max won't dominate as soon as Lewis retires. At some point he will be forced to wind his neck in, even if it's just because there'll be no real opposition to him, and the sport will be all the better for it.

[Thor Sedan]

For those of the big F1 brain - whose car set up will Abu Dhabi suit?

[fishfoodie]

No big brain; but history says Merc won six times in a row between 2014 and 2019, before Max won last year’s race.

The unknown is; they've made some changes to the track this year to increase the opportunities for overtaking; but who knows if they'll work.



https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Insek.html

[Big D]

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

Unless he kills someone (or himself) I can't see how Max won't dominate as soon as Lewis retires. At some point he will be forced to wind his neck in, even if it's just because there'll be no real opposition to him, and the sport will be all the better for it.

It will really depend on the cars. I'd expect Russell to be a lot closer to both than Bottas. With the right car he could provide a challenge. Leclerc and Norris could be racy in a competitive car too. Although I don't think Norris is as quick as the others.

[JM2K6]

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

Unless he kills someone (or himself) I can't see how Max won't dominate as soon as Lewis retires. At some point he will be forced to wind his neck in, even if it's just because there'll be no real opposition to him, and the sport will be all the better for it.

It will really depend on the cars. I'd expect Russell to be a lot closer to both than Bottas. With the right car he could provide a challenge. Leclerc and Norris could be racy in a competitive car too. Although I don't think Norris is as quick as the others.

They'll be good, but I do think Verstappen is a generational talent.