Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[inactionman]

Because the clubs aren't responsible for the sport, its laws, and its governing framework.

I'm not sure that gives them a free pass, every employer has as duty of care to employees, but yes, ultimately the governing body should be accountable.

I posted this on the old board, but it's an example of an employer failing their duty of care so miserably that I'd have thought they'd be open for prosecution, let alone litigation. I saw this live and was incredulous, it's just awful. World Rugby unquestionably needed to get a grip on this, but what Toulouse did was unforgivable - within the regulation of the time or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

I appreciate we've (thankfully) moved on from this, and the question is more around how we adjust the sport to reduce risks of long term damage from cumulative brain injury, but for historic cases I'd have thought there's quite a few clubs and coaches who are wide open for court action.

I do think in individual cases like that, the club should be held responsible.

But the whole point of this is that the problem was endemic within the sport, the governing body was not interested in the research, the laws didn't prioritise player health, and the professional game as a whole is much more dangerous than it should be. That's not the fault of individual clubs.

True, but I'd think world rugby have always the defence of informed consent - the laws are well-defined and there are processes and sanctions to ensure adherence, which you can accept or not. Fritz was in no position to consent (in the sense of agree to continue after that bang), and his team directly failed him - the equivalent of a boxer's corner not throwing the towel in.

I do of course recognise there are always tests of reasonableness, which is really what this is about - what was a reasonable series of steps for world rugby to take, given the clear physical risks involved. You correctly highlight that they sat on hands around this issue, where it should really have been front and centre.

[JM2K6]

I'm not sure that gives them a free pass, every employer has as duty of care to employees, but yes, ultimately the governing body should be accountable.

I posted this on the old board, but it's an example of an employer failing their duty of care so miserably that I'd have thought they'd be open for prosecution, let alone litigation. I saw this live and was incredulous, it's just awful. World Rugby unquestionably needed to get a grip on this, but what Toulouse did was unforgivable - within the regulation of the time or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

I appreciate we've (thankfully) moved on from this, and the question is more around how we adjust the sport to reduce risks of long term damage from cumulative brain injury, but for historic cases I'd have thought there's quite a few clubs and coaches who are wide open for court action.

I do think in individual cases like that, the club should be held responsible.

But the whole point of this is that the problem was endemic within the sport, the governing body was not interested in the research, the laws didn't prioritise player health, and the professional game as a whole is much more dangerous than it should be. That's not the fault of individual clubs.

True, but I'd think world rugby have always the defence of informed consent - the laws are well-defined and there are processes and sanctions to ensure adherence, which you can accept or not. Fritz was in no position to consent (in the sense of agree to continue after that bang), and his team directly failed him - the equivalent of a boxer's corner not throwing the towel in.

I do of course recognise there are always tests of reasonableness, which is really what this is about - what was a reasonable series of steps for world rugby to take, given the clear physical risks involved. You correctly highlight that they sat on hands around this issue, where it should really have been front and centre.

It's not informed consent if players are misled about the risks and dangers. We're definitely in agreement about Fritz and I see that incident as a very different problem entirely, but yeah, this is all about what WR knew and what they did and didn't do to make the sport safer.

Rylands Law alleges that the risks of concussions and sub-concussive injuries were "known and foreseeable" and lists 24 failures on the part of World Rugby, RFU and WRU.

No-one was signing up for major memory loss, major personality changes, and early onset dementia...

[Ymx]

I guess it’s an odd one as it’s sports, but the employer surely has obligations to best manage health risks to its employees.

[GogLais]

I guess it’s an odd one as it’s sports, but the employer surely has obligations to best manage health risks to its employees.

This is usually when I ask what’s the HSE’s input to professional sport and nobody replies to me.

[Slick]

I guess it’s an odd one as it’s sports, but the employer surely has obligations to best manage health risks to its employees.

This is usually when I ask what’s the HSE’s input to professional sport and nobody replies to me.

What’s your favourite colour?

[GogLais]

I guess it’s an odd one as it’s sports, but the employer surely has obligations to best manage health risks to its employees.

This is usually when I ask what’s the HSE’s input to professional sport and nobody replies to me.

What’s your favourite colour?

Primitivo.

[Ymx]

Googled it. Health and Safety Executive? Is that the long form?

[GogLais]

Googled it. Health and Safety Executive? Is that the long form?

Yes. I’ve looked a couple of times for any reference to professional sport in their guidance, even if it were just a statement that the guidance doesn’t apply to sport. Haven’t found anything so on the face of it the Health & Safety at Work Regulations apply as much to sport as they do to building sites.

[fishfoodie]

Googled it. Health and Safety Executive? Is that the long form?

Yes. I’ve looked a couple of times for any reference to professional sport in their guidance, even if it were just a statement that the guidance doesn’t apply to sport. Haven’t found anything so on the face of it the Health & Safety at Work Regulations apply as much to sport as they do to building sites.

Which professional sport; skiing, darts, rugby, tennis, wrestling, boxing ....

There are a gazillion sports, & if you placed many of them on the same scales as a regular workplace; you'd basically end the sport.

Can you imagine any safety expert doing an assessment of Boxing; & not just deciding after 10 minutes that it is riskier than commercial deep sea diver ?

Even joke professional sports like wresting; has shit like people being smacked over the head with chairs; & a very disturbing death rate from suicide.

[GogLais]

Googled it. Health and Safety Executive? Is that the long form?

Yes. I’ve looked a couple of times for any reference to professional sport in their guidance, even if it were just a statement that the guidance doesn’t apply to sport. Haven’t found anything so on the face of it the Health & Safety at Work Regulations apply as much to sport as they do to building sites.

Which professional sport; skiing, darts, rugby, tennis, wrestling, boxing ....

There are a gazillion sports, & if you placed many of them on the same scales as a regular workplace; you'd basically end the sport.

Can you imagine any safety expert doing an assessment of Boxing; & not just deciding after 10 minutes that it is riskier than commercial deep sea diver ?

Even joke professional sports like wresting; has shit like people being smacked over the head with chairs; & a very disturbing death rate from suicide.

H&S Regs basically apply to all employment but the real world effect is far less on say working in an office than working at height. I’m not arguing for or against any HSE involvement, I’m just wondering whether it has the legal power to become involved in the dangers of rugby. That’s all.

[fishfoodie]

Yes. I’ve looked a couple of times for any reference to professional sport in their guidance, even if it were just a statement that the guidance doesn’t apply to sport. Haven’t found anything so on the face of it the Health & Safety at Work Regulations apply as much to sport as they do to building sites.

Which professional sport; skiing, darts, rugby, tennis, wrestling, boxing ....

There are a gazillion sports, & if you placed many of them on the same scales as a regular workplace; you'd basically end the sport.

Can you imagine any safety expert doing an assessment of Boxing; & not just deciding after 10 minutes that it is riskier than commercial deep sea diver ?

Even joke professional sports like wresting; has shit like people being smacked over the head with chairs; & a very disturbing death rate from suicide.

H&S Regs basically apply to all employment but the real world effect is far less on say working in an office than working at height. I’m not arguing for or against any HSE involvement, I’m just wondering whether it has the legal power to become involved in the dangers of rugby. That’s all.

Yeah; you're absolutely right; but I get the impression that Professional Sport has been rather overlooked; possibly because of the relatively small number of people involved; & the difficult of applying the same standards of care to the players, as say the admin staff in the office.

I think legal actions over CTE in the US has put the wind up a lot of sports, & they're in for a tough next decade; while they try to bridge the gap between what's happening; & the reasonable duty of care they have to deliver.

[GogLais]

Which professional sport; skiing, darts, rugby, tennis, wrestling, boxing ....

There are a gazillion sports, & if you placed many of them on the same scales as a regular workplace; you'd basically end the sport.

Can you imagine any safety expert doing an assessment of Boxing; & not just deciding after 10 minutes that it is riskier than commercial deep sea diver ?

Even joke professional sports like wresting; has shit like people being smacked over the head with chairs; & a very disturbing death rate from suicide.

H&S Regs basically apply to all employment but the real world effect is far less on say working in an office than working at height. I’m not arguing for or against any HSE involvement, I’m just wondering whether it has the legal power to become involved in the dangers of rugby. That’s all.

Yeah; you're absolutely right; but I get the impression that Professional Sport has been rather overlooked; possibly because of the relatively small number of people involved; & the difficult of applying the same standards of care to the players, as say the admin staff in the office.

I think legal actions over CTE in the US has put the wind up a lot of sports, & they're in for a tough next decade; while they try to bridge the gap between what's happening; & the reasonable duty of care they have to deliver.

Yes, I get it that it’s a hugely contentious and complex topic for the HSE to get into. One thing that I don’t think would work with them is the argument that nobody has to become a professional rugby player, well nobody has to become a steel erector, scaffolder or whatever either.

[Biffer]

Another concussion retirement, George Taylor, Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland Age group international (and in the full squad for 2021 6Ns). Aged 25.

[Margin__Walker]

Interview in the Times today (paywalled) with Kieran Low.

Talks fairly candidly about the toll rugby took on him. Goes into the impact of repeated concussions, alcohol and opioid abuse/addiction whilst playing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kier ... -hbd82nrht

[JM2K6]

Interview in the Times today (paywalled) with Kieran Low.

Talks fairly candidly about the toll rugby took on him. Goes into the impact of repeated concussions, alcohol and opioid abuse/addiction whilst playing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kier ... -hbd82nrht

Oof, that's a hard read. Doesn't hold back about the pills either. This is pretty damning too:

I get back in the team. Then in October against Harlequins, I pop a rib. Snap. Shit. So painful. Young doctor examines me. He’s new, he wants to fit into the culture. I get given a pack of 30/500mg co-codamol (100 tablets), a sleeve of tramadol, a sleeve of Valium and some zopiclone.

[Slick]

Interview in the Times today (paywalled) with Kieran Low.

Talks fairly candidly about the toll rugby took on him. Goes into the impact of repeated concussions, alcohol and opioid abuse/addiction whilst playing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kier ... -hbd82nrht

Oof, that's a hard read. Doesn't hold back about the pills either. This is pretty damning too:

I get back in the team. Then in October against Harlequins, I pop a rib. Snap. Shit. So painful. Young doctor examines me. He’s new, he wants to fit into the culture. I get given a pack of 30/500mg co-codamol (100 tablets), a sleeve of tramadol, a sleeve of Valium and some zopiclone.

Really hard read. It definitely makes me think that there are a lot of young lads in similar positions we don't hear about.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of stories like that under the surface.

Must be huge pressure to do whatever it takes to grasp an opportunity and play through pain through whatever means necessary. Hopefully the culture is a little better now.

[GogLais]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of stories like that under the surface.

Must be huge pressure to do whatever it takes to grasp an opportunity and play through pain through whatever means necessary. Hopefully the culture is a little better now.

I only comment because I hadn't seen anything like it before - one of the Wasps players seemed to be given a couple of what I assume were painkillers during a break in play against Toulouse. Perfectly legit no doubt and maybe he'd taken to the pitch with toothache or something not rugby related but it looked a bit odd.

[Slick]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of stories like that under the surface.

Must be huge pressure to do whatever it takes to grasp an opportunity and play through pain through whatever means necessary. Hopefully the culture is a little better now.

I only comment because I hadn't seen anything like it before - one of the Wasps players seemed to be given a couple of what I assume were painkillers during a break in play against Toulouse. Perfectly legit no doubt and maybe he'd taken to the pitch with toothache or something not rugby related but it looked a bit odd.

I think it would be impossible to be a pro sportsman without some kind of painkiller at some point in a season. What was frightening about that was a club doctor handing over 100's of pills and leaving it to the individual to medicate - or so it was suggested

[GogLais]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of stories like that under the surface.

Must be huge pressure to do whatever it takes to grasp an opportunity and play through pain through whatever means necessary. Hopefully the culture is a little better now.

I only comment because I hadn't seen anything like it before - one of the Wasps players seemed to be given a couple of what I assume were painkillers during a break in play against Toulouse. Perfectly legit no doubt and maybe he'd taken to the pitch with toothache or something not rugby related but it looked a bit odd.

I think it would be impossible to be a pro sportsman without some kind of painkiller at some point in a season. What was frightening about that was a club doctor handing over 100's of pills and leaving it to the individual to medicate - or so it was suggested

I’m sure you’re right. I suppose thinking it through the player may have started the match with an injury (or toothache?), I’m guessing had a painkiller before play and then needed it topped up part way through. Plenty of unknowns there.

[Slick]

I only comment because I hadn't seen anything like it before - one of the Wasps players seemed to be given a couple of what I assume were painkillers during a break in play against Toulouse. Perfectly legit no doubt and maybe he'd taken to the pitch with toothache or something not rugby related but it looked a bit odd.

I think it would be impossible to be a pro sportsman without some kind of painkiller at some point in a season. What was frightening about that was a club doctor handing over 100's of pills and leaving it to the individual to medicate - or so it was suggested

I’m sure you’re right. I suppose thinking it through the player may have started the match with an injury (or toothache?), I’m guessing had a painkiller before play and then needed it topped up part way through. Plenty of unknowns there.

Oh yeah, I agree, never seen a "top up" during a match!

[Niegs]

I think it would be impossible to be a pro sportsman without some kind of painkiller at some point in a season. What was frightening about that was a club doctor handing over 100's of pills and leaving it to the individual to medicate - or so it was suggested

I’m sure you’re right. I suppose thinking it through the player may have started the match with an injury (or toothache?), I’m guessing had a painkiller before play and then needed it topped up part way through. Plenty of unknowns there.

Oh yeah, I agree, never seen a "top up" during a match!

I saw one of the Exeter women pop something at a break in play yesterday. Had me thinking that's the first time I'd seen it in any broadcast rugby.

If a pain killer, it had me wondering would it even kick in right away? When I pop something for a headache or back issues, it takes quite a while (might just be me?). If the player didn't look laboured to that point, did they really need it? I'd wonder if you gave them a Tic Tac, would that do the trick for them mentally 'needing' pain relief right now?

But I've never played to any decent standard, so can't say anything about the pains/playing through them of playing at that level.

[JM2K6]

Huh, I've seen it for a few years now.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, I've seen it a few times over the years. But yeah Nieg, guessing it will take 20 mins or so minimum to kick in anyway.

[Margin__Walker]

Interestingly Tramadol use especially is rife in professional cycling to allow riders to push on through pain in arduous races

[GogLais]

Huh, I've seen it for a few years now.

Oh right, I watch most rugby that’s on terrestrial telly and I’d never noticed it before.

[inactionman]

The old boy worked in football for many years and had to advise many young footballers to avoid the almost routine injections of cortisone to play through joint injuries.

I'd expect that's pretty much the case for rugby.

[Happyhooker]

Just catching up so a few posts responded to here:

'Top up' painkillers during the game were common even back in my day (as an aside I know the matchday dr at wasps and I'd be amazed if everything isn't massively above bored)

Again, 25 years ago, the amount of pain killers/anti inflams you could stock up on from the medics was incredible

And yea, cortisone joint injections were rife. Even I must have had a dozen or so, but the pressure to play was immense. The roof over my head literally depended on it at one point

[GogLais]

Just catching up so a few posts responded to here:

'Top up' painkillers during the game were common even back in my day (as an aside I know the matchday dr at wasps and I'd be amazed if everything isn't massively above bored)

Again, 25 years ago, the amount of pain killers/anti inflams you could stock up on from the medics was incredible

And yea, cortisone joint injections were rife. Even I must have had a dozen or so, but the pressure to play was immense. The roof over my head literally depended on it at one point

From an admittedly small sample half say on-field medication is common and half say they’ve never seen it before. Presumably it’s usually done rather more discreetly than it was on Saturday then.

[Brazil]

I thought Cortisone injections were banned now? You'd hope that professional sports would have twigged that after the law cases brought by former professional footballers whose joints were basically bone grinding on bone.

[JM2K6]

I wonder if they've stopped giving players laughing gas at half time...

[GogLais]

I wonder if they've stopped giving players laughing gas at half time...

Never mind the players, I could do with it when I’m watching the Welsh regions.

[JM2K6]

I wonder if they've stopped giving players laughing gas at half time...

Never mind the players, I could do with it when I’m watching the Welsh regions.

For an entire season at Quins I spent most of the matches laughing in disbelief

[Ethologist]

Surprising that rugby hasn't been banned tbh. Professional boxing is already banned in some places and that's arguably less dangerous.

[Happyhooker]

Surprising that rugby hasn't been banned tbh. Professional boxing is already banned in some places and that's arguably less dangerous.

Where is boxing banned??

[GogLais]

Surprising that rugby hasn't been banned tbh. Professional boxing is already banned in some places and that's arguably less dangerous.

Where is boxing banned??

I was intrigued by this. Pro boxing banned in Cuba for decades and in Norway and Sweden for a few years, legal in all three now but banned in Iceland I think.
My grandson aged eight has taken up mini-rugby. Welsh qualified but I'm not sure that I'd want him taking up professional rugby.

[eldanielfire]

Surprising that rugby hasn't been banned tbh. Professional boxing is already banned in some places and that's arguably less dangerous.

Where is boxing banned??

I was intrigued by this. Pro boxing banned in Cuba for decades and in Norway and Sweden for a few years, legal in all three now but banned in Iceland I think.
My grandson aged eight has taken up mini-rugby. Welsh qualified but I'm not sure that I'd want him taking up professional rugby.

Ironically due to all the awareness, protocols and rule changes to the head, now might be the safest time to take up rugby for a kid.

[Slick]

Where is boxing banned??

I was intrigued by this. Pro boxing banned in Cuba for decades and in Norway and Sweden for a few years, legal in all three now but banned in Iceland I think.
My grandson aged eight has taken up mini-rugby. Welsh qualified but I'm not sure that I'd want him taking up professional rugby.

Ironically due to all the awareness, protocols and rule changes to the head, now might be the safest time to take up rugby for a kid.

I'm not sure it's going to make a huge amount of difference to be honest

[Niegs]

Related: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ttlieb-old

[Biffer]

I thought Cortisone injections were banned now? You'd hope that professional sports would have twigged that after the law cases brought by former professional footballers whose joints were basically bone grinding on bone.

I think they're limited not banned. Only a small number in your liftime or they'll fuck you up.