TMOs, what's the point?

[Torquemada 1420]

Examples from the w/e's games:

1) Ire v Sco
Here the TMO seemed hell bent on getting Sco into trouble to the extent he was clearly trying to bully Barnes into making decisions. Fortunately, Barnes is made of sterner stuff.

2) Fra v Eng
The reverse. Nowell's challenge on Jaminet under current interpretations should have been a red but a yellow at the very least. Here the TMO conned a feeble Peyper into the bizarre decision of the tournie: a pen to Eng.

For me, the TMO's only role should be to ask a ref to consider an incident or to provide footage when requested by the ref. Beyond that, shut up. If the ref has all the same video views available as the TMO, why TF is the TMO being allowed to do the ref's job? We can argue all we like over the Schoeman incident but the only thing that should matter is what the ref thinks and Barnes was clear it was legal.

[sockwithaticket]

It's a team of officials and the goal should be getting the right outcome rather than deference to the ref. There'll be plenty of instances throughout the season, particularly domestically where not every ref is a Barnes, where the TMO does need to push the ref towards a correct decision. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Karl Dickson outlining exactly the criteria for a red a card and then inexplicably deciding on a yellow as he did against Northampton (tail end of last season? I'm sure SaintK or Oxbow will remember). The incident did result in a citing and ban.

TMOs will make mistakes as refs do, but there's no need to relegate them to the role of production assistant.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's a team of officials and the goal should be getting the right outcome rather than deference to the ref. There'll be plenty of instances throughout the season, particularly domestically where not every ref is a Barnes, where the TMO does need to push the ref towards a correct decision. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Karl Dickson outlining exactly the criteria for a red a card and then inexplicably deciding on a yellow as he did against Northampton (tail end of last season? I'm sure SaintK or Oxbow will remember). The incident did result in a citing and ban.

TMOs will make mistakes as refs do, but there's no need to relegate them to the role of production assistant.

If you have to "push the ref" towards the correct decision, then I'd suggest the ref should not be in the role.

[Lobby]

Examples from the w/e's games:

1) Ire v Sco
Here the TMO seemed hell bent on getting Sco into trouble to the extent he was clearly trying to bully Barnes into making decisions. Fortunately, Barnes is made of sterner stuff.

2) Fra v Eng
The reverse. Nowell's challenge on Jaminet under current interpretations should have been a red but a yellow at the very least. Here the TMO conned a feeble Peyper into the bizarre decision of the tournie: a pen to Eng.

For me, the TMO's only role should be to ask a ref to consider an incident or to provide footage when requested by the ref. Beyond that, shut up. If the ref has all the same video views available as the TMO, why TF is the TMO being allowed to do the ref's job? We can argue all we like over the Schoeman incident but the only thing that should matter is what the ref thinks and Barnes was clear it was legal.

There were a few occasions in the Ire Scots match when Barnes dismissed the TMO’s interjections.

In the French match, I think it was Peyper who first noticed the French player running a blocking line, so this wasn’t a case of the TMO trying to change the referee’s mind. Peyper asked to review so that they could check on what sort of card to give Nowell (IIRC his initial comment was that he didn’t think there was any mitigation, so he was clearly thinking red), but when the TMO showed him the replay, Peyper noticed the French blocker and asked the TMO to show him that part again. The two of them concentrated on that part of the replay, discussed it and persuaded each other that the French player was at fault.

I think they got it wrong and Nowell should have been given a yellow, but for me Peyper was always in charge of the conversation, and it was his decision to penalise France, and not the TMO’s.

[not_english]

I am still struggling to see how the tmo could not see that the Scottish player put the ball on the line for the try they were arguing over.

[Slick]

There was one of the U20's games where the female ref, who wasn't having a great game anyway to be fair, was constantly being harassed by the TMO into changing her mind even when she was demonstrably correct. You could see her confidence ebbing away.

I do think a line has been crossed with this. Show the ref the incident and join in the debate, but all too often the incident is predicated by the TMO's judgement and then they try and guide the debate to fit their judgement.

[Slick]

It's a team of officials and the goal should be getting the right outcome rather than deference to the ref. There'll be plenty of instances throughout the season, particularly domestically where not every ref is a Barnes, where the TMO does need to push the ref towards a correct decision. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Karl Dickson outlining exactly the criteria for a red a card and then inexplicably deciding on a yellow as he did against Northampton (tail end of last season? I'm sure SaintK or Oxbow will remember). The incident did result in a citing and ban.

TMOs will make mistakes as refs do, but there's no need to relegate them to the role of production assistant.

If you have to "push the ref" towards the correct decision, then I'd suggest the ref should not be in the role.

and there is a reason the TMO is in a shed in the car park and not on the pitch

[sockwithaticket]

It's a team of officials and the goal should be getting the right outcome rather than deference to the ref. There'll be plenty of instances throughout the season, particularly domestically where not every ref is a Barnes, where the TMO does need to push the ref towards a correct decision. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Karl Dickson outlining exactly the criteria for a red a card and then inexplicably deciding on a yellow as he did against Northampton (tail end of last season? I'm sure SaintK or Oxbow will remember). The incident did result in a citing and ban.

TMOs will make mistakes as refs do, but there's no need to relegate them to the role of production assistant.

If you have to "push the ref" towards the correct decision, then I'd suggest the ref should not be in the role.

While Dickson would certainly appear to be one of those, I think that's a little uncharitable in general. Sometimes seeing something on the big screen in the stadium doesn't actually clear anything up and the TMO has the better view. Also, refs are human, they will make mistakes and sometimes they need a prompt to reconsider their initial interpretation.

Equally, we don't have a surfeit of top quality refs. If we do away with all those that many of us deem not suitable for their roles, we might not have much of a top level game left. That means the more collaborative decision making process where the TMO has direct input is important.

[Uncle fester]

I am still struggling to see how the tmo could not see that the Scottish player put the ball on the line for the try they were arguing over.

Schoemann?
Getting the ball on the line was established quick enough.
The question is whether he crawled forward or was carried by momentum.

[Torquemada 1420]

[ometimes seeing something on the big screen in the stadium doesn't actually clear anything up and the TMO has the better view.

Given my caveat about (big) screen availability, I am unable to think of an instance where that should be the case.

[Torquemada 1420]

Equally, we don't have a surfeit of top quality refs. If we do away with all those that many of us deem not suitable for their roles, we might not have much of a top level game left. That means the more collaborative decision making process where the TMO has direct input is important.

Again, that's a sticking plaster to a problem. The issue is too many bad refs. Fix is surely to improve the standard of refs and not to have a cabal of bad refs** coming to a consensus (**because the pool of reffing includes TMOs!).

[Paddington Bear]

The part that annoys me is the TMO flags something, ref says not to worry then you get the '... let's just take one more look at it'.
Horrendously leading and takes a very strong ref not to just follow along.

[inactionman]

I was actually quite pleased to see the penalty reversed in the England/France game, but thought it was a weird example to run with - I see plenty worse than that in pretty much every game I've watched this season, Penaud was doing no worse than is probably done to him half a dozen times a game.

Maybe the TMO just sees it more clearly as they've got wider angle views, I don't know, but this lazy intentional blocking needs sorting. It's getting silly now.

[GogLais]

I wonder whether it helps having the TMO/ref conversations in the open. Is it the best way of having a full and frank exchange of views?

[Insane_Homer]

I am still struggling to see how the tmo could not see that the Scottish player put the ball on the line for the try they were arguing over.

This! He told Barnes he should take a look at it. He did, decided it was a try and then the TMO talked him out of it...

[Biffer]

Barnes only marginally stopped short of calling the TMO a fucking idiot in my view. Talked him exactly therough the law three or four times like he was talking to a three year old.

[Torquemada 1420]

I was actually quite pleased to see the penalty reversed in the England/France game, but thought it was a weird example to run with - I see plenty worse than that in pretty much every game I've watched this season, Penaud was doing no worse than is probably done to him half a dozen times a game.

Maybe the TMO just sees it more clearly as they've got wider angle views, I don't know, but this lazy intentional blocking needs sorting. It's getting silly now.

Agree but I was struggling to see where Penaud was involved at all. TMO was trying to blame Dupont for pushing Nowell. Penaud effectively came in from FB.

[inactionman]

I was actually quite pleased to see the penalty reversed in the England/France game, but thought it was a weird example to run with - I see plenty worse than that in pretty much every game I've watched this season, Penaud was doing no worse than is probably done to him half a dozen times a game.

Maybe the TMO just sees it more clearly as they've got wider angle views, I don't know, but this lazy intentional blocking needs sorting. It's getting silly now.

Agree but I was struggling to see where Penaud was involved at all. TMO was trying to blame Dupont for pushing Nowell. Penaud effectively came in from FB.

Penaud ran across Nowell, if I recall correctly. The commentators were prattling on about him 'not changing his line' as though making a decision to run a blocking line 10 yards further up the pitch made a blind bit of difference.

I'm a bit sensitive to this offence as Chris Ashton did it to Anthony Watson in a match at the rec, and then had the brass neck to kick off against Watson to make sure he got a red card. Was a pretty sorry sight, even Eddie took umbrage.

[Torquemada 1420]

Penaud ran across Nowell, if I recall correctly. The commentators were prattling on about him 'not changing his line' as though making a decision to run a blocking line 10 yards further up the pitch made a blind bit of difference.

I'm a bit sensitive to this offence as Chris Ashton did it to Anthony Watson in a match at the rec, and then had the brass neck to kick off against Watson to make sure he got a red card. Was a pretty sorry sight, even Eddie took umbrage.

ITV player is sh*te so it took me some time to unpick it last night and Penaud "runs" (jogs more like) a typical defensive line. Thing is Nowell is past him before he clatters Jaminet. It's not like Penaud (or Dupont) pushed Nowell into Jaminet. Nowell decided not to jump and turned his back. I can't think of any manner in which this does not breach the requirement for the "tackler" to ensure responsibility for safety. There is a thin (very thin) argument for a penalty against Penaud for obstruction (because, as you say, this is routine and not even close to a bad example) but that doesn't then strike off Nowell's actions.

I am off topic here because the incident itself belongs on the match thread. This is really about what TF TMOs are doing and the inconsistencies of it all. Recall Brace-gate where there the TMO decided to ignore multiple Eng offences which decided the game?

[not_english]

I am still struggling to see how the tmo could not see that the Scottish player put the ball on the line for the try they were arguing over.

Schoemann?
Getting the ball on the line was established quick enough.
The question is whether he crawled forward or was carried by momentum.

No he obviously placed it on the line with the first movement, I think any crawling forward that was up for discussion happened after then. But it didn't matter, because he had obviously placed it on the line initially.

[Big D]

Barnes only marginally stopped short of calling the TMO a fucking idiot in my view. Talked him exactly therough the law three or four times like he was talking to a three year old.

Very good and strong reffing.

Barnes is mostly a very good ref and could have folded to the TMO but didn't.

[Slick]

Barnes only marginally stopped short of calling the TMO a fucking idiot in my view. Talked him exactly therough the law three or four times like he was talking to a three year old.

Very good and strong reffing.

Barnes is mostly a very good ref and could have folded to the TMO but didn't.

You could hear him coaching the ref team the whole way through, it was very impressive

[SaintK]

Barnes only marginally stopped short of calling the TMO a fucking idiot in my view. Talked him exactly therough the law three or four times like he was talking to a three year old.

Very good and strong reffing.

Barnes is mostly a very good ref and could have folded to the TMO but didn't.

You could hear him coaching the ref team the whole way through, it was very impressive

He shouldn't have to coach them. The two AR's Dickson and Ridley are already fully fledged international referees. Don't recognise the TMO Stuart Terheegue mind you and not come across him in the Premiership before

[Torquemada 1420]

He shouldn't have to coach them. The two AR's Dickson and Ridley are already fully fledged international referees. Don't recognise the TMO Stuart Terheegue mind you and not come across him in the Premiership before

Exactly. It came across as a teacher chastising a naughty child. "Now Timmy, tell the class what the rules are about putting our hands up."
Rugby makes an arse of itself to the layman it's clear the officials can't agree on the laws.

[Slick]

He shouldn't have to coach them. The two AR's Dickson and Ridley are already fully fledged international referees. Don't recognise the TMO Stuart Terheegue mind you and not come across him in the Premiership before

Exactly. It came across as a teacher chastising a naughty child. "Now Timmy, tell the class what the rules are about putting our hands up."
Rugby makes an arse of itself to the layman it's clear the officials can't agree on the laws.

I think both those comments are a bit harsh. He was just making sure they were ready, giving them support, letting them know what he wanted them looking for. I thought it was an excellent bit of management from the guy that gets the shit if it goes wrong

[TheFrog]

I was actually quite pleased to see the penalty reversed in the England/France game, but thought it was a weird example to run with - I see plenty worse than that in pretty much every game I've watched this season, Penaud was doing no worse than is probably done to him half a dozen times a game.

Maybe the TMO just sees it more clearly as they've got wider angle views, I don't know, but this lazy intentional blocking needs sorting. It's getting silly now.

I had mixed feelings about thos Peyper decision.

First, I tend to agree that he made the right decision and I found it deliciously ironic because he was initially looking at carding Nowell. Penaud did obstruct so there was a penalty against Penaud.

I agree with you that this happens a lot in international game, in fact it feels as if it is practiced at training. Refs tend to ignore it and in fact Peyper had ignored a few other blocks before.

Then I also had the feeling that Penaud was not the cause of Nowell doing what he did. He did not push Nowell onto Jaminet. In fact, for the short time he was on the pitch, Nowell spent his time trying to bump Jaminet rather than competing for the ball. So while I agree there was a case for a penalty against Penaud, I was convinced that Nowell deliberately was trying to cause Jaminet problems under the high and that this particular attempt was dangerous and deserved at least a penalty.

[JM2K6]

I was actually quite pleased to see the penalty reversed in the England/France game, but thought it was a weird example to run with - I see plenty worse than that in pretty much every game I've watched this season, Penaud was doing no worse than is probably done to him half a dozen times a game.

Maybe the TMO just sees it more clearly as they've got wider angle views, I don't know, but this lazy intentional blocking needs sorting. It's getting silly now.

Agree but I was struggling to see where Penaud was involved at all. TMO was trying to blame Dupont for pushing Nowell. Penaud effectively came in from FB.

Penaud ran across Nowell, if I recall correctly. The commentators were prattling on about him 'not changing his line' as though making a decision to run a blocking line 10 yards further up the pitch made a blind bit of difference.

I'm a bit sensitive to this offence as Chris Ashton did it to Anthony Watson in a match at the rec, and then had the brass neck to kick off against Watson to make sure he got a red card. Was a pretty sorry sight, even Eddie took umbrage.

It's an odd one. I think Nowell was lucky here. It was never a red, though, given he lands on his back and side.

From the fairly low resolution replay ITV have up, you can see that between them, Dupont and Penaud have converged and essentially closed off any chance of Nowell having a clean run at the ball. He cannons off Dupont, clips Penaud, then runs into Jaminet. It's not legal play by France, but IMO Nowell's actions are still dangerous here and that should take precedent. He's kinda aiming for Dupont all the time and I'm not convinced he had no alternative but to sprint straight into the back of those players and then through Jaminet.

[TheFrog]

Agree but I was struggling to see where Penaud was involved at all. TMO was trying to blame Dupont for pushing Nowell. Penaud effectively came in from FB.

Penaud ran across Nowell, if I recall correctly. The commentators were prattling on about him 'not changing his line' as though making a decision to run a blocking line 10 yards further up the pitch made a blind bit of difference.

I'm a bit sensitive to this offence as Chris Ashton did it to Anthony Watson in a match at the rec, and then had the brass neck to kick off against Watson to make sure he got a red card. Was a pretty sorry sight, even Eddie took umbrage.

It's an odd one. I think Nowell was lucky here. It was never a red, though, given he lands on his back and side.

From the fairly low resolution replay ITV have up, you can see that between them, Dupont and Penaud have converged and essentially closed off any chance of Nowell having a clean run at the ball. He cannons off Dupont, clips Penaud, then runs into Jaminet. It's not legal play by France, but IMO Nowell's actions are still dangerous here and that should take precedent. He's kinda aiming for Dupont all the time and I'm not convinced he had no alternative but to sprint straight into the back of those players and then through Jaminet.

Yes, give a penalty against Penaud to make it clear he can do this, and then turn the penalty against England because Nowell made no effort to protect Jaminet.

[Prembore]

Very good and strong reffing.

Barnes is mostly a very good ref and could have folded to the TMO but didn't.

You could hear him coaching the ref team the whole way through, it was very impressive

He shouldn't have to coach them. The two AR's Dickson and Ridley are already fully fledged international referees. Don't recognise the TMO Stuart Terheegue mind you and not come across him in the Premiership before

He's TMO quite frequently in the prem. He was never a prem ref but was very much the senior touch judge for a number of years before hanging up his flag. He does tend to pipe up quite a lot, treating us all to those dulcet Brummie tones.

[Ymx]

Why doesn’t the TMO just show the ref the replays so the ref can see them and make the call.

Why does the TMO even need to present an opinion?

[notfatcat]

Why doesn’t the TMO just show the ref the replays so the ref can see them and make the call.

Why does the TMO even need to present an opinion?

This could work. Considering TMOs are sitting there in front of a hi def screen they are terrible at their job at times. It can be quite bizarre to witness.

[Guy Smiley]

Agree but I was struggling to see where Penaud was involved at all. TMO was trying to blame Dupont for pushing Nowell. Penaud effectively came in from FB.

Penaud ran across Nowell, if I recall correctly. The commentators were prattling on about him 'not changing his line' as though making a decision to run a blocking line 10 yards further up the pitch made a blind bit of difference.

I'm a bit sensitive to this offence as Chris Ashton did it to Anthony Watson in a match at the rec, and then had the brass neck to kick off against Watson to make sure he got a red card. Was a pretty sorry sight, even Eddie took umbrage.

It's an odd one. I think Nowell was lucky here. It was never a red, though, given he lands on his back and side.

From the fairly low resolution replay ITV have up, you can see that between them, Dupont and Penaud have converged and essentially closed off any chance of Nowell having a clean run at the ball. He cannons off Dupont, clips Penaud, then runs into Jaminet. It's not legal play by France, but IMO Nowell's actions are still dangerous here and that should take precedent. He's kinda aiming for Dupont all the time and I'm not convinced he had no alternative but to sprint straight into the back of those players and then through Jaminet.

Watched the game live with a bit of a hangover. Seedy.

Both of us watching felt it was a sensible decision in real time but we didn't replay it. Encouraging for me that Peyper was prepared to look around the incident and not just reflexively card it.

[weegie01]

Why doesn’t the TMO just show the ref the replays so the ref can see them and make the call.

Why does the TMO even need to present an opinion?

Because quite often the TMO has a much higher resolution of picture to look at compared to what the ref can see on the big screen. I have heard refs say they can't see enough so have to go with the TMO for that reason.

[Ymx]

TMO can just zoom it then.

[petej]

Generally TMO's are decent and ref's go through the decision making process clearly and stating why they have made the decision. Compared to premiership football refereeing and VAR it is superb and rugby officials are brilliant.

The pompous idiot who reffed Aston villa Vs arsenal at the weekend booked xhaka for his 1 foul (and he had commit just the one foul by that point) while indicating that he was being booked for multiple fouls which was very funny.

[Openside]

I am still struggling to see how the tmo could not see that the Scottish player put the ball on the line for the try they were arguing over.

In real time I didn’t think it was a try as he seemed to scrabble over however the replay showed clearly is was one extension after he was grounded. Although even then there wasn’t an angle that showed the ball was actually on the line until after first contact

[Openside]

Also I think Peyper got the Nowell thing spot on, he was blocked/knocked by two French players who steered him into Jaminets path.

[Niegs]

Why doesn’t the TMO just show the ref the replays so the ref can see them and make the call.

Why does the TMO even need to present an opinion?

Because quite often the TMO has a much higher resolution of picture to look at compared to what the ref can see on the big screen. I have heard refs say they can't see enough so have to go with the TMO for that reason.

And it'd potentially take much longer!

"... okay, down, down, down ... focus on the elbow ... now enhance... "



An alternative is to copy League (why not, given Union copies all their innovations). Ref makes declaration; if uncertain, asks for video ref and turns over the final decision to that person. With Union's money, put two in the booth to ensure it's not just one person with blinkers on.

[I like neeps]

TMOs get involved too often and they take too long to make decisions showing multiple slowed down angles.

Rugby would be better if the TMO was time limited e.g. if you can't decide within 3 reviews you stick with the onfield.

[Torquemada 1420]

Why doesn’t the TMO just show the ref the replays so the ref can see them and make the call.

Why does the TMO even need to present an opinion?

That's exactly my point. The only time the TMO should be voicing an opinion is where the ref cannot see (for whatever reason) all the views available to the TMO.