The Official English Rugby Thread

[petej]

A friend asked earlier: "Are Wasps going to do a London Welsh with a debt that big?" Adding that it seems like Fekitoa, Vaea, and even Gopperth are on the way out.

Can't say I know a thing about finance and how much debt someone/a club can carry, it did seem like they have a lot. I did, however, read that Coventry City are only just back or coming back for a 10 year deal. Should bring some money in?

Tbf , Gopperth's going to be 39 shortly after this season finishes. His situation isn't like the other two. He could probably keep going by current on field evidence, but I'm pretty sure he'd been intending to have phased our more by now and probably would have had we not had our injury crisis (particularly if Ryan Mills had been more available).

I'm also too ignorant to know whether our financial situation is awful, bad or ok for a rugby club, but I have to think that if we're bringing in the likes of Koch then the other two leaving owes more to overall management of a reduced salary cap than our situation meaning we can't have big money signings any more.

Our debt is sort of more official than some others, who just have a rich owner who can write it off (we have a bit of that too), but at the same time we've got a huge asset to offset it again, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

I've always assumed Wasps are in a better long term position due to owning their ground.

[inactionman]

Bath are at home playing Worcester who have had a man sent off after 6 minutes.

If they can't win this game then I think we can officially call them the worst Premiership team of all time.

Worcester in front 14-19, just need one more for a try bonus.

Made hard work of that.

Only took 60-odd minutes to establish a lead, playing at home against the second-bottom team who had been reduced to 14 men inside 10 minutes.

[Slick]

Tbf , Gopperth's going to be 39 shortly after this season finishes. His situation isn't like the other two. He could probably keep going by current on field evidence, but I'm pretty sure he'd been intending to have phased our more by now and probably would have had we not had our injury crisis (particularly if Ryan Mills had been more available).

I'm also too ignorant to know whether our financial situation is awful, bad or ok for a rugby club, but I have to think that if we're bringing in the likes of Koch then the other two leaving owes more to overall management of a reduced salary cap than our situation meaning we can't have big money signings any more.

Our debt is sort of more official than some others, who just have a rich owner who can write it off (we have a bit of that too), but at the same time we've got a huge asset to offset it again, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

I've always assumed Wasps are in a better long term position due to owning their ground.

What kind of crowds do they get these days?

[Lobby]

Bath are at home playing Worcester who have had a man sent off after 6 minutes.

If they can't win this game then I think we can officially call them the worst Premiership team of all time.

Worcester in front 14-19, just need one more for a try bonus.

Made hard work of that.

Only took 60-odd minutes to establish a lead, playing at home against the second-bottom team who had been reduced to 14 men inside 10 minutes.

I think '10 minutes' underestimates the scale of Bath's achievement.

The BBC report states that the red card was issued after just 76 seconds, so Worcester actually had to play 78 and a bit minutes with 14 men.

[sockwithaticket]

Our debt is sort of more official than some others, who just have a rich owner who can write it off (we have a bit of that too), but at the same time we've got a huge asset to offset it again, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

I've always assumed Wasps are in a better long term position due to owning their ground.

What kind of crowds do they get these days?

Far less than we did pre-pandemic. I haven't seen any solid numbers, but it's been speculated at around 6k. Of course our middling to poor form hasn't helped entice anyone back to the stadium. Hopefully the last couple of home wins can mean at least the recovery of our home record and bring a few more bums to the arena's largely empty seats.

[Madness]

Having watched the Wasps game last night I came to the conclusion that there are several teams who have a real weakness at scrum half at the moment. I know it gets tougher when like Sale you have a world class and a great young talent who are both injured but some other teams seem to be hampered by poor or at best very workmanlike 9s.

Tigers - probably best selection of 9s -- Youngs, Wiggles, Van PTF
Saracens - Davies, Van Zyl not as strong as previous squads
Harlequins - so dependent on Care staying fit and playing his normal 80 mins a game
Glos - Meehan?? Pack look really good and some class backs but he really hampers them constantly trying to decide which foot he's going to box off. Stop showing off and get the ball moving.
Saints - Like Mitchell and James seems to have a quick service
Chiefs - Don't see what the Maunders offer, was easy for them when Exeters pick and go game was always giving them front foot ball but offer no threat at moment, missing Nick White a lot
Irish - Nick Phipps is on lots of money and Ben White seems to be the backup and he was seen as the future at Leicester for a couple of years
Wasps - Robson is so important to Wasps, Wolstenhome has a slow service which is terrible for the way wasps play, Porter made a huge difference vs Leicester
Falcons - Being honest haven't seen enough of them
Sale - as mentioned above
Bristol - Big fan of Randall although his kicking game was not the best against Sale, big drop off to Uren
Warriors - Heinz and Simpson are a decent if aging set of 9s.
Bath - I do rate Spencer so was very surprised to see Fox start vs Warriors but Fox appears to be much more 'coached' and playing to set plans rather than Spencer.

Glos and Exeter are the teams, ignoring injuries, who would gain the most from bringing in a better 9, Wasps are fucked if they continue with Wolstenhome, Sarries not the threat or skill of previous at 9

[Raggs]

Having watched the Wasps game last night I came to the conclusion that there are several teams who have a real weakness at scrum half at the moment. I know it gets tougher when like Sale you have a world class and a great young talent who are both injured but some other teams seem to be hampered by poor or at best very workmanlike 9s.

Tigers - probably best selection of 9s -- Youngs, Wiggles, Van PTF
Saracens - Davies, Van Zyl not as strong as previous squads
Harlequins - so dependent on Care staying fit and playing his normal 80 mins a game
Glos - Meehan?? Pack look really good and some class backs but he really hampers them constantly trying to decide which foot he's going to box off. Stop showing off and get the ball moving.
Saints - Like Mitchell and James seems to have a quick service
Chiefs - Don't see what the Maunders offer, was easy for them when Exeters pick and go game was always giving them front foot ball but offer no threat at moment, missing Nick White a lot
Irish - Nick Phipps is on lots of money and Ben White seems to be the backup and he was seen as the future at Leicester for a couple of years
Wasps - Robson is so important to Wasps, Wolstenhome has a slow service which is terrible for the way wasps play, Porter made a huge difference vs Leicester
Falcons - Being honest haven't seen enough of them
Sale - as mentioned above
Bristol - Big fan of Randall although his kicking game was not the best against Sale, big drop off to Uren
Warriors - Heinz and Simpson are a decent if aging set of 9s.
Bath - I do rate Spencer so was very surprised to see Fox start vs Warriors but Fox appears to be much more 'coached' and playing to set plans rather than Spencer.

Glos and Exeter are the teams, ignoring injuries, who would gain the most from bringing in a better 9, Wasps are fucked if they continue with Wolstenhome, Sarries not the threat or skill of previous at 9

I believe Wusty is our 4th choice, don't think any side will look good when they go that deep. Porter got a knock I think a few weeks back. Hopefully he'll be back to starting, as I definitely agree that we won't do that well with Wusty starting.

[sockwithaticket]

Having watched the Wasps game last night I came to the conclusion that there are several teams who have a real weakness at scrum half at the moment. I know it gets tougher when like Sale you have a world class and a great young talent who are both injured but some other teams seem to be hampered by poor or at best very workmanlike 9s.

Tigers - probably best selection of 9s -- Youngs, Wiggles, Van PTF
Saracens - Davies, Van Zyl not as strong as previous squads
Harlequins - so dependent on Care staying fit and playing his normal 80 mins a game
Glos - Meehan?? Pack look really good and some class backs but he really hampers them constantly trying to decide which foot he's going to box off. Stop showing off and get the ball moving.
Saints - Like Mitchell and James seems to have a quick service
Chiefs - Don't see what the Maunders offer, was easy for them when Exeters pick and go game was always giving them front foot ball but offer no threat at moment, missing Nick White a lot
Irish - Nick Phipps is on lots of money and Ben White seems to be the backup and he was seen as the future at Leicester for a couple of years
Wasps - Robson is so important to Wasps, Wolstenhome has a slow service which is terrible for the way wasps play, Porter made a huge difference vs Leicester
Falcons - Being honest haven't seen enough of them
Sale - as mentioned above
Bristol - Big fan of Randall although his kicking game was not the best against Sale, big drop off to Uren
Warriors - Heinz and Simpson are a decent if aging set of 9s.
Bath - I do rate Spencer so was very surprised to see Fox start vs Warriors but Fox appears to be much more 'coached' and playing to set plans rather than Spencer.

Glos and Exeter are the teams, ignoring injuries, who would gain the most from bringing in a better 9, Wasps are fucked if they continue with Wolstenhome, Sarries not the threat or skill of previous at 9

I'll be amazed if we don't see Porter starting until Robson's back now. He pulled out of the Munster game a few weeks back in the warm up with an injury and since then he's been on the bench, but it's been long enough for him to have recovered now and the difference in performance was stark.

As a general point that doesn't just apply to scrum halves, it's so tricky to find and keep even 2 quality players in the same position. If one's first choice and the other has anything about them then the latter will be looking to move on for more opportunities to start.

[inactionman]

I've always assumed Wasps are in a better long term position due to owning their ground.

What kind of crowds do they get these days?

Far less than we did pre-pandemic. I haven't seen any solid numbers, but it's been speculated at around 6k. Of course our middling to poor form hasn't helped entice anyone back to the stadium. Hopefully the last couple of home wins can mean at least the recovery of our home record and bring a few more bums to the arena's largely empty seats.

Havre they sorted the train issues?

I recall that the timetabling was never convenient for rugby fans, which doesn't help with getting bums on seats

[Madness]

Having watched the Wasps game last night I came to the conclusion that there are several teams who have a real weakness at scrum half at the moment. I know it gets tougher when like Sale you have a world class and a great young talent who are both injured but some other teams seem to be hampered by poor or at best very workmanlike 9s.

Tigers - probably best selection of 9s -- Youngs, Wiggles, Van PTF
Saracens - Davies, Van Zyl not as strong as previous squads
Harlequins - so dependent on Care staying fit and playing his normal 80 mins a game
Glos - Meehan?? Pack look really good and some class backs but he really hampers them constantly trying to decide which foot he's going to box off. Stop showing off and get the ball moving.
Saints - Like Mitchell and James seems to have a quick service
Chiefs - Don't see what the Maunders offer, was easy for them when Exeters pick and go game was always giving them front foot ball but offer no threat at moment, missing Nick White a lot
Irish - Nick Phipps is on lots of money and Ben White seems to be the backup and he was seen as the future at Leicester for a couple of years
Wasps - Robson is so important to Wasps, Wolstenhome has a slow service which is terrible for the way wasps play, Porter made a huge difference vs Leicester
Falcons - Being honest haven't seen enough of them
Sale - as mentioned above
Bristol - Big fan of Randall although his kicking game was not the best against Sale, big drop off to Uren
Warriors - Heinz and Simpson are a decent if aging set of 9s.
Bath - I do rate Spencer so was very surprised to see Fox start vs Warriors but Fox appears to be much more 'coached' and playing to set plans rather than Spencer.

Glos and Exeter are the teams, ignoring injuries, who would gain the most from bringing in a better 9, Wasps are fucked if they continue with Wolstenhome, Sarries not the threat or skill of previous at 9

I'll be amazed if we don't see Porter starting until Robson's back now. He pulled out of the Munster game a few weeks back in the warm up with an injury and since then he's been on the bench, but it's been long enough for him to have recovered now and the difference in performance was stark.

As a general point that doesn't just apply to scrum halves, it's so tricky to find and keep even 2 quality players in the same position. If one's first choice and the other has anything about them then the latter will be looking to move on for more opportunities to start.

This may well be an interesting development with the reduced salary cap that it you can't afford to pay a good 2nd choice player enough to overcome a lack of game time. As mentioned on BT sport rugby it may well mean that younger players get more chances to fill in for first team injuries rather than having a well paid back up bench.

[sockwithaticket]

What kind of crowds do they get these days?

Far less than we did pre-pandemic. I haven't seen any solid numbers, but it's been speculated at around 6k. Of course our middling to poor form hasn't helped entice anyone back to the stadium. Hopefully the last couple of home wins can mean at least the recovery of our home record and bring a few more bums to the arena's largely empty seats.

Havre they sorted the train issues?

I recall that the timetabling was never convenient for rugby fans, which doesn't help with getting bums on seats

No idea I'm afraid.

I did catch a quote from Ed Griffiths not that long ago saying that Wasps' generous use of free tickets was going to bite them because it's much harder to convince someone to pay for something they once got for free than to pay for it in the first place.

[inactionman]

Worcester in front 14-19, just need one more for a try bonus.

Made hard work of that.

Only took 60-odd minutes to establish a lead, playing at home against the second-bottom team who had been reduced to 14 men inside 10 minutes.

I think '10 minutes' underestimates the scale of Bath's achievement.

The BBC report states that the red card was issued after just 76 seconds, so Worcester actually had to play 78 and a bit minutes with 14 men.

Very sporting by Worcester, sacrificing a front row to make a game of it.

[sockwithaticket]

I'll be amazed if we don't see Porter starting until Robson's back now. He pulled out of the Munster game a few weeks back in the warm up with an injury and since then he's been on the bench, but it's been long enough for him to have recovered now and the difference in performance was stark.

As a general point that doesn't just apply to scrum halves, it's so tricky to find and keep even 2 quality players in the same position. If one's first choice and the other has anything about them then the latter will be looking to move on for more opportunities to start.

This may well be an interesting development with the reduced salary cap that it you can't afford to pay a good 2nd choice player enough to overcome a lack of game time. As mentioned on BT sport rugby it may well mean that younger players get more chances to fill in for first team injuries rather than having a well paid back up bench.

How they handle it will definitely be interesting - you can try and keep paying top rate for the best and back fill with youth, but I think it'd be better for clubs in the round to look at paying less across the board. Given the finances of most Prem clubs the old cap was really unsustainable and while this revised one is due for review, I wouldn't be surprised to see it stay lower than previous levels even if it does increase beyond £5 million, which means players will need to get used to the idea of smaller pot form which to draw wages.

I also don't think some of the salary gaps we see are particularly healthy. Is someone like Piutau really worth that much more than Henry Purdy? One is clearly the much more talented player, but how often does that actually translate on the pitch? Is it really worth the differential in their salaries?

[inactionman]

Far less than we did pre-pandemic. I haven't seen any solid numbers, but it's been speculated at around 6k. Of course our middling to poor form hasn't helped entice anyone back to the stadium. Hopefully the last couple of home wins can mean at least the recovery of our home record and bring a few more bums to the arena's largely empty seats.

Havre they sorted the train issues?

I recall that the timetabling was never convenient for rugby fans, which doesn't help with getting bums on seats

No idea I'm afraid.

I did catch a quote from Ed Griffiths not that long ago saying that Wasps' generous use of free tickets was going to bite them because it's much harder to convince someone to pay for something they once got for free than to pay for it in the first place.

Very dated article (and apologies for linking to the Mirror):
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/f ... ng-6317574

I'm going to assume this has been sorted, would think it's a real deal breaker for many fans if they can't easily get to the match and back

[Phredd]

Having watched the Wasps game last night I came to the conclusion that there are several teams who have a real weakness at scrum half at the moment.
...
Wasps - Robson is so important to Wasps, Wolstenhome has a slow service which is terrible for the way wasps play, Porter made a huge difference vs Leicester
...

Have to agree, but don't forget they also have Hougaard, who was really impressive on the wing yesterday.

At last they are beginning to get players back from injury (Mills was on the bench, but not used), so we could see Hougaard playing at No. 9 again.

Also it is hopefull that Robson will be back in next few weeks.

[Kawazaki]

Worcester in front 14-19, just need one more for a try bonus.

Made hard work of that.

Only took 60-odd minutes to establish a lead, playing at home against the second-bottom team who had been reduced to 14 men inside 10 minutes.

I think '10 minutes' underestimates the scale of Bath's achievement.

The BBC report states that the red card was issued after just 76 seconds, so Worcester actually had to play 78 and a bit minutes with 14 men.

I've just watched it on the highlights. It's literally the second tackle of the match at 14 seconds or the first tackle after Worcester tackle the bath player who caught the kick to start the match. It's pathetic by Maxwell-keyes to be honest, he should be severely censured by the league for it.

Watch here...

[robmatic]

Made hard work of that.

Only took 60-odd minutes to establish a lead, playing at home against the second-bottom team who had been reduced to 14 men inside 10 minutes.

I think '10 minutes' underestimates the scale of Bath's achievement.

The BBC report states that the red card was issued after just 76 seconds, so Worcester actually had to play 78 and a bit minutes with 14 men.

I've just watched it on the highlights. It's literally the second tackle of the match at 14 seconds or the first tackle after Worcester tackle the bath player who caught the kick to start the match. It's pathetic by Maxwell-keyes to be honest, he should be severely censured by the league for it.

Watch here...

Is that not just a rugby collision?

[Kawazaki]

It's pathetic.

It just demonstrates that the ref has absolutely no affinity with the game whatsoever. There no thought to the game of rugby at all.

[Monk]

Appalling refereeing


Another thing is to not show these replays live on the stadium screen as the crowd reaction clearly influences impressionable youths like Master Maxwell-Keyes

And another thing - what happened to the recent protocol for marching back props for showing dissent at the scrum penalties? They were raising their eyebrows, shaking their heads and smiling disbelievingly with impunity this weekend.

[sockwithaticket]

It looks fairly soft by the standard of some head contact hits, but, as I understand it, that has to be a red in the current framework. Upright tackler instigates a head to head contact, no mitigation like the tackler or tackled player being pushed off balance by others.

[Kawazaki]

It looks fairly soft by the standard of some head contact hits, but, as I understand it, that has to be a red in the current framework. Upright tackler instigates a head to head contact, no mitigation like the tackler or tackled player being pushed off balance by others.

It was a nonsense red card.

[sockwithaticket]

He applied the laws under current directives. Now, there's a discussion as to whether those are right, but, much as it pains me to say given how much I feel he's fucked Wasps over in games, CMK hasn't erred here. The idea of his being censured for this is fanciful in the extreme.

[JM2K6]

Appalling refereeing


Another thing is to not show these replays live on the stadium screen as the crowd reaction clearly influences impressionable youths like Master Maxwell-Keyes

And another thing - what happened to the recent protocol for marching back props for showing dissent at the scrum penalties? They were raising their eyebrows, shaking their heads and smiling disbelievingly with impunity this weekend.

Fairly sure no-one ever got penalised for raised eyebrows

[tc27]

Absolutely pathetic red card.

[Raggs]

By the letter of the law, it's a red.

Though I'd have liked to have seen CMK argue that there's a change of direction, that the arm hits first, doesn't look like a high degree of force etc to bring it down to a yellow.

[Slick]

It looks fairly soft by the standard of some head contact hits, but, as I understand it, that has to be a red in the current framework. Upright tackler instigates a head to head contact, no mitigation like the tackler or tackled player being pushed off balance by others.

Yes, difficult to blame the ref really. Watching that clip above though, it was noticeable that not one player made an appeal and nothing from the crowd which does make you wonder if it's getting a bit picky.

[Monk]

Appalling refereeing


Another thing is to not show these replays live on the stadium screen as the crowd reaction clearly influences impressionable youths like Master Maxwell-Keyes

And another thing - what happened to the recent protocol for marching back props for showing dissent at the scrum penalties? They were raising their eyebrows, shaking their heads and smiling disbelievingly with impunity this weekend.

Fairly sure no-one ever got penalised for raised eyebrows

Watch this from 35:20 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lw9U_Dqmd4

At this stage Montpellier scrum had been pumping the chiefs all day long

[Kawazaki]

It's the thought process that fails. He starts at red as the default then remains steadfast. It's 14 seconds into a game FFS, there's no empathy at all.

[sockwithaticket]

The time on the clock shouldn't be a factor in the level of sanction for an offence.

[Kawazaki]

The time on the clock shouldn't be a factor in the level of sanction for an offence.

Don't be ridiculous. It's called empathy for the game, refs still need to use it.

[inactionman]

There you have it. Get your headshots in early.

[Kawazaki]

There you have it. Get your headshots in early.

If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?

[sockwithaticket]

The time on the clock shouldn't be a factor in the level of sanction for an offence.

Don't be ridiculous. It's called empathy for the game, refs still need to use it.

Empathy for the game is deciding that a lingering hand at the ruck or player diving off their feet because the opposition stepped back had no material impact on play and refraining from blowing the whistle, not deeming it too early for a red card offence to be sanctioned as such.

[Oxbow]

It's been known a while, but now confirmed that Chris Boyd is leaving Saints at the end of the season. Got us playing some lovely rugby at times, but I can't honestly say that we've really progressed under him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59935852

[Margin__Walker]

It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.

His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework

To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.

[sockwithaticket]

It's been known a while, but now confirmed that Chris Boyd is leaving Saints at the end of the season. Got us playing some lovely rugby at times, but I can't honestly say that we've really progressed under him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59935852

He's definitely salvaged your attack and turned it into a real weapon again, but not done much to address a certain amount of softness that seems to run through the team allowing them to be bullied and overrun at times.

[inactionman]

There you have it. Get your headshots in early.

If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?

For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.

I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.

[Monk]

There you have it. Get your headshots in early.

If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?

For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.

I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.

no different to a punch - some refs will automatically go red while others might go yellow with a stern warning

well actually a punch is typically intentional whilst a headclash is usually not.

all depends how anal you are

imho the NH refs [the French excepted] are on the wrong ticket - overly officious, tending towards martinet with a good few martinets on show

[Kawazaki]

It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.

His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework

To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.

Billy Vunipola got whacked in the face, full head to head contact in the Saints game when he carried the ball up last week. It cut his lip which need treatment on the pitch. Repeated replays were shown of the clash. Ref and TMO didn't even mention it. There clearly is scope for refs to interpret the law. CMK just went for red card straight away, no empathy, no reading of the game. It was pathetic refereeing.

[Kawazaki]

There you have it. Get your headshots in early.

If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?

For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.

I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.

Fuck off with the strawman please.