Laws you know you don't know but were afraid to ask

[Openside]

Great thread idea.

Of course there's nothing unclear to me, but some of my friends are very unclear about who gets possession of the ball if it becomes unplayable straight from a kick. No doubt my friends would be grateful for an explanation.

The player catching the balls side gets put in at the scrum

[Niegs]

At what point is a charge down not a charge down? If someone drills a ball that doesn't go past head height, can you still 'knock it down' some distance away from the kicker or not be charged with a knock-on if you fumble it?

It could have been a mistake/misinterpretation, but I remember one incident where a player jumped early and high, was still a few metres away from the kicker; the ball was kicked low and he hit it with an out-stretched hand around his waist height (plus the half metre he'd jumped); deemed to be a knock-on.

I'm also unsure about offside during a charge down or if the ball is touched in flight. I used to think it put everyone onside, but have seen a few moments where the ref deemed someone to be offside.

[JM2K6]

At what point is a charge down not a charge down? If someone drills a ball that doesn't go past head height, can you still 'knock it down' some distance away from the kicker or not be charged with a knock-on if you fumble it?

It could have been a mistake/misinterpretation, but I remember one incident where a player jumped early and high, was still a few metres away from the kicker; the ball was kicked low and he hit it with an out-stretched hand around his waist height (plus the half metre he'd jumped); deemed to be a knock-on.

I'm also unsure about offside during a charge down or if the ball is touched in flight. I used to think it put everyone onside, but have seen a few moments where the ref deemed someone to be offside.

Ooh, good one. I don't know where the line is drawn, but if I were a ref and there was no actual law on this, I'd say it's a charge-down if it happens either immediately or before the apex of the kick is reached, i.e. if it's still rising. In your example I would still call that a charge-down.

You can be offside during a charge down if you are ahead of the person who charged it down. Famously - they wrote songs about this moment - I persuaded Insane Homer of this parish to change his mind on this regarding a try South Africa scored against England a few years back where this exact situation happened; a kick in the England 22 was charged down, and a South African player ahead of the chargedown put pressure on England that ultimately led to a score.

[Woddy]

At what point is a charge down not a charge down? If someone drills a ball that doesn't go past head height, can you still 'knock it down' some distance away from the kicker or not be charged with a knock-on if you fumble it?

It could have been a mistake/misinterpretation, but I remember one incident where a player jumped early and high, was still a few metres away from the kicker; the ball was kicked low and he hit it with an out-stretched hand around his waist height (plus the half metre he'd jumped); deemed to be a knock-on.

I'm also unsure about offside during a charge down or if the ball is touched in flight. I used to think it put everyone onside, but have seen a few moments where the ref deemed someone to be offside.

Ooh, good one. I don't know where the line is drawn, but if I were a ref and there was no actual law on this, I'd say it's a charge-down if it happens either immediately or before the apex of the kick is reached, i.e. if it's still rising. In your example I would still call that a charge-down.

You can be offside during a charge down if you are ahead of the person who charged it down. Famously - they wrote songs about this moment - I persuaded Insane Homer of this parish to change his mind on this regarding a try South Africa scored against England a few years back where this exact situation happened; a kick in the England 22 was charged down, and a South African player ahead of the chargedown put pressure on England that ultimately led to a score.

General rule must be when reaction times make it hand-to-ball contact rather than ball-to-hand. Appreciate movement of arms and hands into the path of the ball in knockdowns is always deliberate, but hopefully you get my point.

[Enzedder]

Excellent - we get to watch Jonah and Joost one more time

[Niegs]

At what point is a charge down not a charge down? If someone drills a ball that doesn't go past head height, can you still 'knock it down' some distance away from the kicker or not be charged with a knock-on if you fumble it?

It could have been a mistake/misinterpretation, but I remember one incident where a player jumped early and high, was still a few metres away from the kicker; the ball was kicked low and he hit it with an out-stretched hand around his waist height (plus the half metre he'd jumped); deemed to be a knock-on.

I'm also unsure about offside during a charge down or if the ball is touched in flight. I used to think it put everyone onside, but have seen a few moments where the ref deemed someone to be offside.

Ooh, good one. I don't know where the line is drawn, but if I were a ref and there was no actual law on this, I'd say it's a charge-down if it happens either immediately or before the apex of the kick is reached, i.e. if it's still rising. In your example I would still call that a charge-down.

You can be offside during a charge down if you are ahead of the person who charged it down. Famously - they wrote songs about this moment - I persuaded Insane Homer of this parish to change his mind on this regarding a try South Africa scored against England a few years back where this exact situation happened; a kick in the England 22 was charged down, and a South African player ahead of the chargedown put pressure on England that ultimately led to a score.

Cheers! That's clear and easy to understand re: the offside, unlike the lawbook ... you should offer yourself to WR as a lawbook editor!

[MungoMan]

If you knock a ball on and one of your players picks it up in an offside position, is that a penalty or the end of the game? The scrumhalf gets snotklap by all his forwards

Asking for a French ref.

Also, if you pass the ball very badly and your team-mate jumps in the air to catch it, can you be tackled while in the air or is it a penalty to the side that can pass the ball? The scrumhalf gets executed by firing squad after the game

Asking for a French ref.

These are excellent suggestions for law amendments and I will certainly support your campaign for membership of the WR lawmakers' group.

[Big D]

Great thread idea.

Of course there's nothing unclear to me, but some of my friends are very unclear about who gets possession of the ball if it becomes unplayable straight from a kick. No doubt my friends would be grateful for an explanation.

The player catching the balls side gets put in at the scrum

Unless it's from a kick off...I think.

[pjm1]

At what point is a charge down not a charge down? If someone drills a ball that doesn't go past head height, can you still 'knock it down' some distance away from the kicker or not be charged with a knock-on if you fumble it?

It could have been a mistake/misinterpretation, but I remember one incident where a player jumped early and high, was still a few metres away from the kicker; the ball was kicked low and he hit it with an out-stretched hand around his waist height (plus the half metre he'd jumped); deemed to be a knock-on.

I'm also unsure about offside during a charge down or if the ball is touched in flight. I used to think it put everyone onside, but have seen a few moments where the ref deemed someone to be offside.

Ooh, good one. I don't know where the line is drawn, but if I were a ref and there was no actual law on this, I'd say it's a charge-down if it happens either immediately or before the apex of the kick is reached, i.e. if it's still rising. In your example I would still call that a charge-down.

You can be offside during a charge down if you are ahead of the person who charged it down. Famously - they wrote songs about this moment - I persuaded Insane Homer of this parish to change his mind on this regarding a try South Africa scored against England a few years back where this exact situation happened; a kick in the England 22 was charged down, and a South African player ahead of the chargedown put pressure on England that ultimately led to a score.

Cheers! That's clear and easy to understand re: the offside, unlike the lawbook ... you should offer yourself to WR as a lawbook editor!

You don't realise how awful the layout and design of the lawbook actually is until you find reason to have to use it. When writing up yellow or red card reports after the match, having to specify the law that was contravened often becomes a long section of prose itself...

[Niegs]

You don't realise how awful the layout and design of the lawbook actually is until you find reason to have to use it. When writing up yellow or red card reports after the match, having to specify the law that was contravened often becomes a long section of prose itself...

And this is AFTER they 'simplified' the law book! ... when they announced that, I assumed they were going to look at the language and even some laws that could be streamlined with "do this only" rather than "don't do these five things". But I think all they did was put some things in charts, added some new diagrams.

[troglodiet]

You don't realise how awful the layout and design of the lawbook actually is until you find reason to have to use it. When writing up yellow or red card reports after the match, having to specify the law that was contravened often becomes a long section of prose itself...

And this is AFTER they 'simplified' the law book! ... when they announced that, I assumed they were going to look at the language and even some laws that could be streamlined with "do this only" rather than "don't do these five things". But I think all they did was put some things in charts, added some new diagrams.

In other words: they got consultants in to do the job.

[Plim]

Not a question about unclear situations under the laws, but a point that bothers me in the law’s application.

Why are knock-ons so much more likely to be judged deliberate, and therefore a penalty offence, and possibly attract a card, than forward passes? Both are dealt with under the same law: 11.

Attacking team passes, defending player sticks a hand out instinctively and knocks-on. Quite likely a penalty (and a yellow if the position was threatening for a try).

Attacking team passes to a player who’s over-run the carrier and is then in space. Might be pinged for forward but almost never a penalty, even when try scored and reversed or in a try-threatening position.

I can see that laws and interpretation might well favour attack on a discretionary basis but the disparity does seem odd. If instinctive, but reckless, reaction to intercepting a pass is a penalty, why not instinctive, but reckless, attempt to complete a pass?

[inactionman]

Not a question about unclear situations under the laws, but a point that bothers me in the law’s application.

Why are knock-ons so much more likely to be judged deliberate, and therefore a penalty offence, and possibly attract a card, than forward passes? Both are dealt with under the same law: 11.

Attacking team passes, defending player sticks a hand out instinctively and knocks-on. Quite likely a penalty (and a yellow if the position was threatening for a try).

Attacking team passes to a player who’s over-run the carrier and is then in space. Might be pinged for forward but almost never a penalty, even when try scored and reversed or in a try-threatening position.

I can see that laws and interpretation might well favour attack on a discretionary basis but the disparity does seem odd. If instinctive, but reckless, reaction to intercepting a pass is a penalty, why not instinctive, but reckless, attempt to complete a pass?

I've still not been inclined to read the laws so take this with a huge pinch of salt. In the examples above, one is a failing which stops your team's attacking so there is no benefit at all in doing it, the other is a deliberate - or, at minimum, reckless - act which stops the other team outside of the normal laws of the game and is penalised. A true attempt at an interception is fine, if it's fumbled it's simply a knock-on in the same way as if they'd dropped a pass from a teammate.

It does raise an interesting question though - hypothetically, if a player was just outside their own try line and was isolated and about to be tackled and rather than risk a turnover they threw the ball up the field to a teammate, it would be a quite intentional act to prevent the other team generating a scoring opportunity. Are there laws/sanctions around this?

[JM2K6]

Cynical destructive acts are always going to be penalised more harshly. Stopping the other team playing by doing cynical stuff is worse than perhaps deliberately passing forward in attack, which isn't committed against the other team and isn't breaking down play.

Honestly though most offences in attack are penalised fairly harshly anyway, with a few exceptions (as another example, a defender blocking an attacker would be penalised with a full penalty if it's considered foul play, but often an attacker running into another attacker and preventing a tackle would just result in a free kick)

[JM2K6]

It does raise an interesting question though - hypothetically, if a player was just outside their own try line and was isolated and about to be tackled and rather than risk a turnover they threw the ball up the field to a teammate, it would be a quite intentional act to prevent the other team generating a scoring opportunity. Are there laws/sanctions around this?

I suspect this would come under general sportsmanship laws and can be penalised regardless.

[Big D]

It does raise an interesting question though - hypothetically, if a player was just outside their own try line and was isolated and about to be tackled and rather than risk a turnover they threw the ball up the field to a teammate, it would be a quite intentional act to prevent the other team generating a scoring opportunity. Are there laws/sanctions around this?

I suspect this would come under general sportsmanship laws and can be penalised regardless.

Would likely be offside? No different to knocking on and a team matr picking it up.

[JM2K6]

It does raise an interesting question though - hypothetically, if a player was just outside their own try line and was isolated and about to be tackled and rather than risk a turnover they threw the ball up the field to a teammate, it would be a quite intentional act to prevent the other team generating a scoring opportunity. Are there laws/sanctions around this?

I suspect this would come under general sportsmanship laws and can be penalised regardless.

Would likely be offside? No different to knocking on and a team matr picking it up.

It's not a knock on and it's not a kick, it's just a pass, which has its own set of laws. But if it's a flagrantly deliberate bit of cheating, refs are within their rights to penalise it regardless of the specific law.

[Big D]

I suspect this would come under general sportsmanship laws and can be penalised regardless.

Would likely be offside? No different to knocking on and a team matr picking it up.

It's not a knock on and it's not a kick, it's just a pass, which has its own set of laws. But if it's a flagrantly deliberate bit of cheating, refs are within their rights to penalise it regardless of the specific law.

Just checked. Would fall under 10.1:
"A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:

a. Playing the ball."

Catching the ball would be interfering with it. A ref would almost certainly give offside in the contrived situation where it was thrown "upfield" to a team mate.

[JM2K6]

Would likely be offside? No different to knocking on and a team matr picking it up.

It's not a knock on and it's not a kick, it's just a pass, which has its own set of laws. But if it's a flagrantly deliberate bit of cheating, refs are within their rights to penalise it regardless of the specific law.

Just checked. Would fall under 10.1:
"A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:

a. Playing the ball."

Catching the ball would be interfering with it. A ref would almost certainly give offside in the contrived situation where it was thrown "upfield" to a team mate.

The law doesn't really work that way. By your reading, every player who catches a pass behind them (when they're in front of the passes) or who simply catches a forward pass is offside and should be penalised.

However, I think you've probably missed the something a few lines down that answers the question:

A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.

The word "unintentional" is key there. If the ref deems it an intentional throw forward, then he can ping for offside, or penalise the thrower instead for an act contrary to good sportsmanship. I suspect he'd penalise the thrower as it'd be more damaging than a penalty wherever the catcher was.

[Grandpa]

It's not a knock on and it's not a kick, it's just a pass, which has its own set of laws. But if it's a flagrantly deliberate bit of cheating, refs are within their rights to penalise it regardless of the specific law.

Just checked. Would fall under 10.1:
"A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:

a. Playing the ball."

Catching the ball would be interfering with it. A ref would almost certainly give offside in the contrived situation where it was thrown "upfield" to a team mate.

The law doesn't really work that way. By your reading, every player who catches a pass behind them (when they're in front of the passes) or who simply catches a forward pass is offside and should be penalised.

However, I think you've probably missed the something a few lines down that answers the question:

A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.

The word "unintentional" is key there. If the ref deems it an intentional throw forward, then he can ping for offside, or penalise the thrower instead for an act contrary to good sportsmanship. I suspect he'd penalise the thrower as it'd be more damaging than a penalty wherever the catcher was.

What if the catcher doesn't bother to catch it? Which is more likely.. just be a penalty from where the guy threw it from?

[JM2K6]

Just checked. Would fall under 10.1:
"A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:

a. Playing the ball."

Catching the ball would be interfering with it. A ref would almost certainly give offside in the contrived situation where it was thrown "upfield" to a team mate.

The law doesn't really work that way. By your reading, every player who catches a pass behind them (when they're in front of the passes) or who simply catches a forward pass is offside and should be penalised.

However, I think you've probably missed the something a few lines down that answers the question:

A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.

The word "unintentional" is key there. If the ref deems it an intentional throw forward, then he can ping for offside, or penalise the thrower instead for an act contrary to good sportsmanship. I suspect he'd penalise the thrower as it'd be more damaging than a penalty wherever the catcher was.

What if the catcher doesn't bother to catch it? Which is more likely.. just be a penalty from where the guy threw it from?

If the ref deems it to be a deliberate forward pass, almost definitely so, yes.

[Big D]

It's not a knock on and it's not a kick, it's just a pass, which has its own set of laws. But if it's a flagrantly deliberate bit of cheating, refs are within their rights to penalise it regardless of the specific law.

Just checked. Would fall under 10.1:
"A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:

a. Playing the ball."

Catching the ball would be interfering with it. A ref would almost certainly give offside in the contrived situation where it was thrown "upfield" to a team mate.

The law doesn't really work that way. By your reading, every player who catches a pass behind them (when they're in front of the passes) or who simply catches a forward pass is offside and should be penalised.

However, I think you've probably missed the something a few lines down that answers the question:

A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.

The word "unintentional" is key there. If the ref deems it an intentional throw forward, then he can ping for offside, or penalise the thrower instead for an act contrary to good sportsmanship. I suspect he'd penalise the thrower as it'd be more damaging than a penalty wherever the catcher was.

Edit:
Actually 11.7 is clear:
A player must not intentionally throw or pass the ball forward. Sanction: Penalty.

So not offside or unsporting just contrary to law 11.7.

[JM2K6]

[Punter15]

Apparently you are not allowed to throw the ball forward and re-catch it.. but can throw it backwards and re-catch it... at least there is no law against that...

So my question is.. can an opposition player tackle you while you throw the ball slightly backwards but up in the air? Or would that be tackling a player without the ball?

I remember Brian O'Driscoll essentially passing to himself and beating a man in the process - no sanction that I recall.

I would think you'd be fair game for a tackle, as you can be tackled whilst juggling to control a ball and I'd assume it'd fall into that category. You haven't relinquished possession of the ball.

Mind you, if you hurtled it fifty feet into the air and got smashed I'd think most refs wouldn't look too kindly on the tackler.

Maybe Guy can furnish us with the chapter and verse?

So when Sinbad did his fake scissors and passed to himself, the Baabaa defender (Montgomery?) just got stood up with no idea who to tackle. Fair enough, but who could he legally have hit? Only Sinbad I assume?

[Big D]

Apparently you are not allowed to throw the ball forward and re-catch it.. but can throw it backwards and re-catch it... at least there is no law against that...

So my question is.. can an opposition player tackle you while you throw the ball slightly backwards but up in the air? Or would that be tackling a player without the ball?

I remember Brian O'Driscoll essentially passing to himself and beating a man in the process - no sanction that I recall.

I would think you'd be fair game for a tackle, as you can be tackled whilst juggling to control a ball and I'd assume it'd fall into that category. You haven't relinquished possession of the ball.

Mind you, if you hurtled it fifty feet into the air and got smashed I'd think most refs wouldn't look too kindly on the tackler.

Maybe Guy can furnish us with the chapter and verse?

I've always thought they one should have been obstruction as he's the one in control of the ball and runs behind his teammate. The teammate wiped out thr defender.

[Punter15]

If the opposition scrum half fakes and breaks away from a ruck as a dummy runner without the ball, and I punch him in the face as he goes past, which team should congratulate me first?

[Woddy]

If the opposition scrum half fakes and breaks away from a ruck as a dummy runner without the ball, and I punch him in the face as he goes past, which team should congratulate me first?

The refereeing team: if you've broken his jaw, they'll get less chat from the gobshite.

[Woddy]

Using inactionman's scenario above, would the ensnared defender be penalised for passing/throwing the ball dead behind him? Aren't the laws a little weird re things going over the deadball line?

[Mahoney]

Using inactionman's scenario above, would the ensnared defender be penalised for passing/throwing the ball dead behind him? Aren't the laws a little weird re things going over the deadball line?

Nope - 9.7.b A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area. Sanction: Penalty.

Doesn't matter which line you throw it over.