Flake Russell: what's the point?

[Chrysoprase]

Matt Dawson believes Warren Gatland is the man to lead the Lions for a fourth time

Why tf is this view getting parroted by people who should know better, don't they have eyes?

On Finn, I used to dislike him intensely because of his propensity for complete howlers which he would apparently just laugh off rather recognise them as the monumental cock-ups that they were. But having watched him this year in the 6N and during the 3rd test I've started to change my mind especially when we saw the night and day difference he made in that last one.

Apparently he's a student of the game and is learning every day which is good to hear and now I see him more as someone who loves the game and delights in playing it.

[Slick]

Matt Dawson believes Warren Gatland is the man to lead the Lions for a fourth time

Why tf is this view getting parroted by people who should know better, don't they have eyes?

On Finn, I used to dislike him intensely because of his propensity for complete howlers which he would apparently just laugh off rather recognise them as the monumental cock-ups that they were. But having watched him this year in the 6N and during the 3rd test I've started to change my mind especially when we saw the night and day difference he made in that last one.

Apparently he's a student of the game and is learning every day which is good to hear and now I see him more as someone who loves the game and delights in playing it.

Yeah, that used to annoy a lot of people, but it's just his way.

[JM2K6]

Tbf there's plenty of players who had/have a bad habit of screaming at their teammates after a personal fuckup, as if them kicking it out on the full or dropping it cold or whatever was the fault of the guy outside them. That pisses me off a lot more

[dpedin]

When Kenny Dalgliesh played football for Scotland folk used to criticise his form for the national team however the problem was he was just too good for many of the players around him and they couldn't anticipate or support him as he was yards ahead of them. He was just too good for us. To some extent Russell has the same problem, he needs other good players around him looking for the wee passes, off loads and kicks. I suspect that is why he plays so well for Racing as he has some excellent players around him in the back line who are excellent runners and comfortable with ball in hand and he seems to have developed a real relationship with them and they play as a unit. He had the same, albeit with not quite the same calibre of players at Glasgow, he has however suffered a little with Scotland depending on who we play outside him.

Although he looks not to care when he makes a mistake from what I hear he is a very hard working and determined player who trains hard and wants to win. However he enjoys the game and that shows on the pitch. I much prefer his attitude and enjoyment of the game when he plays rather than that moaning puss Biggar who seems miserable when playing and brings a soccer mentality to the game. Perhaps Biggar mirrors Gatland approach to the game better?

[Chrysoprase]

When Kenny Dalgliesh played football for Scotland folk used to criticise his form for the national team however the problem was he was just too good for many of the players around him and they couldn't anticipate or support him as he was yards ahead of them. He was just too good for us. To some extent Russell has the same problem, he needs other good players around him looking for the wee passes, off loads and kicks. I suspect that is why he plays so well for Racing as he has some excellent players around him in the back line who are excellent runners and comfortable with ball in hand and he seems to have developed a real relationship with them and they play as a unit. He had the same, albeit with not quite the same calibre of players at Glasgow, he has however suffered a little with Scotland depending on who we play outside him.

It's like Toonie all over again.

Edit: amended the quote to make it clearer which bit I was referring to

[Tichtheid]

Scotland currently have two very good 12s in Redpath and Johnson but neither of them are training at the moment, Redpath isn't due to be back playing until after Christmas, I don't know how Johnson's fitness is progressing.
With Harris and Jones at 13 there is a choice of styles.
van der Merwe, Maitland and Graham again offer choice and cover across the back three, Kinghorn as back up.

Price, Horne and Dobie offer depth from Glasgow at 9, I hope Blair can get the best out of Shiel and Vellacott at Edinburgh.
With Hastings at back up fly half and Thompson, Chamberlain and Savala the young lads coming through, I think this is the best Scotland backline pool I can name in the pro era.

There are others at Glasgow and Edinburgh too, young lads like Blain and McLean coming through

[Blackmac]

These are your rugby headlines on Wednesday, August 11.

Dawson: 'Gatland still the mane man' and Russell 'the next Dan Carter'

Matt Dawson believes Warren Gatland is the man to lead the Lions for a fourth time and believes Finn Russell would be dubbed "the next Dan Carter" if he were an All Black.

Former scrum-half Dawson says Gatland's record as the tourists' coach should count in his favour and hopes he sticks around the for the 2025 Australia tour.

"He’s obviously very good at it and given the time constraints and general constraints around this tour, the adversity that he, the players, the staff and the Lions as a whole overcame was magnificent, and they were a whisker away from winning a Test series," he told William Hill.

"He’s won in Australia so he’s got that under his belt, he’s got a drawn series in New Zealand, he’s been nicked at the death with the last kick of the game in South Africa – he’s got a very good record as Lions coach.

"Why would we want to change that? This is not just about rugby coaching, this is about bringing elite players together to go down to the southern hemisphere and win. It takes more than just the players.

Is this the same Matt Dawson who didn't pick one Scot in the 23 for the first test. Only 5 short Matty lad.

[Torquemada 1420]

When Kenny Dalgliesh played football for Scotland folk used to criticise his form for the national team however the problem was he was just too good for many of the players around him and they couldn't anticipate or support him as he was yards ahead of them. He was just too good for us. To some extent Russell has the same problem, he needs other good players around him looking for the wee passes, off loads and kicks. I suspect that is why he plays so well for Racing as he has some excellent players around him in the back line who are excellent runners and comfortable with ball in hand and he seems to have developed a real relationship with them and they play as a unit. He had the same, albeit with not quite the same calibre of players at Glasgow, he has however suffered a little with Scotland depending on who we play outside him.

Although he looks not to care when he makes a mistake from what I hear he is a very hard working and determined player who trains hard and wants to win. However he enjoys the game and that shows on the pitch. I much prefer his attitude and enjoyment of the game when he plays rather than that moaning puss Biggar who seems miserable when playing and brings a soccer mentality to the game. Perhaps Biggar mirrors Gatland approach to the game better?

A couple of issues here
1) No player is going to anticipate random f**k no matter how clever it looks or how much skill it takes to execute. If you do an overhead kick which your wing just misses and the oppo FB takes to run unchallenged, the length and under the posts, no-one is going to thank you. That is the issue I have with Russell. It's not what he can do (which is more than 99% of players) but his inability to know when to.... or more relevantly... not to do it.
2) I would imagine I watch a lot more Racing games than you do and he regularly f**ks up in precisely the way you describe. He's thrown more intercept try passes than anyone else in the T14 last season (and he missed a lot of games). You might argue, and it might be true, that he creates more tries than he gives away playing on the edge but that masks when those foul ups occur. He single handedly cost Racing the Euro final against Exeter. I still have visions of Le Roux thumping the bench in frustration at one of his howlers.

[JM2K6]

Hang on, famously it was Iribaren having a shocker for Racing in the final, when Machenaud was an alternative. Russell threw an intercept but was also the reason for three of the Racing tries.

[Torquemada 1420]

Hang on, famously it was Iribaren having a shocker for Racing in the final, when Machenaud was an alternative. Russell threw an intercept but was also the reason for three of the Racing tries.

IIRC (I've tried to blot the game out) he
- chucked an intercept to Nowell which led to one try (Slade?)
- tried a grubber which was never going to work and got hacked ahead for another try

14 point swing in a cup final is usually fatal and those were only the errors that resulted in points.

[notfatcat]

I wouldn't be surprised to see an improvement in Russell's game now that he's had a chance to work with Marcus Smith.

[JM2K6]

Hang on, famously it was Iribaren having a shocker for Racing in the final, when Machenaud was an alternative. Russell threw an intercept but was also the reason for three of the Racing tries.

IIRC (I've tried to blot the game out) he
- chucked an intercept to Nowell which led to one try (Slade?)
- tried a grubber which was never going to work and got hacked ahead for another try

14 point swing in a cup final is usually fatal and those were only the errors that resulted in points.

The grubber being blocked and kicked ahead ended up in a lineout, which Exeter then scored from. Shit like that happens all the time. He still ended up massively in the positive for his match contributions, unlike the useless fuck who was subbed at halftime (after putting his own team under huge pressure, leading to points conceded)

[Torquemada 1420]

I wouldn't be surprised to see an improvement in Russell's game now that he's had a chance to work with Marcus Smith.

[Tichtheid]

This came up from Rugby Dump, it explains the point of Finn Russell.

[charltom]

This came up from Rugby Dump, it explains the point of Finn Russell.

Quality.

[Slick]

Watched that a few times this morning now

[dpedin]

Magic, just magic!

[Big Nipper]

That nutmeg is a beauty. What a player

[Uncle fester]

Give over Torq. He was good in that lions third test and deserves immense credit for that.

[Uncle fester]

Time for a bump.

[Blackmac]

Time for a bump.

To be fair, every second week during the Six Nations is time for a bump.

[Uncle fester]

Bit of a shame. Had hoped he'd be able to string a sequence of performances together after his 3rd test performance in the summer.

[Biffer]

I don’t believe it was a deliberate knock on, I thought he was trying to knock it up to himself, so an attempt to get the ball. But it was a bit daft in that position at that time.

He also wasn’t helped having Tuipolotou outside him. Didn’t give him many options when we had the ball.

But the mistakes were brainless. Although it wasn’t just him. Idiot mistakes from a number of experienced players.

[Blackmac]

I don’t believe it was a deliberate knock on, I thought he was trying to knock it up to himself, so an attempt to get the ball. But it was a bit daft in that position at that time.

He also wasn’t helped having Tuipolotou outside him. Didn’t give him many options when we had the ball.

But the mistakes were brainless. Although it wasn’t just him. Idiot mistakes from a number of experienced players.

Russell wasn't the difference today. Too many other poor aspects from us to blame him.

[Biffer]

I don’t believe it was a deliberate knock on, I thought he was trying to knock it up to himself, so an attempt to get the ball. But it was a bit daft in that position at that time.

He also wasn’t helped having Tuipolotou outside him. Didn’t give him many options when we had the ball.

But the mistakes were brainless. Although it wasn’t just him. Idiot mistakes from a number of experienced players.

Russell wasn't the difference today. Too many other poor aspects from us to blame him.

Yeah. But when all the leaders (him, Hogg, Gray) are all poor that’s what happens.

[Torquemada 1420]

Russell wasn't the difference today. Too many other poor aspects from us to blame him.

Don't know what Townsend's game plan was today but if it was as executed, it was wrong. He asked a lot of Flake last week to play the oposite of type by kicking continuously and he did it well. They should have run it against a Welsh side with no confidence. Russell was sh*te but so was pretty much everything around him blue.

[Slick]

Russell wasn't the difference today. Too many other poor aspects from us to blame him.

Don't know what Townsend's game plan was today but if it was as executed, it was wrong. He asked a lot of Flake last week to play the oposite of type by kicking continuously and he did it well. They should have run it against a Welsh side with no confidence. Russell was sh*te but so was pretty much everything around him blue.

They took away his main outlet and left him to do everything. I’ve been saying for a long time that Sam Johnson is an absolutely vital cog when Scotland play well and to drop him from the squad was inexplicable.

[TheFrog]

never change Torq, you fucking loon

Mr Angry man.

His dream team is Andrew's England team. 10 men rugby, boring but clockwork.

[Torquemada 1420]

Scotland conceded eight penalties on the floor and 13 in all. The most costly one was the Russell yellow. The fly-half does things that only world-class players can do. He also does things that world-class players would rarely, if ever, do.

[Yr Alban]

Very few teams could afford to ignore a player of Russell’s undoubted talent. Scotland certainly can’t. But if we play him then we need to have a recognised back-up option on the bench for the days when it just isn’t working for him. Kinghorn is not that player - at least, not yet.

[Torquemada 1420]

Very few teams could afford to ignore a player of Russell’s undoubted talent. Scotland certainly can’t. But if we play him then we need to have a recognised back-up option on the bench for the days when it just isn’t working for him. Kinghorn is not that player - at least, not yet.

France are ignoring Macalou! But I take your point. I thought Kinghorn was your most incursive player when he came on yesterday but not sure he's a 10.

[Yr Alban]

Very few teams could afford to ignore a player of Russell’s undoubted talent. Scotland certainly can’t. But if we play him then we need to have a recognised back-up option on the bench for the days when it just isn’t working for him. Kinghorn is not that player - at least, not yet.

France are ignoring Macalou! But I take your point. I thought Kinghorn was your most incursive player when he came on yesterday but not sure he's a 10.

Yeah - occasionally you get two leading candidates, and the selectors usually go with the guy who is less exciting but steadier and more reliable. Finn wouldn’t have the number or caps he does if we’d had a Dan Biggar option instead. The best comparison I’ve ever come up with was back in the late 90s/early aughts, when the steadier Andrew Mehrtens was usually preferred to the arguably more talented Carlos Spencer. But Scotland don’t have a Mehrtens.

[Torquemada 1420]

Very few teams could afford to ignore a player of Russell’s undoubted talent. Scotland certainly can’t. But if we play him then we need to have a recognised back-up option on the bench for the days when it just isn’t working for him. Kinghorn is not that player - at least, not yet.

France are ignoring Macalou! But I take your point. I thought Kinghorn was your most incursive player when he came on yesterday but not sure he's a 10.

Yeah - occasionally you get two leading candidates, and the selectors usually go with the guy who is less exciting but steadier and more reliable. Finn wouldn’t have the number or caps he does if we’d had a Dan Biggar option instead. The best comparison I’ve ever come up with was back in the late 90s/early aughts, when the steadier Andrew Mehrtens was usually preferred to the arguably more talented Carlos Spencer. But Scotland don’t have a Mehrtens.

Particularly true at FH where foul ups tend to be more costly: rather like the goalie in football.

[Slick]

Very few teams could afford to ignore a player of Russell’s undoubted talent. Scotland certainly can’t. But if we play him then we need to have a recognised back-up option on the bench for the days when it just isn’t working for him. Kinghorn is not that player - at least, not yet.

France are ignoring Macalou! But I take your point. I thought Kinghorn was your most incursive player when he came on yesterday but not sure he's a 10.

Yeah - occasionally you get two leading candidates, and the selectors usually go with the guy who is less exciting but steadier and more reliable. Finn wouldn’t have the number or caps he does if we’d had a Dan Biggar option instead. The best comparison I’ve ever come up with was back in the late 90s/early aughts, when the steadier Andrew Mehrtens was usually preferred to the arguably more talented Carlos Spencer. But Scotland don’t have a Mehrtens.

Hastings. Where is he? He was excellent in the season Finn fucked off. I know he hasn’t been playing much but he has rarely let Scotland down

[SaintK]

France are ignoring Macalou! But I take your point. I thought Kinghorn was your most incursive player when he came on yesterday but not sure he's a 10.

Yeah - occasionally you get two leading candidates, and the selectors usually go with the guy who is less exciting but steadier and more reliable. Finn wouldn’t have the number or caps he does if we’d had a Dan Biggar option instead. The best comparison I’ve ever come up with was back in the late 90s/early aughts, when the steadier Andrew Mehrtens was usually preferred to the arguably more talented Carlos Spencer. But Scotland don’t have a Mehrtens.

Hastings. Where is he? He was excellent in the season Finn fucked off. I know he hasn’t been playing much but he has rarely let Scotland down

Been starting regularly for Glaws and playing pretty well from what I've seen

[Torquemada 1420]

I know it's PR but Nolan is the one pundit there who is good and he makes an interesting point about Russell:

Firstly, there was Finn Russell’s latest yellow card. Fly-half is not a position in which you would expect habitually to be yellow-carded, yet Russell has developed a real habit. He has seen yellow in his last three Six Nations away games, and we should not forget the red last year against France.

Russell is at the heart of so much that is good about this Scotland side; it was notable how they struggled for any ideas without him in those final frantic minutes against Wales. Yet being without him in crucial phases has happened all too often to Scotland recently. How exactly do you react as a team, or a coach, when your best player inspires the team to winning positions and then leaves them hanging with moments of madness?

He is an unerringly light-hearted character. Mistakes – and there are more than average .......

[Torquemada 1420]

I see Horgan and Kearney and then Rugby Special putting the boot into Russell for a poor work rate i.e. being lazy when he doesn't have the ball.

[Yr Alban]

I see Horgan and Kearney and then Rugby Special putting the boot into Russell for a poor work rate i.e. being lazy when he doesn't have the ball.

This is actually tedious bollocks. Russell actually works bloody hard and puts in a lot of tackles. We suffered years of a 10 who didn’t tackle and the difference is huge. Footage from one game won’t change that.

[Uncle fester]

Russell wasn't the primary problem with that backline. Him and the centres just don't click.

[Slick]

Russell wasn't the primary problem with that backline. Him and the centres just don't click.

Quite