Last minute Ireland v Italy fred

[Mahoney]

Why did Italy have to restart after Ireland were held up in goal? Couldn’t that have been the end of the match?

I think the ref said there were still 8 seconds left when play was stopped. A more sympathetic ref would have simply blown for time, given the result wasn’t in doubt.

Fair enough, had the volume off - ITV had time up.

[Mahoney]

The more I think about it, the crazier it is. What absolute moron came up with the stipulation that it applies to reds as well?

It all makes sense for injuries and front rows getting dicked pulling a fast one on that front. For red cards? No chance, you're already down a man. No one is purposefully getting a red card to depower a scrum.

It's beyond stupid from WR.

As usual in any walk of life some people/teams take the piss and so ridiculous laws are needed.

Anyway, well done Italy, particularly the skipper, but as someone else said this may actually perversely stop some of the chucking out chat

Also, well done the ref, huge day for him and Georgian rugby and he did as well as he couple with all that thrown at him

When has a team ever deliberately conceded a red card to depower a scrum?

It's just not a thing.

Yes, the only time when further sanction is necessary is when the second incident is a contact injury, because it's possible a team might fake that to get uncontested scrums. No team is ever going to deliberately get a player red carded to achieve uncontested scrums - or even yellow for that matter (and if they did they'd already have been punished by, you know, having a player off the pitch...).

[JM2K6]

Surely there are better wingers in Ireland than Lowe, he is the very definition of ordinary.

The last time you tried to make this argument he tore the all blacks a new one

[Slick]

As usual in any walk of life some people/teams take the piss and so ridiculous laws are needed.

Anyway, well done Italy, particularly the skipper, but as someone else said this may actually perversely stop some of the chucking out chat

Also, well done the ref, huge day for him and Georgian rugby and he did as well as he couple with all that thrown at him

When has a team ever deliberately conceded a red card to depower a scrum?

It's just not a thing.

Yes, the only time when further sanction is necessary is when the second incident is a contact injury, because it's possible a team might fake that to get uncontested scrums. No team is ever going to deliberately get a player red carded to achieve uncontested scrums - or even yellow for that matter (and if they did they'd already have been punished by, you know, having a player off the pitch...).

Lads, lads, lads, I’m obviously not talking about a red, I’m talking about pretending you have no one to play front row

[Paddington Bear]

The pretending to have no fit front rowers was a Premiership fad for a bit IIRC.

Echo comments on the ref - far and away the best of the weekend

[Uncle fester]

Hard luck Italy.

Thought the red was harsh but if the recipient of the tackle wasn't 6'3", you might have got some leeway.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, the law is fine for injuries. Just makes no sense for reds.

[sturginho]

Hard luck Italy.

Thought the red was harsh but if the recipient of the tackle wasn't 6'3", you might have got some leeway.

File it under penalties that never would have been given the other way round

[sockwithaticket]

The pretending to have no fit front rowers was a Premiership fad for a bit IIRC.

Echo comments on the ref - far and away the best of the weekend

Mostly pre-the extended bench, though.

Uncontested scrums come up very, very rarely these days because the chances of two front rowers in the same position both not being able to take the field are fairly slim. It'll still happen on occasion, but not often.

[Uncle fester]

Yeah, the law is fine for injuries. Just makes no sense for reds.

Not sure I get the rationale.
Going uncontested was a disadvantage to Ireland. Why should that advantage be nullified?

[Uncle fester]

Rules as they stand.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, the law is fine for injuries. Just makes no sense for reds.

Not sure I get the rationale.
Going uncontested was a disadvantage to Ireland. Why should that advantage be nullified?

Because you've already got the one man advantage for the red. Going down to 13 is overkill for me.

Each to their own though.

[Uncle fester]

Lesson to be learned here is that front rows are important. It's why every team travels with an extra hooker. Sub hooker injures themselves in the warm up, you have to concede.

[sturginho]

Crowley should just pick 15 hookers next time

[Lobby]

Yeah, the law is fine for injuries. Just makes no sense for reds.

Not sure I get the rationale.
Going uncontested was a disadvantage to Ireland. Why should that advantage be nullified?

Because you've already got the one man advantage for the red. Going down to 13 is overkill for me.

Each to their own though.

Indeed, the disadvantage to the team reduced to 13 is completely disproportionate to any advantage obtained from uncontested scrums.

The rationale for removing a player if teams are unable to field a full front row is to create a disincentive for teams that might be tempted to cheat and pretend to be injured in order to get uncontested scrums. In that case the penalty considerably outweighs any advantage they might obtain, so they don’t cheat.

However, in this case, Italy didn’t choose to go to uncontested scrums, and weren’t trying to obtain an advantage, so they were in effect being penalized twice for the red card, and Ireland were handed an additional and unwarranted advantage.

Edited to add that I agree that they should be required to replace another forward to bring another front row player on, and be required to play 8 in the uncontested scrums, but removing a second player in these circumstances is a step too far.

[Slick]

Hard luck Italy.

Thought the red was harsh but if the recipient of the tackle wasn't 6'3", you might have got some leeway.

File it under penalties that never would have been given the other way round

There was one by Ireland in the 2nd half that seemed worth a look at. Irish TV decided otherwise of course

[sturginho]

Hard luck Italy.

Thought the red was harsh but if the recipient of the tackle wasn't 6'3", you might have got some leeway.

File it under penalties that never would have been given the other way round

There was one by Ireland in the 2nd half that seemed worth a look at. Irish TV decided otherwise of course

Of course

[Uncle fester]

The law is very harsh but the ref can't overrule it for the craic.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/c ... on/2018/1/

To endorse the integrity of the game and the intention of the laws to protect the game from manipulation of uncontested scrums there must be a consequence for a team responsible for uncontested scrums being called in the mentioned scenario. An example of manipulation of the laws is the circumstances of the Wales v Georgia during the 2017 Autumn Internationals.

[sefton]

Playing 12 men, Ireland are the new Wales.

[Uncle fester]

Filthy Italians. Just can't keep their discipline.

[sturginho]

[Margin__Walker]

The law is very harsh but the ref can't overrule it for the craic.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/c ... on/2018/1/

To endorse the integrity of the game and the intention of the laws to protect the game from manipulation of uncontested scrums there must be a consequence for a team responsible for uncontested scrums being called in the mentioned scenario. An example of manipulation of the laws is the circumstances of the Wales v Georgia during the 2017 Autumn Internationals.

Not saying the ref should have overruled it. It was the correct call.

I just think there should be an amendment to that law.

[Ovals]

The law is very harsh but the ref can't overrule it for the craic.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/c ... on/2018/1/

To endorse the integrity of the game and the intention of the laws to protect the game from manipulation of uncontested scrums there must be a consequence for a team responsible for uncontested scrums being called in the mentioned scenario. An example of manipulation of the laws is the circumstances of the Wales v Georgia during the 2017 Autumn Internationals.

A more sensible rule would be that the offending team must bring on a forward and pack down with 8 in a scrum, while the other team is permitted to pack down with just 7 thereby redressing any perceived advantage that the offending side might have gained.

[Uncle fester]

8 in the backline?
They'd just be tripping over each other.

[fishfoodie]

Maybe revise the Law, so that the offending team doesn't have to be reduced to 13; but they have to put a full 8 in the uncontested scrums, while the other side only has to put in 7 ?

The advantage of having the extra man is maintained; & there's no risk in the scrum.

[Ovals]

Maybe revise the Law, so that the offending team doesn't have to be reduced to 13; but they have to put a full 8 in the uncontested scrums, while the other side only has to put in 7 ?

The advantage of having the extra man is maintained; & there's no risk in the scrum.

I thought that's what I just posted

[fishfoodie]

Maybe revise the Law, so that the offending team doesn't have to be reduced to 13; but they have to put a full 8 in the uncontested scrums, while the other side only has to put in 7 ?

The advantage of having the extra man is maintained; & there's no risk in the scrum.

I thought that's what I just posted

Who has time to read your posts

[Torquemada 1420]

Yeah, the law is fine for injuries. Just makes no sense for reds.

Not sure I get the rationale.
Going uncontested was a disadvantage to Ireland. Why should that advantage be nullified?

It's a clear anomaly and the law was drafted to prevent deliberate attempts to go to uncontested scrums by one side. Italy were not trying to do any such thing unless you think it was a deliberate red card just to force uncontested scrums. A red card should not result in 2 players being sent off. Especially when that would not happen in any other position.

[Tichtheid]

I read elsewhere that the law was brought in after Wasps were down to uncontested scrums a suspiciously large number of times. I have no way of verifying that, but there does have to be a way of deterring any shenanigans.
As per usual this was driven by players and coaches fucking it up, just like they have done to the scrum as a whole.

Anyway, I found this tweet interesting

[Torquemada 1420]

Anyway, I found this tweet interesting

I'm afraid the answer is going to be the usual one when it comes to rugby i.e. the minnows get shafted and the rationale trotted out will be the same old "well they would have lost anyway".

[Slick]

Watching it live my first thought was "well this will level it up a bit" absolutely amazed they didn't seem to look at it and the TV feed decided it wasn't worth showing again. Less surprised about the 2nd bit really.

[Tichtheid]

I'm afraid the answer is going to be the usual one when it comes to rugby i.e. the minnows get shafted and the rationale trotted out will be the same old "well they would have lost anyway".

As a Scotland fan I'm used to both sides of it, we get some pretty appalling refereeing in our favour against Italy at club and international level, and we get some really dodgy stuff against us against more successful sides.
It happens far too regularly for far too long and across referees for it to be accidental.

There was a clear as day shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head in a ruck by the French 5 on Saturday, it wasn't even looked at

[Paddington Bear]

I read elsewhere that the law was brought in after Wasps were down to uncontested scrums a suspiciously large number of times. I have no way of verifying that, but there does have to be a way of deterring any shenanigans.
As per usual this was driven by players and coaches fucking it up, just like they have done to the scrum as a whole.

Anyway, I found this tweet interesting

I can't remember it fully but IIRC the Prem became a bit of a joke for a while in terms of the pisstaking on scrums - to the point where it was basically the only item talked about on commentary for a bit.

Certainly looked a red in real time but shock the host broadcaster didn't look. There needs to be independent control of the replays - this keeps happening and will affect closer games.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'm afraid the answer is going to be the usual one when it comes to rugby i.e. the minnows get shafted and the rationale trotted out will be the same old "well they would have lost anyway".

As a Scotland fan I'm used to both sides of it, we get some pretty appalling refereeing in our favour against Italy at club and international level, and we get some really dodgy stuff against us against more successful sides.

It happens far too regularly for far too long and across referees for it to be accidental.

There was a clear as day shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head in a ruck by the French 5 on Saturday, it wasn't even looked at

Yes. Agree. Australia comes to mind.....

[Tichtheid]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work - everyone does this, I've just done it by pointing out a shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head and perhaps there was an incident of foul play from Scotland that I didn't notice.

The point is that referees are supposed to be helped by TMOs to be as neutral, fair and consistent as possible.

[Paddington Bear]

It's 100% a thing Ticht and I think the vast majority of us recognise it. I don't quite know why it happens or how you reverse it for those games where you see the smaller side pinged at the breakdown in a way that means they barely touch the ball. Foul play is easier to correct.

[JM2K6]

I read elsewhere that the law was brought in after Wasps were down to uncontested scrums a suspiciously large number of times. I have no way of verifying that, but there does have to be a way of deterring any shenanigans.
As per usual this was driven by players and coaches fucking it up, just like they have done to the scrum as a whole.

Anyway, I found this tweet interesting

I can't remember it fully but IIRC the Prem became a bit of a joke for a while in terms of the pisstaking on scrums - to the point where it was basically the only item talked about on commentary for a bit.

Certainly looked a red in real time but shock the host broadcaster didn't look. There needs to be independent control of the replays - this keeps happening and will affect closer games.

Think people are forgetting the very high profile pisstaking by South Africa in the 2009 Lions series, John Smit coming back on when they started losing, etc

[sturginho]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work - everyone does this, I've just done it by pointing out a shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head and perhaps there was an incident of foul play from Scotland that I didn't notice.

The point is that referees are supposed to be helped by TMOs to be as neutral, fair and consistent as possible.

In fairness to the ref I don't think he's a cheat. He actually pinged Ireland a few times in the opening 20 minutes, clearly this could not be allowed to stand so the TMO intervened

[Paddington Bear]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work - everyone does this, I've just done it by pointing out a shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head and perhaps there was an incident of foul play from Scotland that I didn't notice.

The point is that referees are supposed to be helped by TMOs to be as neutral, fair and consistent as possible.

In fairness to the ref I don't think he's a cheat. He actually pinged Ireland a few times in the opening 20 minutes, clearly this could not be allowed to stand so the TMO intervened

I thought the ref had a good game and seemed fair to Italy. Probably no coincidence he's Georgian who have the same grievance. Remember in the Autumn the Georgian skipper telling the ref v France 'I know we're a small team but you have to give us penalties'.

Not his fault if the TMO doesn't call something.

[Slick]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work - everyone does this, I've just done it by pointing out a shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head and perhaps there was an incident of foul play from Scotland that I didn't notice.

The point is that referees are supposed to be helped by TMOs to be as neutral, fair and consistent as possible.

In fairness to the ref I don't think he's a cheat. He actually pinged Ireland a few times in the opening 20 minutes, clearly this could not be allowed to stand so the TMO intervened

As I said earlier, I think he did remarkably well given it was his first big game and a huge moment for Georgian rugby - I don't know why we are not using the best refs possible for the 6N though, but that's a different matter.

re the TMO's, I'm not sure what the actual laws/rules/whatever are around them. The TMO at the Scotland v France U20's game absolutely shafted the ref a few times and put her under unnecessary pressure. There seems to be a lot of talking the ref round, "have another look" etc and I think for the sake of the game if the ref has a quick look, decides there is nothing wrong, then move on.