Not Italy Again

[tc27]

Not worth watching most of the second half.

As said not going to read much into that game at all.

[petej]

I realise it's early days but given the furore surrounding him, Steward has been invisible in the 2 matches.

I think it's fair to say that the media took his good first few caps and went massively overboard with hype.

His lack of pace has been a bit of a problem, particularly in this game. Malins too. Might have been less of an issue if Radwan was on the wing.

Steward is decent but you need to balance out the back 3 which means at least 1 really fast winger if not 2.

[ASMO]

Steward is a really good defensive FB, will be great against better teams, not much of a front foot player though i agree...with Radwan on one wing he will be fine

[Random1]

I realise it's early days but given the furore surrounding him, Steward has been invisible in the 2 matches.

He looks like a tall Mike Brown. Which isn't a good thing.

Someone that can catch a high ball and tackle is an upgrade on what we had over the last 2 years.

Not Stellar, but at least I don’t have kittens as soon as the opposition boots the ball in the air.

[sockwithaticket]

Steward is a really good defensive FB, will be great against better teams, not much of a front foot player though i agree...with Radwan on one wing he will be fine

Yes there weren't many high balls for him to deal with today, other teams will probably employ him more in that aspect.

We definitely need some lightning pace in the back three to offset him, though. Malins and Daly are both quick, but neither are absolute speedsters.

[Hal Jordan]

Radwan Malins Steward would work as you have pace, trickery and solidity.

[ASMO]

Don't think Ireland or France will be quaking in their boots at the prospect of meeting England still.

[Kawazaki]

Steward is a really good defensive FB, will be great against better teams, not much of a front foot player though i agree...with Radwan on one wing he will be fine

Yes there weren't many high balls for him to deal with today, other teams will probably employ him more in that aspect.

We definitely need some lightning pace in the back three to offset him, though. Malins and Daly are both quick, but neither are absolute speedsters.

Dying with the ball was the main problem today. And he is slow, not slow for a test fullback but just slow. I said this when he first played and his arse was still full of smoke so I'm not being wise after the event.

[Lobby]

Has Tichtheid been on yet to argue that Slade's non-try at the end should have been a penalty try as the ball was deliberately knocked forward out of his hand by the Italian defender?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Not worth watching most of the second half.

As said not going to read much into that game at all.

I did like a lot of errors came from trying to play. We've had much worse at times.

[Ovals]

It was an underwhelming England performance but we beat them, away, more convincingly that France did, at home. Not that I'm trying to draw a line of form through the two games.

.
2 week break now - so we could well see Lawes, Launchbury and Manu back in contention for the Wales game. You'd hope that, playing at home, we'd able to beat Wales. If we don't then we could be on for another 5th place finish.

[C69]

It was an underwhelming England performance but we beat them, away, more convincingly that France did, at home. Not that I'm trying to draw a line of form through the two games.

.
2 week break now - so we could well see Lawes, Launchbury and Manu back in contention for the Wales game. You'd hope that, playing at home, we'd able to beat Wales. If we don't then we could be on for another 5th place finish.

Sickening arrogance...

[notfatcat]

Has Tichtheid been on yet to argue that Slade's non-try at the end should have been a penalty try as the ball was deliberately knocked forward out of his hand by the Italian defender?

[Torquemada 1420]

It was an underwhelming England performance but we beat them, away, more convincingly that France did, at home. Not that I'm trying to draw a line of form through the two games.

That would be unwise. Conditions were terrible in Paris but perfect in Rome. It was France's first outing which usually means rust but they gradually improved through the game. England did the reverse and got worse. Italy has a habit of putting in a gritty loss first game before going on to disappoint us all by getting poorer with each successive game. No idea what happened to their half backs who were excellent last week and terrible this.

The only guide to form will be when France and England meet.

[Paddington Bear]

It was an underwhelming England performance but we beat them, away, more convincingly that France did, at home. Not that I'm trying to draw a line of form through the two games.

That would be unwise. Conditions were terrible in Paris but perfect in Rome. It was France's first outing which usually means rust but they gradually improved through the game. England did the reverse and got worse. Italy has a habit of putting in a gritty loss first game before going on to disappoint us all by getting poorer with each successive game. No idea what happened to their half backs who were excellent last week and terrible this.

The only guide to form will be when France and England meet.

England under Jones have always stopped playing once the game is won. Not a criticism or a defence, just has been the case from 2016 onwards. No one got injured which I guess was Priority 1

[Brazil]

Having caught up with the Sale highlights I can safely say that I'm massively grateful that Eddie Jones is a stubborn psycho, because no other coach would select Ben Youngs over Raffi Quirke. The kid is phenomenal.

[Crash669]

Having caught up with the Sale highlights I can safely say that I'm massively grateful that Eddie Jones is a stubborn psycho, because no other coach would select Ben Youngs over Raffi Quirke. The kid is phenomenal.

They look a different side with faf and quirke back in the side. Who knows, next year Eddie might carry on being a cunt and not pick quirke or ford and sale will have a good year.

[Torquemada 1420]

Having caught up with the Sale highlights I can safely say that I'm massively grateful that Eddie Jones is a stubborn psycho, because no other coach would select Ben Youngs over Raffi Quirke. The kid is phenomenal.

They look a different side with faf and quirke back in the side. Who knows, next year Eddie might carry on being a cunt and not pick quirke or ford and sale will have a good year.

How long has Faf got on his contract? Because from Sale's perspective, you'd think they could massively lighten their salary load by offing Faf and, anyway, Sale face a potential bind:
- if Faf isn't getting the prime slot, is he likely to hang around?
- if Quirke is left playing 2nd fiddle for too long, he's likely to end up at Saracens

[JM2K6]

Sarries are more likely to get Ben Spencer back, I'd imagine. One of the few sides who can match Bath's "incentives" and he's ex-Saracens with good memories of the place.

[Brazil]

I think Faf's got another year, but there are rumours he's off at the end of this season to cash in in Japan. I think it would take a lot to get Quirke out of Sale, he's a local lad and has supported the club his whole life, plus Simon Orange would move heaven and earth to keep him you'd suspect. The idea of him and Ford together next year is mouth-watering, and also a motivation for him to stay put.

[tc27]

Actions of England physio at U21 game under investigation:

Six Nations: England face inquiry after Under-20 team doctor’s clash with referee
Alex Lowe, Rugby Correspondent
Monday February 14 2022, 12.01am, The Times
Rugby union
Six Nations 2022

Six Nations disciplinary officials are investigating an incident involving the England Under-20 team doctor towards the end of a 6-0 defeat by Italy in Treviso on Friday night.

The independent match doctor ruled that Deago Bailey, the Bristol Bears wing, required a head injury assessment (HIA) after he had fallen heavily in a collision with Lorenzo Pani, his opposite number.

England’s doctor, Nigel Rayner, sought to overrule that decision, arguing with Aurélie Groizeleau, the French referee, that Bailey was fine to continue. “It is my decision on the pitch,” he said. “I am a doctor. We have assessed him.”


Groizeleau, one of three female referees in charge of under-20 internationals at the weekend, replied that the final decision on an HIA lay with the independent match doctor and Bailey had to be replaced. “It is the match doctor who decides on the situation,” Groizeleau said.

At that point, Rayner left the field with an arm gesture that displayed his anger and made a comment towards Groizeleau. The citing commissioner is investigating what was said. The RFU declined to comment on claims the referee may have been told to “f*** off”.


In the middle of the incident, another member of England’s medical staff can also be heard asking the referee if Pani would be shown a yellow card because of the way Bailey had landed. Groizeleau said there had been no foul play.

Bill Sweeney, the RFU’s chief executive, and Conor O’Shea, the director of performance rugby, were both present at the game. The RFU said it would co-operate.

“Every Six Nations Rugby Championship fixture is reviewed, and any necessary action taken in the event of an incident,” the RFU said in a statement. “Player welfare and the good of the game is paramount, which is a collaborative process between Six Nations Rugby, Unions, Federations and World Rugby, who have developed robust protocols and regulations.

“This weekend’s Championship games are being reviewed as is common practice and following the conclusion of these reviews, any relevant information will be issued.”



The conduct of the England medical staff has been criticised by Adam White, executive director (UK) of the Concussion Legacy Foundation.

“For many years the rugby authorities have repeatedly claimed they are at the forefront of player safety when it comes to concussion. Yet, their best doctors that are part of their international set up, are not only getting the process wrong, they are also arguing with a match official who was doing what is expected in the laws of the game,” White said.

“This is exactly why rugby cannot continue to mark its own homework and independent oversight is needed to enhance concussion safety. This is just one example for why change is needed now.

“I hope England Rugby do the right thing and start to put player safety first. Unfortunately, I expect to continue to be disappointed by their inaction.

[ASMO]

Actions of England physio at U21 game under investigation:

Six Nations: England face inquiry after Under-20 team doctor’s clash with referee
Alex Lowe, Rugby Correspondent
Monday February 14 2022, 12.01am, The Times
Rugby union
Six Nations 2022

Six Nations disciplinary officials are investigating an incident involving the England Under-20 team doctor towards the end of a 6-0 defeat by Italy in Treviso on Friday night.

The independent match doctor ruled that Deago Bailey, the Bristol Bears wing, required a head injury assessment (HIA) after he had fallen heavily in a collision with Lorenzo Pani, his opposite number.

England’s doctor, Nigel Rayner, sought to overrule that decision, arguing with Aurélie Groizeleau, the French referee, that Bailey was fine to continue. “It is my decision on the pitch,” he said. “I am a doctor. We have assessed him.”


Groizeleau, one of three female referees in charge of under-20 internationals at the weekend, replied that the final decision on an HIA lay with the independent match doctor and Bailey had to be replaced. “It is the match doctor who decides on the situation,” Groizeleau said.

At that point, Rayner left the field with an arm gesture that displayed his anger and made a comment towards Groizeleau. The citing commissioner is investigating what was said. The RFU declined to comment on claims the referee may have been told to “f*** off”.


In the middle of the incident, another member of England’s medical staff can also be heard asking the referee if Pani would be shown a yellow card because of the way Bailey had landed. Groizeleau said there had been no foul play.

Bill Sweeney, the RFU’s chief executive, and Conor O’Shea, the director of performance rugby, were both present at the game. The RFU said it would co-operate.

“Every Six Nations Rugby Championship fixture is reviewed, and any necessary action taken in the event of an incident,” the RFU said in a statement. “Player welfare and the good of the game is paramount, which is a collaborative process between Six Nations Rugby, Unions, Federations and World Rugby, who have developed robust protocols and regulations.

“This weekend’s Championship games are being reviewed as is common practice and following the conclusion of these reviews, any relevant information will be issued.”



The conduct of the England medical staff has been criticised by Adam White, executive director (UK) of the Concussion Legacy Foundation.

“For many years the rugby authorities have repeatedly claimed they are at the forefront of player safety when it comes to concussion. Yet, their best doctors that are part of their international set up, are not only getting the process wrong, they are also arguing with a match official who was doing what is expected in the laws of the game,” White said.

“This is exactly why rugby cannot continue to mark its own homework and independent oversight is needed to enhance concussion safety. This is just one example for why change is needed now.

“I hope England Rugby do the right thing and start to put player safety first. Unfortunately, I expect to continue to be disappointed by their inaction.

Throw a very large heavy book at them, idiots the lot of them, wonder if the England doc thought he would try his luck just because the ref happenned to be a woman, good for her she stuck to her guns and did the right thing. anyone asking for a yellow card should automatically be given one. Would soon stop that shithouse behaviour.

[laurent]

Actions of England physio at U21 game under investigation:

Six Nations: England face inquiry after Under-20 team doctor’s clash with referee
Alex Lowe, Rugby Correspondent
Monday February 14 2022, 12.01am, The Times
Rugby union
Six Nations 2022

Six Nations disciplinary officials are investigating an incident involving the England Under-20 team doctor towards the end of a 6-0 defeat by Italy in Treviso on Friday night.

The independent match doctor ruled that Deago Bailey, the Bristol Bears wing, required a head injury assessment (HIA) after he had fallen heavily in a collision with Lorenzo Pani, his opposite number.

England’s doctor, Nigel Rayner, sought to overrule that decision, arguing with Aurélie Groizeleau, the French referee, that Bailey was fine to continue. “It is my decision on the pitch,” he said. “I am a doctor. We have assessed him.”


Groizeleau, one of three female referees in charge of under-20 internationals at the weekend, replied that the final decision on an HIA lay with the independent match doctor and Bailey had to be replaced. “It is the match doctor who decides on the situation,” Groizeleau said.

At that point, Rayner left the field with an arm gesture that displayed his anger and made a comment towards Groizeleau. The citing commissioner is investigating what was said. The RFU declined to comment on claims the referee may have been told to “f*** off”.


In the middle of the incident, another member of England’s medical staff can also be heard asking the referee if Pani would be shown a yellow card because of the way Bailey had landed. Groizeleau said there had been no foul play.

Bill Sweeney, the RFU’s chief executive, and Conor O’Shea, the director of performance rugby, were both present at the game. The RFU said it would co-operate.

“Every Six Nations Rugby Championship fixture is reviewed, and any necessary action taken in the event of an incident,” the RFU said in a statement. “Player welfare and the good of the game is paramount, which is a collaborative process between Six Nations Rugby, Unions, Federations and World Rugby, who have developed robust protocols and regulations.

“This weekend’s Championship games are being reviewed as is common practice and following the conclusion of these reviews, any relevant information will be issued.”



The conduct of the England medical staff has been criticised by Adam White, executive director (UK) of the Concussion Legacy Foundation.

“For many years the rugby authorities have repeatedly claimed they are at the forefront of player safety when it comes to concussion. Yet, their best doctors that are part of their international set up, are not only getting the process wrong, they are also arguing with a match official who was doing what is expected in the laws of the game,” White said.

“This is exactly why rugby cannot continue to mark its own homework and independent oversight is needed to enhance concussion safety. This is just one example for why change is needed now.

“I hope England Rugby do the right thing and start to put player safety first. Unfortunately, I expect to continue to be disappointed by their inaction.

Throw a very large heavy book at them, idiots the lot of them, wonder if the England doc thought he would try his luck just because the ref happenned to be a woman, good for her she stuck to her guns and did the right thing. anyone asking for a yellow card should automatically be given one. Would soon stop that shithouse behaviour.

She is a very good ref that the French see regularly at Pro level (I think she did ref a nuber of ProD2 and was assistant on Top14).
She is also capped for France.

I doubt she would give in to any dickheads.

I do hope both physio and doc get the rule book thrown at them their behaviour was appalling.

[sockwithaticket]

The physio has absolutely no business to be suggesting to the officials that something be checked by the TMO. That's completely outside his remit.

The doctor at least had a professional reason to be interacting with the officials. However, he was clearly in the wrong in a way that potentially puts a player's health at risk and the way he conducted himself was unacceptable.

They should be sanctioned harshly. Not least as an example to others since too much involvement from support staff is creeping into the game.

[Lobby]

The physio has absolutely no business to be suggesting to the officials that something be checked by the TMO. That's completely outside his remit.

The doctor at least had a professional reason to be interacting with the officials. However, he was clearly in the wrong in a way that potentially puts a player's health at risk and the way he conducted himself was unacceptable.

They should be sanctioned harshly. Not least as an example to others since too much involvement from support staff is creeping into the game.

Its an interesting contrast to the full 6N match, where the English Doctor asked the referee politely for more time to check whether Nowell should have an HIA, but was refused by the (very poor) Aussie Ref, who thought it more important for play to resume than check a player was safe to continue. In that case the English back room staff were respectful, and in the right.

In the U20 match the English back room staff were disgraceful and in the wrong, but were managed very well by the French Ref, who as all have acknowledged on this thread, was superb throughout.

The English medic and physio should have the book thrown at them.

[Torquemada 1420]

The physio has absolutely no business to be suggesting to the officials that something be checked by the TMO. That's completely outside his remit.

The doctor at least had a professional reason to be interacting with the officials. However, he was clearly in the wrong in a way that potentially puts a player's health at risk and the way he conducted himself was unacceptable.

They should be sanctioned harshly. Not least as an example to others since too much involvement from support staff is creeping into the game.

Yup. Questioned at the time just WTF he thought he was doing. He was wrong on all counts
1) It was not for him to decide an HIA.
2) It certainly was not for him to be asking for a penalty.
3) He clearly didn't give a sh*t about the player's safety.

England would do well to send a message by dropping him entirely. Embarrassing all round.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think Faf's got another year, but there are rumours he's off at the end of this season to cash in in Japan. I think it would take a lot to get Quirke out of Sale, he's a local lad and has supported the club his whole life, plus Simon Orange would move heaven and earth to keep him you'd suspect. The idea of him and Ford together next year is mouth-watering, and also a motivation for him to stay put.

That makes the most sense. Keep the promising youngster and cut the wage bill at the same time. Ford's arrival presumably signals a change in game style for Sale?

[sturginho]

The physio has absolutely no business to be suggesting to the officials that something be checked by the TMO. That's completely outside his remit.

The doctor at least had a professional reason to be interacting with the officials. However, he was clearly in the wrong in a way that potentially puts a player's health at risk and the way he conducted himself was unacceptable.

They should be sanctioned harshly. Not least as an example to others since too much involvement from support staff is creeping into the game.

Yup. Questioned at the time just WTF he thought he was doing. He was wrong on all counts
1) It was not for him to decide an HIA.
2) It certainly was not for him to be asking for a penalty.
3) He clearly didn't give a sh*t about the player's safety.

England would do well to send a message by dropping him entirely. Embarrassing all round.

The saddest part is #3, they cared more about the result than the young lad they were supposed to be looking after

[sockwithaticket]

The physio has absolutely no business to be suggesting to the officials that something be checked by the TMO. That's completely outside his remit.

The doctor at least had a professional reason to be interacting with the officials. However, he was clearly in the wrong in a way that potentially puts a player's health at risk and the way he conducted himself was unacceptable.

They should be sanctioned harshly. Not least as an example to others since too much involvement from support staff is creeping into the game.

Yup. Questioned at the time just WTF he thought he was doing. He was wrong on all counts
1) It was not for him to decide an HIA.
2) It certainly was not for him to be asking for a penalty.
3) He clearly didn't give a sh*t about the player's safety.

England would do well to send a message by dropping him entirely. Embarrassing all round.

The saddest part is #3, they cared more about the result than the young lad they were supposed to be looking after

Which is what makes it even crazier. Obviously it's never ok to prioritise a result over a player's wellbeing, but if there's ever a situation where keeping a particular winger on the pitch isn't really going to affect the outcome, it's needing 7 points with 3 minutes left on the clock and about to deal with a defensive lineout around the middle of the pitch. Bringing on number 11 who'd been tactically substituted earlier would make basically zero difference given 14 hadn't exactly been a rampant force who looked like he could win the game singlehanded. Notwithstanding that even if he had been a dominant force, if he was concussed his efficacy would probably be greatly reduced.

It's not medically ethical to try and leave him on and from a tactical standpoint it wasn't a hill worth dying on

[JM2K6]

I think Faf's got another year, but there are rumours he's off at the end of this season to cash in in Japan. I think it would take a lot to get Quirke out of Sale, he's a local lad and has supported the club his whole life, plus Simon Orange would move heaven and earth to keep him you'd suspect. The idea of him and Ford together next year is mouth-watering, and also a motivation for him to stay put.

That makes the most sense. Keep the promising youngster and cut the wage bill at the same time. Ford's arrival presumably signals a change in game style for Sale?

MacGinty's a Diet Ford I think, won't change things too much. Ford's a well rounded 10 who can play most styles.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think Faf's got another year, but there are rumours he's off at the end of this season to cash in in Japan. I think it would take a lot to get Quirke out of Sale, he's a local lad and has supported the club his whole life, plus Simon Orange would move heaven and earth to keep him you'd suspect. The idea of him and Ford together next year is mouth-watering, and also a motivation for him to stay put.

That makes the most sense. Keep the promising youngster and cut the wage bill at the same time. Ford's arrival presumably signals a change in game style for Sale?

MacGinty's a Diet Ford I think, won't change things too much. Ford's a well rounded 10 who can play most styles.

Implies Ford to play Sale rather than Sale to play Ford. A simplification I realise. MacGinty about to become a Ford escort....

[duke]

That makes the most sense. Keep the promising youngster and cut the wage bill at the same time. Ford's arrival presumably signals a change in game style for Sale?

MacGinty's a Diet Ford I think, won't change things too much. Ford's a well rounded 10 who can play most styles.

Implies Ford to play Sale rather than Sale to play Ford. A simplification I realise. MacGinty about to become a Ford escort....

To carry on the vehicular analogy, MacGinty is about to become a Bristol Beaufighter

[duke]

Yup. Questioned at the time just WTF he thought he was doing. He was wrong on all counts
1) It was not for him to decide an HIA.
2) It certainly was not for him to be asking for a penalty.
3) He clearly didn't give a sh*t about the player's safety.

England would do well to send a message by dropping him entirely. Embarrassing all round.

The saddest part is #3, they cared more about the result than the young lad they were supposed to be looking after

Which is what makes it even crazier. Obviously it's never ok to prioritise a result over a player's wellbeing, but if there's ever a situation where keeping a particular winger on the pitch isn't really going to affect the outcome, it's needing 7 points with 3 minutes left on the clock and about to deal with a defensive lineout around the middle of the pitch. Bringing on number 11 who'd been tactically substituted earlier would make basically zero difference given 14 hadn't exactly been a rampant force who looked like he could win the game singlehanded. Notwithstanding that even if he had been a dominant force, if he was concussed his efficacy would probably be greatly reduced.

It's not medically ethical to try and leave him on and from a tactical standpoint it wasn't a hill worth dying on

Makes me wonder whether the coaching team were pushing to keep Bailey on as well and should be included in the censure

[Torquemada 1420]

MacGinty's a Diet Ford I think, won't change things too much. Ford's a well rounded 10 who can play most styles.

Implies Ford to play Sale rather than Sale to play Ford. A simplification I realise. MacGinty about to become a Ford escort....

To carry on the vehicular analogy, MacGinty is about to become a Bristol Beaufighter

Was having a nose around a 411 last Thursday. Owned by a director of Cosworth [/Globus]

[Niegs]

The saddest part is #3, they cared more about the result than the young lad they were supposed to be looking after

I was just thinking about this, appreciating that my physios when coaching at the Prem/uni levels had no rugby background at all. They didn't care about the result and I gave them a few tips on what to look out for, where injuries are most likely to occur and to watch behind the play for anyone who looks like they're straggling.

[JM2K6]

The saddest part is #3, they cared more about the result than the young lad they were supposed to be looking after

I was just thinking about this, appreciating that my physios when coaching at the Prem/uni levels had no rugby background at all. They didn't care about the result and I gave them a few tips on what to look out for, where injuries are most likely to occur and to watch behind the play for anyone who looks like they're straggling.

Genuinely think we need a disciplinary system for player welfare that's as rigorously policed as for on-field foul play.

[sturginho]

[JM2K6]

It still bothers me that Daly gave up the chase for that kick