6N 2022

[Torquemada 1420]

Meantime Ire are annihilating Wal. This is a really bad portent for Welsh rugby who normally look good at grade level.

Since when? They've been shit as long as I can remember.

Kerrist, they beat NZ at the U20 RWC last time out. Are you 1 or just in early stage Alzheimers?

[sockwithaticket]

Meantime Ire are annihilating Wal. This is a really bad portent for Welsh rugby who normally look good at grade level.

Since when? They've been shit as long as I can remember.

Kerrist, they beat NZ at the U20 RWC last time out.

Probably skipped that, I mostly catch the U20s 6Ns where they generally get pasted by England and Ireland.

[fishfoodie]

53 - 5 FT

[TheFrog]

Ahhh. Normal Fre service resumed.

It's incredible. We, French, seem to have a unique ability to switch off.

[Zig]

Great to have it back with packed stadiums and real atmosphere.

The style of rugby being played is just amazing and a joy to watch.

[TheFrog]

Well, a good weekend of 6 Nations, courtesy of that Scottish win which made my day

The French, as I expected, were not yet match fit, and it showed. Hopefully, with that game under their belt and a week of training now focused on getting ready for Ireland rather than getting fit, they'll be in better shape next week. They will need to work on their discipline, on the offside at the breakdown and on the silly mistakes when having possessions in the opposition 22s. The way Marchand gave away a penalty when it should have been a try, the way we gave away a penalty at a maul after breaking away from the initial maul, and one of our forwards in front of the ball carrier etc... This will cost us dearly against Ireland.

Ireland looked the best team of the tournament, though they were also rusty. First game I guess, but they still managed to get 5pts out of it and a very good point difference to get started. They must be relishing their trip to Paris. Their first 20min against Wales were just briliant, if they can play 60min like this, there are not many teams that will be able to resist.

Scotland have what it takes to beat any team, but I doubt they'll challenge for the title. Their win against England owed as much to England's brain farts at a moment where England should have turned on the screw and their own ability to make the most of the opportunities available to them. I think Scotland will be the king makers of the tournament.

Much to worry about for England, the way the team crumbled mentally was reminiscent of the worst French performances. Eddie Jones will be very concerned that his boys don't have the mental fortitude to get victories in tight games. I fear England may be heading to a 4th of 5th ranking this year.

Wales... They looked like Italy against France. I.e. great defensive commitment, but not much else to show. Given, they were facing a very good Ireland. But I can't see that Wales beat Scotland, Ireland or France. Can they scrap a win past England? The Italy-Wales game could be a wooden spoon decider this year.

[Slick]

Not bad TheFrog, but i think you are being a little dismissive of Scotland there.

That England team had the mental fortitude to somehow beat SA despite being 2nd best everywhere a couple of months back. I’d also like to think that the Scottish defence had a fair bit to do with their brain farts

[TheFrog]

Not bad TheFrog, but i think you are being a little dismissive of Scotland there.

That England team had the mental fortitude to somehow beat SA despite being 2nd best everywhere a couple of months back. I’d also like to think that the Scottish defence had a fair bit to do with their brain farts

It's a fair point and I didn't see enough of the game to really get the complete picture.

I don't know why, but I absolutely agree that Scotland can beat any of the other 6N teams on their day, but I am not convinced they can win 4 games or a Grand Slam.

I know they have beaten France twice in a row in the 6N, so I should be more respectful in my comments. And I do actually have a lot of respect for that team, and I love their brand of rugby. But somehow I doubt them...

[Slick]

Not bad TheFrog, but i think you are being a little dismissive of Scotland there.

That England team had the mental fortitude to somehow beat SA despite being 2nd best everywhere a couple of months back. I’d also like to think that the Scottish defence had a fair bit to do with their brain farts

It's a fair point and I didn't see enough of the game to really get the complete picture.

I don't know why, but I absolutely agree that Scotland can beat any of the other 6N teams on their day, but I am not convinced they can win 4 games or a Grand Slam.

I know they have beaten France twice in a row in the 6N, so I should be more respectful in my comments. And I do actually have a lot of respect for that team, and I love their brand of rugby. But somehow I doubt them...

Oh, I agree with you! I think we have a decent chance against France but can’t see us beating Ireland. Let alone beating Wales i Cardiff which we never do. I just think we won yesterday more by what we did do than by what England didn’t

[JM2K6]

England certainly did panic towards the end there, but the real killer was failing to get any kind of daylight while the pack was heavily on top and with huge amounts of possession and territory.

[Slick]

Extraordinary article in the Times today attempted to take O’Keefe apart regarding the scrum sequence at the end. Some ref saying how terrible it all was with quotes from England players basically saying it was fine.

[TheFrog]

As France prepare for Ireland, they have 3 key areas they need to focus on if they don't want to be ripped apart by the 6N favorite.

First the offside at the ruck. 5 penalties against Italy in a game we dominated. Can't imagine what this would mean against Ireland and their ability to retain possession for long sequences of the game.

Second, the battle on the ground. Italy made France suffer, slowed down most attacks, giving plenty of time for the defense to reorganize even after a break. Again, Ireland are master of the breakdown, so France have a massive task ahead.

Finally, the battle of the gain line, which also relies on winning the rucks swiftly. The French were pedestrian most of the time, and the Italian crush them in the tackles, pushing them back far too often. The Italians also made some good carry, with one pass dynamic crash balls, gaining ground. This is another area where Ireland with its pack of butchers can destroy France.

There is a lot of work to be done for pack.

Dupont and Ntamack played on the back foot for most of the game.

[TheFrog]

Extraordinary article in the Times today attempted to take O’Keefe apart regarding the scrum sequence at the end. Some ref saying how terrible it all was with quotes from England players basically saying it was fine.

To be fair, O'Keefe is the typical SH ret who hates dealing with scrums.

That being said, England didn't want a draw and would have either asked for another scrum or kicked to the corner. But I am not sure they had the ability to convert that opportunity into a try.

[Slick]

Extraordinary article in the Times today attempted to take O’Keefe apart regarding the scrum sequence at the end. Some ref saying how terrible it all was with quotes from England players basically saying it was fine.

To be fair, O'Keefe is the typical SH ret who hates dealing with scrums.

That being said, England didn't want a draw and would have either asked for another scrum or kicked to the corner. But I am not sure they had the ability to convert that opportunity into a try.

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to add much but there hasn't really been much moaning from players or supporters so it can only be clickbait

[TheFrog]

Extraordinary article in the Times today attempted to take O’Keefe apart regarding the scrum sequence at the end. Some ref saying how terrible it all was with quotes from England players basically saying it was fine.

To be fair, O'Keefe is the typical SH ret who hates dealing with scrums.

That being said, England didn't want a draw and would have either asked for another scrum or kicked to the corner. But I am not sure they had the ability to convert that opportunity into a try.

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to add much but there hasn't really been much moaning from players or supporters so it can only be clickbait

I think it is because most English supporters acknowledge the team deserved to lose and that the game was lost elsewhere. Again, I am not sure England had what it took to convert a scrum penalty into a win.

[Paddington Bear]

To be fair, O'Keefe is the typical SH ret who hates dealing with scrums.

That being said, England didn't want a draw and would have either asked for another scrum or kicked to the corner. But I am not sure they had the ability to convert that opportunity into a try.

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to add much but there hasn't really been much moaning from players or supporters so it can only be clickbait

I think it is because most English supporters acknowledge the team deserved to lose and that the game was lost elsewhere. Again, I am not sure England had what it took to convert a scrum penalty into a win.

We'd cocked up the previous lineout and been held up from mauls before. I felt the game was lost before this. There was a brief moment when Scotland kicked poorly downfield and Steward picked it up in space that I had a flashback of Daly in the corner in Cardiff but other than that once we'd blown the lead I didn't hold out too much hope.

[TheFrog]

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to add much but there hasn't really been much moaning from players or supporters so it can only be clickbait

I think it is because most English supporters acknowledge the team deserved to lose and that the game was lost elsewhere. Again, I am not sure England had what it took to convert a scrum penalty into a win.

We'd cocked up the previous lineout and been held up from mauls before. I felt the game was lost before this. There was a brief moment when Scotland kicked poorly downfield and Steward picked it up in space that I had a flashback of Daly in the corner in Cardiff but other than that once we'd blown the lead I didn't hold out too much hope.

There was a big difference between the English team on the pitch this weekend, who seemed to have lost its sense of purpose and direction, and the one that clinched the win at death against France in the Autumn Cup in 2020.

The momentum was all Scottish.

[Marylandolorian]

We'd cocked up the previous lineout and been held up from mauls before. I felt the game was lost before this. There was a brief moment when Scotland kicked poorly downfield and Steward picked it up in space that I had a flashback of Daly in the corner in Cardiff but other than that once we'd blown the lead I didn't hold out too much hope.

There was a big difference between the English team on the pitch this weekend, who seemed to have lost its sense of purpose and direction, and the one that clinched the win at death against France in the Autumn Cup in 2020.
The momentum was all Scottish.

Come on, England wasn’t exactly playing the french “ A team “ either , most had Zero caps, the rest were not even starters in the 23 regulars EDF and the French were ahead at the 79’ until Dulin had a brain fart.

Spoiler

Show

France Team Line-up
Forwards
1 Hassan Kolingar
2 Pierre Bourgarit
3 Dorian Aldegheri
4 Baptiste Pesenti
5 Kilian Geraci
6 Cameron Woki
7 Anthony Jelonch
8 Selevasio Tofofua
Backs
9 Baptiste Couilloud (Captain)
10 Matthieu Jalibert
11 Gabin Villiere
12 Jonathan Danty
13 Yoram Moefana
14 Alivereti Raka
15 Brice Dulin
Replacements
16 Peato Mauvaka
17 Rodrigue Neti
18 Uini Atonio
19 Guillaume Ducat
20 Sekou Macalou
21 Sebastien Bezy
22 Louis Carbonel
23 Pierre-Louis Barassi

[Paddington Bear]

We'd cocked up the previous lineout and been held up from mauls before. I felt the game was lost before this. There was a brief moment when Scotland kicked poorly downfield and Steward picked it up in space that I had a flashback of Daly in the corner in Cardiff but other than that once we'd blown the lead I didn't hold out too much hope.

There was a big difference between the English team on the pitch this weekend, who seemed to have lost its sense of purpose and direction, and the one that clinched the win at death against France in the Autumn Cup in 2020.
The momentum was all Scottish.

Come on, England wasn’t exactly playing the french “ A team “ either , most had Zero caps, the rest were not even starters in the 23 regulars EDF and the French were ahead at the 79’ until Dulin had a brain fart.

Spoiler

Show

France Team Line-up
Forwards
1 Hassan Kolingar
2 Pierre Bourgarit
3 Dorian Aldegheri
4 Baptiste Pesenti
5 Kilian Geraci
6 Cameron Woki
7 Anthony Jelonch
8 Selevasio Tofofua
Backs
9 Baptiste Couilloud (Captain)
10 Matthieu Jalibert
11 Gabin Villiere
12 Jonathan Danty
13 Yoram Moefana
14 Alivereti Raka
15 Brice Dulin
Replacements
16 Peato Mauvaka
17 Rodrigue Neti
18 Uini Atonio
19 Guillaume Ducat
20 Sekou Macalou
21 Sebastien Bezy
22 Louis Carbonel
23 Pierre-Louis Barassi

Conversely though last year we came from behind late to beat both France and South Africa, two of the best teams in the world. So Scotland deserve credit for snuffing us out.

[TheFrog]

There was a big difference between the English team on the pitch this weekend, who seemed to have lost its sense of purpose and direction, and the one that clinched the win at death against France in the Autumn Cup in 2020.
The momentum was all Scottish.

Come on, England wasn’t exactly playing the french “ A team “ either , most had Zero caps, the rest were not even starters in the 23 regulars EDF and the French were ahead at the 79’ until Dulin had a brain fart.

Spoiler

Show

France Team Line-up
Forwards
1 Hassan Kolingar
2 Pierre Bourgarit
3 Dorian Aldegheri
4 Baptiste Pesenti
5 Kilian Geraci
6 Cameron Woki
7 Anthony Jelonch
8 Selevasio Tofofua
Backs
9 Baptiste Couilloud (Captain)
10 Matthieu Jalibert
11 Gabin Villiere
12 Jonathan Danty
13 Yoram Moefana
14 Alivereti Raka
15 Brice Dulin
Replacements
16 Peato Mauvaka
17 Rodrigue Neti
18 Uini Atonio
19 Guillaume Ducat
20 Sekou Macalou
21 Sebastien Bezy
22 Louis Carbonel
23 Pierre-Louis Barassi

Conversely though last year we came from behind late to beat both France and South Africa, two of the best teams in the world. So Scotland deserve credit for snuffing us out.

I think everybody gives credit to Scotland for that performance that brightened this winter weekend for most 6N fans!

[Slick]

If this actually Marler…. Pretty funny. Not sure Eddie will agree

[Raggs]

It's really Dombrandt who screwed that up, not Marler.

[Tichtheid]

Marler was penalised for being a prop there, that throw is not any more squint that almost every short throw is now.

There was one in that draw between England and Scotland at Twickenham from a couple of years ago that England drove over for the score from a short throw and it was less straight than that, from memory,


Edit - it didn't go five now that I watch it again

[Big D]

If this actually Marler…. Pretty funny. Not sure Eddie will agree

Fair play to Marler, they will obviously be raging inside their camp but that's pretty funny.

[Slick]

Marler was penalised for being a prop there, that throw is not any more squint that almost every short throw is now.

There was one in that draw between England and Scotland at Twickenham from a couple of years ago that England drove over for the score from a short throw and it was less straight than that, from memory,


Edit - it didn't go five now that I watch it again

Yeah, not 5 was the call.

I did notice when watching the highlights that the whole commentary team were laughing at how squint the throw into the England line out was that proceeded their try

[JM2K6]

Yup. BCM had already had a go at the ref for missing a Scottish one, so he was frustrated already.

[Kawazaki]

It's hilarious the Jocks still being so parsimonious about a perceived crooked throw from England prior to their try but not a peep from them (or English fans) about the illegal lineout that led to their try.

[Slick]

It's hilarious the Jocks still being so parsimonious about a perceived crooked throw from England prior to their try but not a peep from them (or English fans) about the illegal lineout that led to their try.

Well, I hadn't even heard it mentioned until I saw the highlights and even then only from the commentators. Don't think anyone has mentioned it on here and I haven't seen it in any Scottish media that I've read.

I think there hasn't been much mention of the Scottish lineout because it has been explained in the media by at least 3 international refs that I've seen, plus on Rugby Special, that it wasn't illegal.

Apart from that, another cracking post, Toga.

[JM2K6]

It's hilarious the Jocks still being so parsimonious about a perceived crooked throw from England prior to their try but not a peep from them (or English fans) about the illegal lineout that led to their try.

Well, I hadn't even heard it mentioned until I saw the highlights and even then only from the commentators. Don't think anyone has mentioned it on here and I haven't seen it in any Scottish media that I've read.

I think there hasn't been much mention of the Scottish lineout because it has been explained in the media by at least 3 international refs that I've seen, plus on Rugby Special, that it wasn't illegal.

Apart from that, another cracking post, Toga.

Do you have any links to that media? I'm genuinely interested as there's been some discussion on it here and elsewhere and I've really not been sure what the laws require.

[Tichtheid]

Well, I hadn't even heard it mentioned until I saw the highlights and even then only from the commentators. Don't think anyone has mentioned it on here and I haven't seen it in any Scottish media that I've read.

I think there hasn't been much mention of the Scottish lineout because it has been explained in the media by at least 3 international refs that I've seen, plus on Rugby Special, that it wasn't illegal.

Apart from that, another cracking post, Toga.

Do you have any links to that media? I'm genuinely interested as there's been some discussion on it here and elsewhere and I've really not been sure what the laws require.

The laws are here https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/18

Rugby Special (Ugo) said that they had spoken to World Rugby and the line out was deemed legal


From what I saw watching it back, it was planned moved, Scotland had formed the line out so were ready to go, they had the minimum number of players (two) they had the receiver in position and all the other Scottish players were 10m back.
The throwing team don't have to wait for the opposition, if they aren't properly formed when the ball is thrown there are offences England (in this case) could be pinged for - having more than two in the line out, having players closer than 10m, not having a player in the 5m channel.

edit, watching it back again just now, there was one thing I thought Scotland might be pinged for, Zander Fagerson is running back to the 10m behind the line out as the ball is thrown, but the laws have this to cover it

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

Fagerson clearly retreats to behind the 10m, so everything is tickety boo

[JM2K6]

Well, I hadn't even heard it mentioned until I saw the highlights and even then only from the commentators. Don't think anyone has mentioned it on here and I haven't seen it in any Scottish media that I've read.

I think there hasn't been much mention of the Scottish lineout because it has been explained in the media by at least 3 international refs that I've seen, plus on Rugby Special, that it wasn't illegal.

Apart from that, another cracking post, Toga.

Do you have any links to that media? I'm genuinely interested as there's been some discussion on it here and elsewhere and I've really not been sure what the laws require.

The laws are here https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/18

Rugby Special (Ugo) said that they had spoken to World Rugby and the line out was deemed legal


From what I saw watching it back, it was planned moved, Scotland had formed the line out so were ready to go, they had the minimum number of players (two) they had the receiver in position and all the other Scottish players were 10m back.
The throwing team don't have to wait for the opposition, if they aren't properly formed when the ball is thrown there are offences England (in this case) could be pinged for - having more than two in the line out, having players closer than 10m, not having a player in the 5m channel.

edit, watching it back again just now, there was one thing I thought Scotland might be pinged for, Zander Fagerson is running back to the 10m behind the line out as the ball is thrown, but the laws have this to cover it

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

Fagerson clearly retreats to behind the 10m, so everything is tickety boo

Just saw a replay with all this in mind and I agree 100%. Fagerson was for me the one question mark but you're correct. I didn't know the specifics of that law and he deliberately went back the full 10 without a doubt. Cheers!

[TheFrog]

Marler was penalised for being a prop there, that throw is not any more squint that almost every short throw is now.

There was one in that draw between England and Scotland at Twickenham from a couple of years ago that England drove over for the score from a short throw and it was less straight than that, from memory,


Edit - it didn't go five now that I watch it again

I was going respond to you to say just that.

[Kawazaki]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

[clydecloggie]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

Doesn't matter, it was not a quick line out so those restrictions didn't apply.

[JM2K6]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

No and yes. It doesn't matter. It's not a quick lineout as defined by the laws. It's a normal (and formed) lineout, taken rapidly.

[Kawazaki]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

No and yes. It doesn't matter. It's not a quick lineout as defined by the laws. It's a normal (and formed) lineout, taken rapidly.

Was the throw straight?

[JM2K6]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

No and yes. It doesn't matter. It's not a quick lineout as defined by the laws. It's a normal (and formed) lineout, taken rapidly.

Was the throw straight?

Straighter than some that were let go.

If you want something to whinge about, how about this: The lineout was taken with the hooker standing directly behind the AR, who had his flag up and his arm out, and the hooker threw over him. It's reasonable that England were caught on the hop there. I must admit that looking at that I've always assumed that when the AR is standing on the mark with his arm out, you're not supposed to throw in yet.

[Tichtheid]

Is the ball the original ball that was kicked into touch and was it handled by any non-players?

It was a different ball, but as it wasn't what the laws deem a quick throw it doesn't matter.

It was a "proper" line out, it was formed on the mark with the required number of players in position.

[Kawazaki]

No and yes. It doesn't matter. It's not a quick lineout as defined by the laws. It's a normal (and formed) lineout, taken rapidly.

Was the throw straight?

Straighter than some that were let go.

If you want something to whinge about, how about this: The lineout was taken with the hooker standing directly behind the AR, who had his flag up and his arm out, and the hooker threw over him. It's reasonable that England were caught on the hop there. I must admit that looking at that I've always assumed that when the AR is standing on the mark with his arm out, you're not supposed to throw in yet.

I was just following the example of the Sweaties still moaning about the English lineout throw being crooked. Imagine the noise if they'd lost?!

[JM2K6]

They've been mentioning it largely because of the moaning about the scrums at the end, I expect. They got away with a very squint one that preceeded a bunch of howlers by the ref before he finally gave a penalty, so it was ultimately irrelevant, but them's the breaks. Sometimes the mistakes matter, sometimes they don't.