This 'caterpillar' nonsense

[Niegs]

England's Amy Cockayne taking a note from fellow Quin, Joe Marler, in being highly critical not just of this tactic but referee's refusal to actually enforce "Use it!"

Funny / sad how Exeter Chiefs women directly copy their men, when no others (I've seen) in this women's league do this.

[ASMO]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

[HighKingLeinster]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Wimmins rugby or counting?

[Insane_Homer]

ban it

[Niegs]

They say it should be a scrum if not used 'immediately' after use it. All they need to do is adhere to this and the tactic goes away!

I'm not saying do this at every breakdown, but it's fairly obvious when teams plan on using it, so can pull out this standard basketball practice:

[JM2K6]

England's Amy Cockayne taking a note from fellow Quin, Joe Marler, in being highly critical not just of this tactic but referee's refusal to actually enforce "Use it!"

Funny / sad how Exeter Chiefs women directly copy their men, when no others (I've seen) in this women's league do this.

Love this

[SaintK]

England's Amy Cockayne taking a note from fellow Quin, Joe Marler, in being highly critical not just of this tactic but referee's refusal to actually enforce "Use it!"

Funny / sad how Exeter Chiefs women directly copy their men, when no others (I've seen) in this women's league do this.

Love this

Yes indeed
Thouhg why wasn't tthe ref doing the counting?
It's an abomination

[Uncle fester]

They say it should be a scrum if not used 'immediately' after use it. All they need to do is adhere to this and the tactic goes away!

I'm not saying do this at every breakdown, but it's fairly obvious when teams plan on using it, so can pull out this standard basketball practice:

You have 5 seconds.
I actually call this quite a bit in my matches but thankfully you rarely see deliberate caterpillar rucks in junior rugby.

[Torquemada 1420]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

[Niegs]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Setting up individuals to block by standing in no man's land is another complete joke. I'm not sure if it's still tolerated in the pro ranks, but saw the Canadian women's scrum half marshalling the blockers against Wales in the autumn like it's completely allowed.

[Torquemada 1420]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Setting up individuals to block by standing in no man's land is another complete joke. I'm not sure if it's still tolerated in the pro ranks, but saw the Canadian women's scrum half marshalling the blockers against Wales in the autumn like it's completely allowed.

Yup. If you want a game which relies on that sh*t, watch gridiron!

[Phredd]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Don't they call that a rolling maul

[Mahoney]

Or a ruck or a scrum.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's hardly just the caterpillar, screen blockers on attack, blockers on kicks for attack and defence. Much of the game is now about working out how to resource the use of blockers

[sockwithaticket]

It's hardly just the caterpillar, screen blockers on attack, blockers on kicks for attack and defence. Much of the game is now about working out how to resource the use of blockers

I think the caterpillar attracts so much focus because it actively slows the game down, the other blockers you've listed are relevant while the ball is in play and so aren't wasting time in addition to denying access to or contest for the ball.

[Torquemada 1420]

It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Don't they call that a rolling maul

Yes. It's an abomination which is practically undefeatable legally.

[Monk]

i cannot think of a law change that obviates this tactic

one will have to legislate on how players join and bind onto a ruck

[JM2K6]

I can. The scrum half can roll the ball once, then it's "out". Stop players being able to move the ball all the way to the back of the caterpillar.

[Monk]

I can. The scrum half can roll the ball once, then it's "out". Stop players being able to move the ball all the way to the back of the caterpillar.

they can move it back with their feet

[Torquemada 1420]

I can. The scrum half can roll the ball once, then it's "out". Stop players being able to move the ball all the way to the back of the caterpillar.

they can move it back with their feet

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

[Monk]

I can. The scrum half can roll the ball once, then it's "out". Stop players being able to move the ball all the way to the back of the caterpillar.

they can move it back with their feet

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

[JM2K6]

they can move it back with their feet

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

[Monk]

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

no - the players in a ruck are a unit - they cab play it back

[Uncle fester]

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

There's no need to change the law. Refs just need to enforce the law that is already there.

"When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum."

Ball is available. It's up to the 9 to use it within 5 seconds. No need to be starting timers from when they touch it.

[JM2K6]

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

no - the players in a ruck are a unit - they cab play it back

I think we are talking past each other.

I'm saying change the law so that the ball can be moved once and once only. Stop players from fishing it out of the ruck and then rolling it back.

[Niegs]

I like the general guideline I was taught in reffing courses ... "Out on the pull."

If on the touch and a scrum half has to reach in amongst body parts to get the ball, they'd have defenders swarming as soon as they touched it. Refs could apply that to this rolling bollocks, too. Pull out with hands so there's daylight underneath OR roll it a ball width back = "Ball's out!"

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's hardly just the caterpillar, screen blockers on attack, blockers on kicks for attack and defence. Much of the game is now about working out how to resource the use of blockers

I think the caterpillar attracts so much focus because it actively slows the game down, the other blockers you've listed are relevant while the ball is in play and so aren't wasting time in addition to denying access to or contest for the ball.

if the blockers aren't denying a contest for the ball then they're simply not doing their job, so work to be done for them

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

interesting. perhaps just playing faster will suit attack, but if the 9s can be put under pressure the hope to get the ball back into play will advance the defensive cause

[ASMO]

I like the general guideline I was taught in reffing courses ... "Out on the pull."

If on the touch and a scrum half has to reach in amongst body parts to get the ball, they'd have defenders swarming as soon as they touched it. Refs could apply that to this rolling bollocks, too. Pull out with hands so there's daylight underneath OR roll it a ball width back = "Ball's out!"

Or make so once the ruck is formed, no more players can join it. Ref calls ruck, that it, SH has 5 secs to use it

[Mahoney]

My favourite types of rucks are where people join after it has formed and actually contest possession on their feet. I’d hate to see that outlawed, but it would be very unfair to be outnumbered 3:1 and because the ruck is formed no one can reinforce you.

[eldanielfire]

They say it should be a scrum if not used 'immediately' after use it. All they need to do is adhere to this and the tactic goes away!

I'm not saying do this at every breakdown, but it's fairly obvious when teams plan on using it, so can pull out this standard basketball practice:

Or why not just blow penalities or say players joining the ruck in uncompetitive positions after placement of the ball can not be counted in the ruck. Or blow if "use it" is not followed straight away.

[eldanielfire]

I like the general guideline I was taught in reffing courses ... "Out on the pull."

If on the touch and a scrum half has to reach in amongst body parts to get the ball, they'd have defenders swarming as soon as they touched it. Refs could apply that to this rolling bollocks, too. Pull out with hands so there's daylight underneath OR roll it a ball width back = "Ball's out!"

Or make so once the ruck is formed, no more players can join it. Ref calls ruck, that it, SH has 5 secs to use it

The issue is some players may spot a late opportunity to counter ruck, and that's a good thing. I'd say if ruck is called players can not enter unless it's to compete for the ball. or even if the ref calls use it, scrum halfs must go to pick up the ball straight away or the ref blows.

World rugby is amazingly obtuse sometimes, they ticker with so many rules but ignore some basic flaws of the game or the fact refs just aren't doing their job.

[eldanielfire]

Change the law: as soon as the SH touched it with either hand or feet, he has to play it.

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

Perhaps look that players only play the ball with their feet if the ball is unavailable to be picked up.

[Insane_Homer]

1. force a complete and proper bind. the second the arm/shoulder comes away call the ball 'out'.

and

2. If the ruck is stagnant any more players joining to further secure the ball must bind on an opposition player. Players joining a ruck to secure the ball must bind to an opposition player, not a teammate unless they're rucking over & beyond the ball with forward momentum.

[Uncle fester]

My favourite types of rucks are where people join after it has formed and actually contest possession on their feet. I’d hate to see that outlawed, but it would be very unfair to be outnumbered 3:1 and because the ruck is formed no one can reinforce you.

Counter-ruck you mean?
If a team is good at this, they can really exploit the "use it" law.

Have seen circumstances where one team is deliberately slowing things down. I call "use it" and then the defence counter-rucks.
At this point, the nicely presented ball ready to whip out gets messed up and the 9 either panics and sends out a shit pass or can't get the ball out in time so turnover.

Attacking team learn their lesson and don't dilly-dally or they commit more men to the ruck.

[Uncle fester]

I like the general guideline I was taught in reffing courses ... "Out on the pull."

If on the touch and a scrum half has to reach in amongst body parts to get the ball, they'd have defenders swarming as soon as they touched it. Refs could apply that to this rolling bollocks, too. Pull out with hands so there's daylight underneath OR roll it a ball width back = "Ball's out!"

Or make so once the ruck is formed, no more players can join it. Ref calls ruck, that it, SH has 5 secs to use it

Couple of problems with that, you negate the contest and reward teams that under resource rucks.
Secondly, at lower levels, the ball will not be ready within 5 seconds.

The count needs to be from when the ball is available to play.
And it needs to be enforced. I don't understand why a lot of refs are so reticent about doing this.

[Mahoney]

1. Call "use it" the moment the ruck has become stagnant
2. Actually blow if they take more than 5 seconds after calling use it
3. Require proper binding, shoulder to hand, from anyone joining
3. Call "ruck over" if the scrum half moves the ball (with his hands or his feet)

You can still form a caterpillar, but you don't have long and you've got to do it properly, including the players in the ruck doing the heeling the ball back.

[Lobby]

1. Call "use it" the moment the ruck has become stagnant
2. Actually blow if they take more than 5 seconds after calling use it
3. Require proper binding, shoulder to hand, from anyone joining
3. Call "ruck over" if the scrum half moves the ball (with his hands or his feet)

You can still form a caterpillar, but you don't have long and you've got to do it properly, including the players in the ruck doing the heeling the ball back.

Rather than 'stagnant', the ref should call use it as soon as the ball has been presented at the base of the ruck. Its quite common for the ball to be lying at the base of the ruck and clearly available, only for the SH to call in five other players to form a caterpillar. If the ref called use it when the ball was available, and enforced the 5 second limit, there wouldn't be time for the caterpillar to be set up.

[JM2K6]

Make it 3 seconds, not 5.

[Mahoney]

Rather than 'stagnant', the ref should call use it as soon as the ball has been presented at the base of the ruck. Its quite common for the ball to be lying at the base of the ruck and clearly available, only for the SH to call in five other players to form a caterpillar. If the ref called use it when the ball was available, and enforced the 5 second limit, there wouldn't be time for the caterpillar to be set up.

I suspect we mean the same thing. By "stagnant" I mean that a) the ball has been presented at the base of the ruck and b) the ruck is not currently moving. I don't think the ref should call "use it" if the opposition are counter-rucking sufficiently to be making it hard to get the ball out, even if the ball has been presented.

(If the ref calls "use it" and the opposition promptly start counter-rucking, that's fine, of course.)