18th century Scots poet in political correctness scandal

[Blackmac]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... t-26025665

Just before any of you head out to your Burns Supper it would appear that you might have to reconsider your attendance.

It would appear that Robert Burns, 18th century Ayrshire farmer and poet, brought up in an age where it was still legal to beat your wife for not making your dinner and adulterous females were dunked in rivers, didn't quite live up to the politically correct standards of the 21st century chattering classes.

[ASMO]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... t-26025665

Just before any of you head out to your Burns Supper it would appear that you might have to reconsider your attendance.

It would appear that Robert Burns, 18th century Ayrshire farmer and poet, brought up in an age where it was still legal to beat your wife for not making your dinner and adulterous females were dunked in rivers, didn't quite live up to the politically correct standards of the 21st century chattering classes.

You mean its not legal now? fuuuuuck

[weegie01]

I can remember my father saying that he felt a failure as a man and a husband as my mother worked in the family business. He was born in the 1920s and as far as he was concerned, the husband was the breadwinner and the wife should stay at home and look after the family and home.

Attitudes that were normal and mainstream when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s would be completely unacceptable now, let alone those centuries past.

[Plim]

If they want to look south there's plenty protesting to get stuck into with old-timey English poets: Swinburne, Byron, Lawrence, Wilmot etc. And one or two more modern ones as well like Ted Hughes. Poets are often weird, hateful, drunk or cruel, or some combination.

But then, the 'enlightened' will drag anyone from his or her grave for a good postumhous cancelling.

[Blackmac]

If they want to look south there's plenty protesting to get stuck into with old-timey English poets: Swinburne, Byron, Lawrence, Wilmot etc. And one or two more modern ones as well like Ted Hughes. Poets are often weird, hateful, drunk or cruel, or some combination.

But then, the 'enlightened' will drag anyone from his or her grave for a good postumhous cancelling.

What really pisses you off is that their nonsense was no doubt paid for out of public funds.

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... t-26025665

Just before any of you head out to your Burns Supper it would appear that you might have to reconsider your attendance.

It would appear that Robert Burns, 18th century Ayrshire farmer and poet, brought up in an age where it was still legal to beat your wife for not making your dinner and adulterous females were dunked in rivers, didn't quite live up to the politically correct standards of the 21st century chattering classes.

Has it changed in the Borders then?

[Paddington Bear]

Was grimly inevitable really. I find the lack of self-awareness of the consequences of judging historical figures by today's attitudes really bizarre - what do they think will happen to them in 50/100/200 years?

[Plim]

If they want to look south there's plenty protesting to get stuck into with old-timey English poets: Swinburne, Byron, Lawrence, Wilmot etc. And one or two more modern ones as well like Ted Hughes. Poets are often weird, hateful, drunk or cruel, or some combination.

But then, the 'enlightened' will drag anyone from his or her grave for a good postumhous cancelling.

What really pisses you off is that their nonsense was no doubt paid for out of public funds.

Hadn’t thought of that…but it’s a fine reason to be even more outraged.

[Torquemada 1420]

Good job they don't live in Kenya
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p ... n-epidemic

[Biffer]

Everyone in Scotland knows Rabbie was a durty shagger. It's not news to any of us.

[FalseBayFC]

My Glaswegian Grandpa loved Burns and arranged Burns Dinners every year in South Africa. My dad still does it in his retirement village every year too . Good luck cancelling Burns I say!

[GogLais]

Dafydd ap Gwilym's in for the chop then.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

If they want to look south there's plenty protesting to get stuck into with old-timey English poets: Swinburne, Byron, Lawrence, Wilmot etc. And one or two more modern ones as well like Ted Hughes. Poets are often weird, hateful, drunk or cruel, or some combination.

But then, the 'enlightened' will drag anyone from his or her grave for a good postumhous cancelling.

Not quite modern even if a modernist, but TS Eliot by any reasonable measure had some very trenchant views which would prove worrying to many. Not that any such concerns stopped people like Rebel Wilson, James Corden, Judi Dench, Idris Elba, Jennifer Hudson and others appearing in a film to promote his work, and what a terrible film that was, albeit the source material is pretty bloody good

[JM2K6]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

[Uncle fester]

Artists are often cúnts, even for the social norms of the time. Look at Picasso. Complete díckhéad.

[Slick]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

Someone was a misogynist in an era when everyone was a misogynist.

That’ll be £120 grand please

[JM2K6]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

Someone was a misogynist in an era when everyone was a misogynist.

That’ll be £120 grand please

Write it as a poem

[Dogbert]

Posting links to the Scottish Daily Express........

That rag is about as truthful , decent and honest as a Tory Prime Minister

[Biffer]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

Someone was a misogynist in an era when everyone was a misogynist.

That’ll be £120 grand please

Write it as a poem

Is a haiku ok?

A misogynist
When they all were sexist but
His words still bring joy

[Slick]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

Someone was a misogynist in an era when everyone was a misogynist.

That’ll be £120 grand please

Write it as a poem

There was a Scots poet long deid
Who was a misogynist some wimmin decreed
He came from a time
When beating women was fine
But that will still be £120k of your finest airgead

[JM2K6]

Good efforts, both. Where's the 120k coming from?

[Biffer]

Slick’s minted,I’ll invoice him.

[Blackmac]

Posting links to the Scottish Daily Express........

That rag is about as truthful , decent and honest as a Tory Prime Minister

There is nothing untruthful about the article and most others are behind a paywall. Needs must.

[Blackmac]

If they want to look south there's plenty protesting to get stuck into with old-timey English poets: Swinburne, Byron, Lawrence, Wilmot etc. And one or two more modern ones as well like Ted Hughes. Poets are often weird, hateful, drunk or cruel, or some combination.

But then, the 'enlightened' will drag anyone from his or her grave for a good postumhous cancelling.

What really pisses you off is that their nonsense was no doubt paid for out of public funds.

Hadn’t thought of that…but it’s a fine reason to be even more outraged.

I don't think it's something to be outraged about. It's just the sheer ridiculousness of a public funded body actually commissioning the report that I find incredible.

[Slick]

Slick’s minted,I’ll invoice him.

Cerrrist, if I’m not the poorest poster on here someone really does need a whip round

[JM2K6]

What really pisses you off is that their nonsense was no doubt paid for out of public funds.

Hadn’t thought of that…but it’s a fine reason to be even more outraged.

I don't think it's something to be outraged about. It's just the sheer ridiculousness of a public funded body actually commissioning the report that I find incredible.

They commissioned poems, no?

[Tichtheid]

Hadn’t thought of that…but it’s a fine reason to be even more outraged.

I don't think it's something to be outraged about. It's just the sheer ridiculousness of a public funded body actually commissioning the report that I find incredible.

They commissioned poems, no?

Yes, four poets were commissioned to write poetry - what a flagrant waste of money!


This took me less than three minutes to look up - the poetry was commissioned by The Scottish Poetry Library in Edinburgh.
The Scottish Poetry Library is funded by donation and by Creative Scotland.
Creative Scotland have a budget grant from the Scottish Government of around £63M, this is topped up by over £40M from lottery funding.
Creative Scotland fund hundreds of projects across the country, the Scottish Poetry Library is one of scores of projects which falls into a category of regular funding as opposed to one-offs, from which I gather the funding runs on a basis of three years before being up for renewal.

According to the Scot Gov website, creative industries are worth over £5Bn to the Scottish economy.

[Plim]

I don't think it's something to be outraged about. It's just the sheer ridiculousness of a public funded body actually commissioning the report that I find incredible.

They commissioned poems, no?

Yes, four poets were commissioned to write poetry - what a flagrant waste of money!


This took me less than three minutes to look up - the poetry was commissioned by The Scottish Poetry Library in Edinburgh.
The Scottish Poetry Library is funded by donation and by Creative Scotland.
Creative Scotland have a budget grant from the Scottish Government of around £63M, this is topped up by over £40M from lottery funding.
Creative Scotland fund hundreds of projects across the country, the Scottish Poetry Library is one of scores of projects which falls into a category of regular funding as opposed to one-offs, from which I gather the funding runs on a basis of three years before being up for renewal.

According to the Scot Gov website, creative industries are worth over £5Bn to the Scottish economy.

Is this a joke? The economic value of rubbishing Burns and his works?

As it happens I’m all in favour of patronage for the arts (and - guess what - I’m not really outraged by this at all). But I doubt that poetry contributes anything to the Scottish economy, or any other country’s. The creative industries that make money and employ people are mostly telly, advertising, movies and video games, with a bit of book publishing thrown in.

[Tichtheid]

They commissioned poems, no?

Yes, four poets were commissioned to write poetry - what a flagrant waste of money!


This took me less than three minutes to look up - the poetry was commissioned by The Scottish Poetry Library in Edinburgh.
The Scottish Poetry Library is funded by donation and by Creative Scotland.
Creative Scotland have a budget grant from the Scottish Government of around £63M, this is topped up by over £40M from lottery funding.
Creative Scotland fund hundreds of projects across the country, the Scottish Poetry Library is one of scores of projects which falls into a category of regular funding as opposed to one-offs, from which I gather the funding runs on a basis of three years before being up for renewal.

According to the Scot Gov website, creative industries are worth over £5Bn to the Scottish economy.

Is this a joke? The economic value of rubbishing Burns and his works?

As it happens I’m all in favour of patronage for the arts (and - guess what - I’m not really outraged by this at all). But I doubt that poetry contributes anything to the Scottish economy, or any other country’s. The creative industries that make money and employ people are mostly telly, advertising, movies and video games, with a bit of book publishing thrown in.

Not a joke, it was a reaction to the misinformed opinion that this was a commissioned report paid for out of "tax payers' hard-earned cash", which always seems to be said in a way that sounds like the back of hand is being held to a forehead, eyes shut, if that is not too poetic an image.

If anyone had bothered to go to the source rather than look through a Daily Express filter, they would have read this
" For Burns Night, we commissioned Janette Ayachi, Victoria McNulty, Susi Briggs and Morag Anderson to write new poems reflecting on Robert Burns. We did not provide them with a specific brief for the commissions, although initial discussions touched on why Scotland continues to celebrate the bard, and how the writers felt about his legacy."
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.u ... ng-thorns/


I don't feel that they rubbished Burns and his works, I'm a fan and have been singing the songs for forty years, but I think it's always interesting to hear fresh takes on the work. I don't agree with the one assertion that Burns should be replaced with another poet in an annual celebration, I think that spectacularly misses the point. I'm free to disagree with them as they are with me.


However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).
Sales of poetry books would make any aspirant poet take up painting and decorating immediately, but literary festivals generate income, the mother of all arts festivals, Edinburgh, generates over a billion quid in direct and secondary spending (no idea what secondary spending is, I just googled Edinburgh festival economic impact).

I feel that arts don't exist in isolation of each other, a line in a poem can inspire a song, which can inspire whatever ... and on down the line, a friend of mine who was a graduate of St Martins went to study at MIT for a year, the engineers at MIT wanted "creatives" to work alongside their engineering post grads to see if something could spark between them.

I've started to ramble so I'll leave it for now

[troglodiet]

My Glaswegian Grandpa loved Burns and arranged Burns Dinners every year in South Africa. My dad still does it in his retirement village every year too . Good luck cancelling Burns I say!

Burns Night is widely celebrated by the Freemasons who operates under the various District Grand Lodges of Scotland (and by definition the Grand Lodge of Scotland).

It's not only for Masons, anybody can attend, and very enjoyable. He should have a look at the Scottish Lodges in his area if he just wants to attend a Burns night without the trouble of organising one. Plus all proceeds go to charity. It's usually very cheap too, under R 100 per person.

My wife and I used to go every year. Obviously C19 had some other plans, but I'm not sure whether they'll do it again this year.

Usually a couple of Scottish Lodges in the same area will join forces to have super event, instead of a lot of small ones.

[Slick]

I'm surprised those figures are as low as that to be honest regarding Burns night, it is celebrated in every corner of the world and is as good a showcase for Scotland as it gets.

[Tichtheid]

I'm surprised those figures are as low as that to be honest regarding Burns night, it is celebrated in every corner of the world and is as good a showcase for Scotland as it gets.

mea culpa, I read it wrong, I think he headline figure of £200M is spending that tourists bring in to Scotland, some £120M of which goes in to Ayrshire alone, the newspaper article isn't particularly clear https://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/new ... ed-189865/

The spending world wide is several times that on whisky alone

[I like neeps]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

The article has someone saying he was the Harvey Weinstein of his time. Which is a quite extraordinary thing to say with zero evidence though.

[Biffer]

Yes, four poets were commissioned to write poetry - what a flagrant waste of money!


This took me less than three minutes to look up - the poetry was commissioned by The Scottish Poetry Library in Edinburgh.
The Scottish Poetry Library is funded by donation and by Creative Scotland.
Creative Scotland have a budget grant from the Scottish Government of around £63M, this is topped up by over £40M from lottery funding.
Creative Scotland fund hundreds of projects across the country, the Scottish Poetry Library is one of scores of projects which falls into a category of regular funding as opposed to one-offs, from which I gather the funding runs on a basis of three years before being up for renewal.

According to the Scot Gov website, creative industries are worth over £5Bn to the Scottish economy.

Is this a joke? The economic value of rubbishing Burns and his works?

As it happens I’m all in favour of patronage for the arts (and - guess what - I’m not really outraged by this at all). But I doubt that poetry contributes anything to the Scottish economy, or any other country’s. The creative industries that make money and employ people are mostly telly, advertising, movies and video games, with a bit of book publishing thrown in.

Not a joke, it was a reaction to the misinformed opinion that this was a commissioned report paid for out of "tax payers' hard-earned cash", which always seems to be said in a way that sounds like the back of hand is being held to a forehead, eyes shut, if that is not too poetic an image.

If anyone had bothered to go to the source rather than look through a Daily Express filter, they would have read this
" For Burns Night, we commissioned Janette Ayachi, Victoria McNulty, Susi Briggs and Morag Anderson to write new poems reflecting on Robert Burns. We did not provide them with a specific brief for the commissions, although initial discussions touched on why Scotland continues to celebrate the bard, and how the writers felt about his legacy."
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.u ... ng-thorns/


I don't feel that they rubbished Burns and his works, I'm a fan and have been singing the songs for forty years, but I think it's always interesting to hear fresh takes on the work. I don't agree with the one assertion that Burns should be replaced with another poet in an annual celebration, I think that spectacularly misses the point. I'm free to disagree with them as they are with me.


However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).
Sales of poetry books would make any aspirant poet take up painting and decorating immediately, but literary festivals generate income, the mother of all arts festivals, Edinburgh, generates over a billion quid in direct and secondary spending (no idea what secondary spending is, I just googled Edinburgh festival economic impact).

I feel that arts don't exist in isolation of each other, a line in a poem can inspire a song, which can inspire whatever ... and on down the line, a friend of mine who was a graduate of St Martins went to study at MIT for a year, the engineers at MIT wanted "creatives" to work alongside their engineering post grads to see if something could spark between them.

I've started to ramble so I'll leave it for now

That last paragraph is correct. Different arts cross fertilise and inspire each other.

And you don’t have songs without poetry. What is rap if not poetry?

[inactionman]

Should we always be judging or otherwise evaluating art and academia by immediate economic value?

Anyway, had our Burns supper but haven't been bothered to toast the haggis - probably as we drink the whisky after the food, and also as the missus has a veggie equivalent that needs to be microwaved. Quite hard to make much ceremony over that. Does anyone actually do the full-fat ceremony? I'm going to assume most would omit the piper.

Also, we made Cranachan both with and sans whisky - I'm all for teaching kids tradition but that's going too far - and I think I prefer the non-whisky version.

[Tichtheid]

Not sure I see the problem in acknowledging the failings of historical figures rather than mythologising them. It's good to get a complete picture

The article has someone saying he was the Harvey Weinstein of his time. Which is a quite extraordinary thing to say with zero evidence though.

That was Liz Lochead, not one of the poets who received the commission.

Lochead has been forced to retire from giving talks on Burns due to the reaction to her comments.

[tc27]

Don't think the popularity of whisky or Burn's are dependent on government grants - always suspicious of claims like these to justify spending. Surely the justification for government patronage is to support parts of Scottish culture that fall outside these massively successful and commercially self sustaining areas (and there are lots).

[Blackmac]

Hadn’t thought of that…but it’s a fine reason to be even more outraged.

I don't think it's something to be outraged about. It's just the sheer ridiculousness of a public funded body actually commissioning the report that I find incredible.

They commissioned poems, no?

Yeah, hands up to that. I posted the Express link as it was the only available one I could find that wasn't behind a paywall. I didn't read it properly and if I had I would have seen the difference to the initial article I read which was pretty much inaccurate and stated that the poets had been commissioned to evaluate his contribution.

[Tichtheid]

Should we always be judging or otherwise evaluating art and academia by immediate economic value?

I don't think so, but we do hear complaints about tax payers money being spent on art, so I think it's probably justifiable to point out the huge economic benefit art brings, it's a quantifiable measure, and it's been known for a long time how much the creative industries bring in, yet we still hear the complaints.

[troglodiet]

What is rap if not poetry?

Rap = Crap.

Definitely not poetry.




Real poetry (if you want to go the musical route):

“Temptation’s page flies out the door / You follow, find yourself at war / Watch waterfalls of pity roar / You feel to moan but unlike before / You discover that you’d just be one more person crying.”