Yep, been very impressed with what I've seen of him and Ojomoh as wellStranger wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:17 pm I am optimistic that Kelly will become the player we need ay 12
The Official English Rugby Thread
Barbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:14 pmRaggs wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:10 pmhttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... wonderkid/JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:59 pm I did some googling: https://www.rugbyworld.com/in-the-mag/h ... ary-117708
Both Wasps and England saw him as a forward, not a centre. Now, it's possible everyone fucked up. Or it's possible he just didn't have the skillset required for centre.
Started in the front row when u16, playing in the u18s at school.
To help develop his skills he was moved to number 8. In his final year he was moved to centre to develop even more skills (though he still threw in for school games).
His England age grade stuff was all at hooker, and he played hooker in some mens games (not prem but lower level).
He's an extremely skillful forward, no arguments there, but what's wrong with him being an exceptionally skillful forward, who also happens to be a wrecking ball carrier wherever, instead of an averagely skilled back, who is a wrecking ball carrier.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Raggs wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:25 pmBarbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:14 pmRaggs wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:10 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... wonderkid/
Started in the front row when u16, playing in the u18s at school.
To help develop his skills he was moved to number 8. In his final year he was moved to centre to develop even more skills (though he still threw in for school games).
His England age grade stuff was all at hooker, and he played hooker in some mens games (not prem but lower level).
He's an extremely skillful forward, no arguments there, but what's wrong with him being an exceptionally skillful forward, who also happens to be a wrecking ball carrier wherever, instead of an averagely skilled back, who is a wrecking ball carrier.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Pace is not Tuilagi's USP is it. When do you ever see it employed?
And? Come on, players develop at different rates, and virtually every top level pro player dominated in whatever position they were in when they were 14-15 years old. That's just how it goes.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pmJM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:56 pmI don't know what I'm expected to learn beyond he tore it up amongst literal children but sure, I'll take a look. Surely we've both seen enough evidence of players who succeed in the backs at that age due to overwhelmingly superior physicality who are found out in senior rugby?Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:30 pm
There are loads of very very good backs playing rugby who are eligible for England. There are not many who can carry the ball up like Barbeary. To be honest, I thought you were more enlightened than the typical morons you get in junior rugby who think, 'he's a big lump, lets chuck him in the front-row'.
p.s educate yourself and watch those videos.
Like, I don't know the reasons for his move, just like I don't know the reasons for Sinckler's move. Maybe it was just "stick the big kid in the pack". Maybe it was more "your passing and general handling are shit, you have very little vision, but you've enormous potential on the carry and a big engine - you should consider being a forward". Tom Youngs was an England U20s centre and ended up a front row - and frankly having seen him in the U20s it was pretty obviously the right call, despite his 'success' at age grade level.
Those 'literal' children were called his peers.
He's done a job on the wing a few times. I can't imagine Barbeary ever being anywhere near quick enough to cope there. Manu'd be on the slow side for a winger, but he's not a slow back, as we've seen plenty of times, and he's in a different speed category entirely to Barbeary.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pmRaggs wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:25 pmBarbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:14 pm
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Pace is not Tuilagi's USP is it. When do you ever see it employed?
As for Manu's skill-set, he has the game to be a centre, bar kicking. He's not incapable of putting in (and timing) good passes, he's just a bit of a crowbar due to his physical superiority. And he can pick great lines.
JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:04 pmHe's done a job on the wing a few times. I can't imagine Barbeary ever being anywhere near quick enough to cope there. Manu'd be on the slow side for a winger, but he's not a slow back, as we've seen plenty of times, and he's in a different speed category entirely to Barbeary.
As for Manu's skill-set, he has the game to be a centre, bar kicking. He's not incapable of putting in (and timing) good passes, he's just a bit of a crowbar due to his physical superiority. And he can pick great lines.
Well how fast is Barbeary? Have you seen him running in open field? Has he trained and conditioned to run fast?
The point you're missing (depressingly) is that he has obvious gifts (he's full of fast twitch fibres) that raised him above his peers as a junior. Those gifts are still raising him above fully professional grown adult peers. He could have developed in his formative years as a centre but instead he was learning to be a hooker and now relearning to be a backrower. Both positions that England already have depth in.
I've seen Alex Dombrandt absolutely tear it up against kids and look like a runaway freight train, but that doesn't mean I think he should've been a centre even though he has vision and handling skills that Barbeary can only dream of.
And no, I don't think I've ever seen Barbeary show the sort of pace that Manu has. There's enough Wasps fans saying you're wrong on this as well and they'd know better than you or I.
And no, I don't think I've ever seen Barbeary show the sort of pace that Manu has. There's enough Wasps fans saying you're wrong on this as well and they'd know better than you or I.
The suggestion that part of Manu's USP isn't his pace and acceleration is completely nuts. The reason he busts so many tackles is that he's going so damn fast when he hits them, combined with his freakish size. Barbeary busts tackles, but often in a more pinball manner, seemingly getting stopped, then magically starting up again, a bit like Picamoles used to. I'm sure he could do a good job in the centres, but to reach the sort of pace that would allow for the breaks Manu creates, he'd almost certainly have to drop a lot of weight. I don't think he could have been a high quality international centre, I do think he can be a high quality international backrow (and could have possibly been hooker).
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:21 pm I've seen Alex Dombrandt absolutely tear it up against kids and look like a runaway freight train, but that doesn't mean I think he should've been a centre even though he has vision and handling skills that Barbeary can only dream of.
And no, I don't think I've ever seen Barbeary show the sort of pace that Manu has. There's enough Wasps fans saying you're wrong on this as well and they'd know better than you or I.
Dombrandt is too heavy to play centre but it's not the worst idea you've ever suggested.
I'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:17 pmI'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
Yes, both of them are forwards.
Keep up.
So you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:19 pmJM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:17 pmI'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
Yes, both of them are forwards.
Keep up.
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:44 pmSo you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
You wouldn't know would you.
- Hal Jordan
- Posts: 4599
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm
- Location: Sector 2814
Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
-
- Posts: 796
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:09 pm
I actually do know this.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:14 pmJM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:44 pmSo you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
You wouldn't know would you.
He's nowhere near the pace. Wasps did think about it.
His 0-5m is explosive, but not someone who has only twitch fibres.
He's a fucking brute. The wasps set up are upset that he doesn't want to play hooker because they think he'd be awesome there, but he hates it.
He's still probably the most devastating carrier in heavy traffic in the premiership
- Hal Jordan
- Posts: 4599
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm
- Location: Sector 2814
Brute 6, then? I like them.Happyhooker wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:52 pmI actually do know this.Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:14 pmJM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:44 pm
So you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
You wouldn't know would you.
He's nowhere near the pace. Wasps did think about it.
His 0-5m is explosive, but not someone who has only twitch fibres.
He's a fucking brute. The wasps set up are upset that he doesn't want to play hooker because they think he'd be awesome there, but he hates it.
He's still probably the most devastating carrier in heavy traffic in the premiership
<Wistful memories of Big Mo smashing it for Quins in the League winning team back in the day>
-
- Posts: 9254
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
Well, checking the scores, it looks like I picked a good evening to be doing something else. Presumably Wasps' recent habit of only really waking up in the final 20 came back to haunt them?
-
- Posts: 9254
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
Hell of a strike ratre for a scrummy.Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
- Hal Jordan
- Posts: 4599
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm
- Location: Sector 2814
Directly set up more than a few as well, especially with grubber kicks.sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:36 amHell of a strike ratre for a scrummy.Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
I've also seen him hit a drop goal off the back of a ruck, he just reached in, grabbed the ball out and knocked it over.
If there was a Premiership equivalent of the NFL Hall of Fame, he'd be a shoo in.
- Paddington Bear
- Posts: 6660
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:29 pm
- Location: Hertfordshire
Here we go then, my absolute least favourite day of the year
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:36 amHell of a strike ratre for a scrummy.Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
If he'd been more of a brown noser, it might have been him on 114 caps instead of Youngs.
- Hal Jordan
- Posts: 4599
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm
- Location: Sector 2814
Ditto. There's something deeply unpleasant about it.Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:00 am Here we go then, my absolute least favourite day of the year
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:08 pm
England v Wales 6 nations is the reason I became a Quins season ticket holder.Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:00 am Here we go then, my absolute least favourite day of the year
Some years ago I got tickets for the game through work. Expensive tickets. The match was a festering pile of shite where England, again, blew a decent lead. I realised that I liked watching good rugby and this didn't qualify

Well at l;east he's not at full backLobby wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:12 pm In the absence of Tuilagi, Daly has been chosen to come in at 13, with Marchant on the bench.
I know Marchant hasn’t trained with them this week, but Daly was an empty shirt against Scotland.
- Hal Jordan
- Posts: 4599
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm
- Location: Sector 2814
Was he ever?SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:16 pmWell at l;east he's not at full backLobby wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:12 pm In the absence of Tuilagi, Daly has been chosen to come in at 13, with Marchant on the bench.
I know Marchant hasn’t trained with them this week, but Daly was an empty shirt against Scotland.
This message coming through from 2018.
The one time Eddie delays his endless subs and they actually could have done with being on earlier.
Really struggling with the Lawes as captain thing.
We picked a back line that we thought would have Tuilagi in and it was powder puff without him.
No shape in attack.
Really struggling with the Lawes as captain thing.
We picked a back line that we thought would have Tuilagi in and it was powder puff without him.
No shape in attack.
I think he contracted HIV of the eyes from watching the outside backs larking about, so was taken off for observation.geordie_6 wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:07 pm We won't live with Ireland on this form, and France will destroy us.
Was Curry injured or subbed tactically?
Chris Jack, 67 test All Black - "I was voted most useless and laziest cunt in the English Premiership two years on the trot"
-
- Posts: 9254
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
Tail end of 2017... 2018 was not a surprise at all given how poorly we played for a lot of that year.