Alternative history - what if the UK/empire were neutral in WW2?

[Hugo]

I'm sure some of the avid historians on here are well studied on this subject.

If the UK at the very least remained neutral in WW2 or on the more extreme end of the scale collaborated with Germany would the outcome of the war have been much different?

Could the war have all but wrapped up by 1940 with Germany dominating continental Europe and the UK left relatively unscathed? Under such circumstances could Hitler have had a realistic chance of defeating the Soviets and then would this have prevented the Cold War? Would the US have been forced to join the war sooner?

Finally, has any historian made the argument that what the UK and empire gave up in terms of lives, destruction of cities etc.was too great a sacrifice? That defeating Germany came at too great a price?

Please only sensible answers/posts.

[Big Nipper]

What if Hitler was actually a robot from the future

[Biffer]

You'd have to go further back and change the Japan Germany axis alliance. Germany, in 1939, was allied with a country attacking and occupying British possessions.

Fundamentally though, Hitler didn't have the patience to play it out properly. He would still have attacked Russia in 1941, still rushed to Moscow, still lost against the USSR, imo.

If Hitler had played a smarter card; to support Britain against oriental aggression (Japan) and offered assistance in defending the Empire possessions of Britain alongside protecting the (Vichy) French possessions in indochina, British and indeed American neutrality in Europe, with a presentation of resisting the communist threat, might have worked out for the Nazis.

[Biffer]

If you’re interested in alternate history, then alternatehistory.com is worth a look

[Hugo]

You'd have to go further back and change the Japan Germany axis alliance. Germany, in 1939, was allied with a country attacking and occupying British possessions.

Fundamentally though, Hitler didn't have the patience to play it out properly. He would still have attacked Russia in 1941, still rushed to Moscow, still lost against the USSR, imo.

If Hitler had played a smarter card; to support Britain against oriental aggression (Japan) and offered assistance in defending the Empire possessions of Britain alongside protecting the (Vichy) French possessions in indochina, British and indeed American neutrality in Europe, with a presentation of resisting the communist threat, might have worked out for the Nazis.

Thanks Biffer. Fascinating points.

Its always interested me to consider just how impetuous and impatient Hitler was given that he was 50 at the start of WW2. Despite his character flaws you would think someone at that age would have had enough life experience and wisdom to be more pragmatic and calculating.

[Hugo]

If you’re interested in alternate history, then alternatehistory.com is worth a look

Thanks Biffer, I will check that out.

[Ellafan]

Eventually Hitler declares war on the USA in about early 1942 when Japan attacks it. USA obliterates the Empire of Japan in short order, and supplies the rump Russian state up the trans siberian to get the German's attention.

3 years later, a B29 flying from Iceland drops an A bomb on Berlin.

Game over.

[Lemoentjie]

I don't think anyone is particularly sure of Hitler's ultimate plans for the British Empire and the USA. Hitler has many peculiarities, for example he predicted that in the future there would be a 'clash of civilisations' between the Europeans and the numerically superior Asians. Things like that seemed to take a pan-European (or at least not just 'German') view, which isn't what you would expect.

Hitler very admired and feared the USA and British Empire, but thought they'd been taken over by 'international capital'. I think it's pretty well known that he at least wanted to keep the structure of the British Empire, and the USA would be impossible to defeat with military, so maybe he would have just supported fascist movements there, and been relatively friendly.

Interestingly, a key moment in Hitler's life was when he was escorting some captured American soldiers in WW1. He asked the prisoners their names, and found a large number of them had German last names. This fed to Hitler's idea where he viewed the Germans who emigrated as being superior to those who stayed in Germany. This was also applied as far back as the Anglo-Saxon invasions of England of course.

I actually think the far more interesting question is what happens if the British Empire doesn't join WW1, or what if Gavrilo Princip never killed Archduke.

[Lemoentjie]

Thanks Biffer. Fascinating points.

Its always interested me to consider just how impetuous and impatient Hitler was given that he was 50 at the start of WW2. Despite his character flaws you would think someone at that age would have had enough life experience and wisdom to be more pragmatic and calculating.

It's only quite recently been more widely known how extensive his drug usage was.

[Hugo]

I don't think anyone is particularly sure of Hitler's ultimate plans for the British Empire and the USA. Hitler has many peculiarities, for example he predicted that in the future there would be a 'clash of civilisations' between the Europeans and the numerically superior Asians. Things like that seemed to take a pan-European (or at least not just 'German') view, which isn't what you would expect.

Hitler very admired and feared the USA and British Empire, but thought they'd been taken over by 'international capital'. I think it's pretty well known that he at least wanted to keep the structure of the British Empire, and the USA would be impossible to defeat with military, so maybe he would have just supported fascist movements there, and been relatively friendly.

Interestingly, a key moment in Hitler's life was when he was escorting some captured American soldiers in WW1. He asked the prisoners their names, and found a large number of them had German last names. This fed to Hitler's idea where he viewed the Germans who emigrated as being superior to those who stayed in Germany. This was also applied as far back as the Anglo-Saxon invasions of England of course.

I actually think the far more interesting question is what happens if the British Empire doesn't join WW1, or what if Gavrilo Princip never killed Archduke.

Interesting post.
On the bold I was actually reading up on this recently, this was a view that was held in Germany since the tail end of the 19th century, I think the term "yellow peril" was first used by Kaiser Wilhelm.

[Kawazaki]

Thanks Biffer. Fascinating points.

Its always interested me to consider just how impetuous and impatient Hitler was given that he was 50 at the start of WW2. Despite his character flaws you would think someone at that age would have had enough life experience and wisdom to be more pragmatic and calculating.

It's only quite recently been more widely known how extensive his drug usage was.

Slight deviation; Hitler's drug use was extensive but not a patch on JFK <20 years later. Listened to the 'Very Presidential' podcast on him recently and it really isn't very complimentary about him at all. Basically, we're all very lucky to be alive.

[C69]

Thanks Biffer. Fascinating points.

Its always interested me to consider just how impetuous and impatient Hitler was given that he was 50 at the start of WW2. Despite his character flaws you would think someone at that age would have had enough life experience and wisdom to be more pragmatic and calculating.

It's only quite recently been more widely known how extensive his drug usage was.

Slight deviation; Hitler's drug use was extensive but not a patch on JFK <20 years later. Listened to the 'Very Presidential' podcast on him recently and it really isn't very complimentary about him at all. Basically, we're all very lucky to be alive.

Indeed Emgee
As was Chruchill's dependency on booze and speed etc etc
His ability to stay up and control his mood was legendery and fuelled by numerous drugs.

[Zig]

The fate of the British Empire was sealed when it entered WW1.

[Plim]

Other than Italy - until 1943 - and the USSR - until 1941 - no other European states formed any military pacts with Nazi Germany. And the US would never have done.

No countries, other than the neutrals - who were each in their own way morally dubious anyway (even fascist Spain remained neutral) - would ever have signed up to Hitler’s aims because it would have been the death knell for all of them. The ‘what if’ question isn’t really sensible.

[CrazyIslander]

Had Britain remained neutral then Germany would've ruled mainland Europe. There would've been a peace deal in place before the Americans got involved. Thus, American govt won't be able yo sell it to the public that they needed to go to war in Europe. Germany would've defeated Russia.
The fact Britain was still fighting was the pretext for American intervention.

[Scottish Blackface]

I'm sure some of the avid historians on here are well studied on this subject.

If the UK at the very least remained neutral in WW2 or on the more extreme end of the scale collaborated with Germany would the outcome of the war have been much different?

Could the war have all but wrapped up by 1940 with Germany dominating continental Europe and the UK left relatively unscathed? Under such circumstances could Hitler have had a realistic chance of defeating the Soviets and then would this have prevented the Cold War? Would the US have been forced to join the war sooner?

Finally, has any historian made the argument that what the UK and empire gave up in terms of lives, destruction of cities etc.was too great a sacrifice? That defeating Germany came at too great a price?

Please only sensible answers/posts.

Big question is did France also remain neutral in this scenario.
If so Germany could have rolled into Russia with British oil and an intact army. Russia likely would have taken terms since it had no industrial support and lost the baltic states and Ukraine as well as having the communist replaced in Moscow..

[eldanielfire]

By the way, this is an excellent YouTube channel about what Alternative Histories would be like:

https://www.youtube.com/c/AlternateHistoryHub/videos