Woodward on Jones

Where goats go to escape
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Kawazaki
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Thought this better off outside the England thread.

It's from the Daily Mail so a bit of a nightmare to cut and paste, I've removed most of the chaff.

I have given myself 48 hours to reflect on the Barbarians game to ensure I was not over-reacting, but England really should have taken the law into their own hands when the visitors turned the match into a farce.

I was disappointed with George Kruis for allowing it to happen, especially his antics around his backheel conversion. I cannot imagine Phil Bennett laughing at that.

It was also wrong to allow French coach Fabien Galthie and other French players to basically do anything they wanted at Twickenham. It says much about this England team.

To concede 50 points against an opponent with 14 men was more than poor, but to allow the showboating said much about the team. Something had to happen and it did not.

Can you imagine New Zealand or South Africa letting a Barbarians team come to Auckland or Pretoria and take the mickey?

But does anybody at the RFU really care — or more importantly, understand the relevance — or was this just another game, another day out, a chance to boost the finances?

A senior rugby figure — a director of rugby — to sort situations out like this is long overdue. Giving Eddie Jones the keys to Twickenham is holding England back now in so many ways.

Some of the rhetoric Jones continually comes out with is just plain daft and at this level it doesn't help. I saw some of his quotes about the squad for the upcoming tour of Australia and that it was a 'good mixture of youth and experience'.

It should be absolutely nothing about that whatsoever. It's about picking your best starting XV, but under Jones we have lost that.

Pick your side based on the best team to represent England, nothing to do with age or experience — it really is not that difficult if you know what your best XV is.

But no one knows what the best England team is and this seeps into the players' mindset. England have gone from close to the top of the world in Japan 2019 to, at best, a workmanlike team who few currently respect.

Starters, finishers, apprentices — we cannot even name a captain until we get to Australia!

Winning is the only thing that matters. Selection is an art not a science. Jones has lost the knack of spotting individuals who are 'wow' players — the turnover is of concern given the quality at his disposal.

You have to have the mindset that the next game is going to be your last as coach, it really does focus the mind.

I used to think about how many of my players would get in the best team in the world. If I could get to six then you knew you'd be in a decent position, and from there the coaching and style of play becomes straightforward.

In Olympic terms, they talk about the podium and whether an athlete is gold, silver or bronze. You want gold medal players who are the best in the world in their positions and we do have a few of these, but largely in the forwards.

Let's look at the final game of the Six Nations against France and serious problems were clear before kick-off. We could have played that game 100 times and lost 100 times. We were so far behind them, even at full strength.

We are behind the Southern Hemisphere again and now we're behind France and Ireland too. We can catch up very quickly but we've got to get it together now and stop all this ridiculous rhetoric. Winning is everything. It is the only thing Jones should be judged on.

The six players on the 'podium' in the forwards are Ellis Genge, Kyle Sinckler when fit, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes (as a second row), Billy Vunipola and Tom Curry.

England have to find out who is our starting hooker and blindside flanker and the pack is very good indeed, strong enough to go to a World Cup with total confidence, even relish.

But when you move on to the backs, it's a different kettle of fish. I've no issues with Danny Care returning, as long as Eddie can say he's the best in England.

I don't care if he's 50 or 18, he's got to be the best to leapfrog those other players. We have Marcus Smith and Owen Farrell at 10 and for me it is either/or, but not together under any circumstances.

They are both 'podium' No 10s but Farrell is not a 12. If the World Cup was this weekend I would have no hesitation in starting Owen at 10 and as captain and cannot understand how he attracts so much flak.

Smith's day will come, but is he the best at the moment? We seem to take comfort in the number of good players we have but it is not numbers, it is world-class players in your starting XV that counts.

Where England are all over the place is at 9, 11, 12, 13 and 14. We don't know who the best players are for international rugby.

Freddie Steward is a gold player but at full back, not on the wing. Even Manu Tuilagi is not on the podium as we've not seen enough of him over the last two years.

I'd build my back division around Steward at full back — he's that good — but can someone in the England camp start saying so and loudly? England's problems have reinforced the need for a director of rugby at the RFU.

Such a position has been essential for the last 25 years. We've had a series of chief executives who think they're qualified for the role, but in truth have not played rugby since their schooldays.

Bill Sweeney is a good guy but his biggest weakness is he's a fan. He loves being part of the team. That is a big mistake. A proper director of rugby supports the head coach but leaves him with zero excuses.

England are in a corner now and if it were to go wrong in Australia, they would be in a real hole which will take some fixing with just over a year to the World Cup.
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Paddington Bear
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A senior rugby figure — a director of rugby — to sort situations out like this is long overdue
Anyone you have in mind there Clive?
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Kawazaki
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Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:29 pm
A senior rugby figure — a director of rugby — to sort situations out like this is long overdue
Anyone you have in mind there Clive?

TBF to him, I think even he realises that that time is well past.
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JM2K6
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Genge and Sinckler as best in the world in their positions? Okay

not sure I'd even have Genge as the best loosehead in England, and there's comfortably a handful of better international tightheads around the place than Sinckler at the moment even pre-injury. But then you could make big arguments for George and Marler, so whatever.

Billy let himself down at international level for quite a period of time. His club form at the end of the season was phenomenal and that's very encouraging, but let's see what happens for England before we start anointing him as a possible world's best 8 maybe
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JM2K6
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Anyway, aside from that - good point regarding England 'letting' the Barbarians take the piss. IMO this is a direct consequence of Eddie very clearly not giving a fuck and treating this as something that gets in the way of training. If he doesn't care, how on earth are the players going to?
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Not my fight of course but what's Woodward suggesting England should have done? Twatted Kruis for backheeling a conversion? Surely Barbarians games used to be ones where a bit of showboating (whatever that means) was allowed.
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Paddington Bear
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Why should anyone give a fuck about a BaaBaas game? When was the last time a professional team did?
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Ymx
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GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:56 pm Not my fight of course but what's Woodward suggesting England should have done? Twatted Kruis for backheeling a conversion? Surely Barbarians games used to be ones where a bit of showboating (whatever that means) was allowed.
Exactly
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JM2K6
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GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:56 pm Not my fight of course but what's Woodward suggesting England should have done? Twatted Kruis for backheeling a conversion? Surely Barbarians games used to be ones where a bit of showboating (whatever that means) was allowed.
You can show some fight without actually starting a fight.
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Lobby
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It might be worth recalling that England played the Barbarians 4 times during Woodwards tenure as coach, and only won once.

The three games England lost were not close either. The Barbarians won 43-29 in 2001, 49-36 in 2003 and 32-12 in 2004.

Like Jones, Woodward largely picked second string sides filled with fringe players, and used the games more as trials. He certainly didn’t seem to think they were important games to win back then.
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Kawazaki
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Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:00 pm Why should anyone give a fuck about a BaaBaas game? When was the last time a professional team did?


The BaaBaas last Sunday.
GogLais
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:17 pm
GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:56 pm Not my fight of course but what's Woodward suggesting England should have done? Twatted Kruis for backheeling a conversion? Surely Barbarians games used to be ones where a bit of showboating (whatever that means) was allowed.
You can show some fight without actually starting a fight.
If he’s saying England didn’t compete hard enough generally then ok, maybe he has a point but that’s different from doing something about a light-hearted conversion.
sockwithaticket
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I was disappointed with George Kruis for allowing it to happen, especially his antics around his backheel conversion. I cannot imagine Phil Bennett laughing at that.
Chalk the Barbarians up as another element of modern rugby Clive's barely engaged with in the last twenty years. Plenty of recent Baabaas games where they pull out some ridiculous trick plays and try stuff you just wouldn't in a regular match. The point for them is fun and to entertain the crowd. There's nothing wrong with Kruis doing something a little silly in his final professional game. I liked it.
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sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:45 pm
I was disappointed with George Kruis for allowing it to happen, especially his antics around his backheel conversion. I cannot imagine Phil Bennett laughing at that.
Chalk the Barbarians up as another element of modern rugby Clive's barely engaged with in the last twenty years. Plenty of recent Baabaas games where they pull out some ridiculous trick plays and try stuff you just wouldn't in a regular match. The point for them is fun and to entertain the crowd. There's nothing wrong with Kruis doing something a little silly in his final professional game. I liked it.
Yes, had it been Wales I’d have been annoyed at the tries we conceded. The fact that a 4 (?) and not a 10 converted them wouldn’t make things any worse.
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JM2K6
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GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:51 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:45 pm
I was disappointed with George Kruis for allowing it to happen, especially his antics around his backheel conversion. I cannot imagine Phil Bennett laughing at that.
Chalk the Barbarians up as another element of modern rugby Clive's barely engaged with in the last twenty years. Plenty of recent Baabaas games where they pull out some ridiculous trick plays and try stuff you just wouldn't in a regular match. The point for them is fun and to entertain the crowd. There's nothing wrong with Kruis doing something a little silly in his final professional game. I liked it.
Yes, had it been Wales I’d have been annoyed at the tries we conceded. The fact that a 4 (?) and not a 10 converted them wouldn’t make things any worse.
Trick plays and things like that coming from the BaaBaas are fine. Being humiliated at home and having it really rubbed in with the showboating should have provoked some kind of response from England. It didn't. That's a valid point to be making.
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:02 pm
GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:51 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:45 pm

Chalk the Barbarians up as another element of modern rugby Clive's barely engaged with in the last twenty years. Plenty of recent Baabaas games where they pull out some ridiculous trick plays and try stuff you just wouldn't in a regular match. The point for them is fun and to entertain the crowd. There's nothing wrong with Kruis doing something a little silly in his final professional game. I liked it.
Yes, had it been Wales I’d have been annoyed at the tries we conceded. The fact that a 4 (?) and not a 10 converted them wouldn’t make things any worse.
Trick plays and things like that coming from the BaaBaas are fine. Being humiliated at home and having it really rubbed in with the showboating should have provoked some kind of response from England. It didn't. That's a valid point to be making.
It is and Clive goes on to make it, but in the bit I've quoted it sounds like he's saying Kruis was out of order for doing it in the first place.
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JM2K6
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sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:19 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:02 pm
GogLais wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:51 pm

Yes, had it been Wales I’d have been annoyed at the tries we conceded. The fact that a 4 (?) and not a 10 converted them wouldn’t make things any worse.
Trick plays and things like that coming from the BaaBaas are fine. Being humiliated at home and having it really rubbed in with the showboating should have provoked some kind of response from England. It didn't. That's a valid point to be making.
It is and Clive goes on to make it, but in the bit I've quoted it sounds like he's saying Kruis was out of order for doing it in the first place.
He's definitely saying that.

Thing is, I'm sure there's plenty of players and coaches who would be fuming at that had it happened to them. Johnson would've been seething. Exhibition game or not, it was a total pisstake. It's not out of order - Clive is wrong there - but it really is rubbing it in in a way I've not really seen very often from someone not called Will Greenwood or Carlos Spencer
inactionman
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JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:29 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:19 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:02 pm

Trick plays and things like that coming from the BaaBaas are fine. Being humiliated at home and having it really rubbed in with the showboating should have provoked some kind of response from England. It didn't. That's a valid point to be making.
It is and Clive goes on to make it, but in the bit I've quoted it sounds like he's saying Kruis was out of order for doing it in the first place.
He's definitely saying that.

Thing is, I'm sure there's plenty of players and coaches who would be fuming at that had it happened to them. Johnson would've been seething. Exhibition game or not, it was a total pisstake. It's not out of order - Clive is wrong there - but it really is rubbing it in in a way I've not really seen very often from someone not called Will Greenwood or Carlos Spencer
A mate of mine played for Walcot firsts in Bath, a pretty good standard so he should know better, and he backheeled a conversion. After the match he had to go to hospital for stitches after a boot in a ruck, and for reasons that escape me he didn't think the two things were connected.

There is showboating that demonstrates a mastery of a skill and there's showboating that just shows contempt for opposition. Given the context I'm not sure how Kruis intended it, but I'm pretty sure I can predict how the likes of Martin Johnson would have taken it. Not well, to put it mildly.
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Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:00 pm Why should anyone give a fuck about a BaaBaas game? When was the last time a professional team did?
They sold some tickets, they sold some merchandise and sold some beer, job done, next.

And just this short period on in time I already couldn't name either starting XV (if only in part because I forget it was even on and didn't bother watching after the fact)

Why the Mail keep paying Clive to write a column saying Clive should have a well paid senior job in the RFU I don't know, there cannot be anyone in the RFU who needs to know that who doesn't. I'm sure if they wanted t give Clive a call they will, but somehow I can't imagine Eddie or the next coach, or the one after wanting Clive to pop along with some ideas on thing to be done. And we've already had the learning experience of paying Rob Andrew a huge sum for doing sweet FA
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I think England have got just 14 matches now before the RWC starts. Wasting the 15th match seems a complete waste to me. Fabien Galthie and Shaun Edwards certainly didn't waste the opportunity for the benefit of the French team.
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It's not a waste of a prep match it's irrelevant whatever had happened. For instance had England won by 38 points it wouldn't speak to anything positive heading into the summer tour, 6N and World Cup, so this bad defeat says nothing negative.

You could say some players didn't advance a case, but they were unlikely to anyway. Really it's just there to raise some money, which isn't unimportant, but trying to read much into it vis a vis rugby is a waste of time. Jumping up and down having shat your pants demanding the world take note of your disappointment is just an embarrassing waste of time
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No one has ever commented on a BaaBaas match except to say 'I am at the BaaBaas game, fancy a pint?'. There's plenty to criticise Eddie for without pretending Sunday meant anything either way, and had we stuck 50 past them you'd be making exactly this point.
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Kawazaki
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Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:35 pm It's not a waste of a prep match it's irrelevant whatever had happened. For instance had England won by 38 points it wouldn't speak to anything positive heading into the summer tour, 6N and World Cup, so this bad defeat says nothing negative.

You could say some players didn't advance a case, but they were unlikely to anyway. Really it's just there to raise some money, which isn't unimportant, but trying to read much into it vis a vis rugby is a waste of time. Jumping up and down having shat your pants demanding the world take note of your disappointment is just an embarrassing waste of time


It gives you an insight into how Jones selects, prepares and motivates a team. If he can't make an EQP care about winning or losing in an England shirt then he's the not the right man for the job is he. This is all on Jones, these are his picks, his coaches, his environment after 6 years. That match represents what a Jones environment produces. It's garbage.
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Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:42 pm No one has ever commented on a BaaBaas match except to say 'I am at the BaaBaas game, fancy a pint?'. There's plenty to criticise Eddie for without pretending Sunday meant anything either way, and had we stuck 50 past them you'd be making exactly this point.
It's a bit like playing Italy in that you can't necessarily advance your place in the pecking order as a player in this games, but you can certainly lose standing.
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inactionman wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:29 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:19 pm

It is and Clive goes on to make it, but in the bit I've quoted it sounds like he's saying Kruis was out of order for doing it in the first place.
He's definitely saying that.

Thing is, I'm sure there's plenty of players and coaches who would be fuming at that had it happened to them. Johnson would've been seething. Exhibition game or not, it was a total pisstake. It's not out of order - Clive is wrong there - but it really is rubbing it in in a way I've not really seen very often from someone not called Will Greenwood or Carlos Spencer
A mate of mine played for Walcot firsts in Bath, a pretty good standard so he should know better, and he backheeled a conversion. After the match he had to go to hospital for stitches after a boot in a ruck, and for reasons that escape me he didn't think the two things were connected.

There is showboating that demonstrates a mastery of a skill and there's showboating that just shows contempt for opposition. Given the context I'm not sure how Kruis intended it, but I'm pretty sure I can predict how the likes of Martin Johnson would have taken it. Not well, to put it mildly.

What your mate did was unsporting but I think its the type of crowdpleasing thing you expect to see at a Barbarians match.
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Hugo wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:04 pm
inactionman wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:29 pm

He's definitely saying that.

Thing is, I'm sure there's plenty of players and coaches who would be fuming at that had it happened to them. Johnson would've been seething. Exhibition game or not, it was a total pisstake. It's not out of order - Clive is wrong there - but it really is rubbing it in in a way I've not really seen very often from someone not called Will Greenwood or Carlos Spencer
A mate of mine played for Walcot firsts in Bath, a pretty good standard so he should know better, and he backheeled a conversion. After the match he had to go to hospital for stitches after a boot in a ruck, and for reasons that escape me he didn't think the two things were connected.

There is showboating that demonstrates a mastery of a skill and there's showboating that just shows contempt for opposition. Given the context I'm not sure how Kruis intended it, but I'm pretty sure I can predict how the likes of Martin Johnson would have taken it. Not well, to put it mildly.

What your mate did was unsporting but I think its the type of crowdpleasing thing you expect to see at a Barbarians match.
I'd agree. Ignoring the fact he'd never be let near a kick at goal in a meaningful match, there's no way he'd do that in a competitive game.
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JM2K6
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Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:42 pm No one has ever commented on a BaaBaas match except to say 'I am at the BaaBaas game, fancy a pint?'. There's plenty to criticise Eddie for without pretending Sunday meant anything either way, and had we stuck 50 past them you'd be making exactly this point.
Enjoying the deliberate blindness involved in saying "no-one has ever commented on a BaaBaas match" on a forum full of people who commented very negatively on the BaaBaas match discussing an article in a fucking national newspaper talking about the BaaBaas match in critical terms
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Guy Smiley
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Lobby wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:19 pm It might be worth recalling that England played the Barbarians 4 times during Woodwards tenure as coach, and only won once.

The three games England lost were not close either. The Barbarians won 43-29 in 2001, 49-36 in 2003 and 32-12 in 2004.

Like Jones, Woodward largely picked second string sides filled with fringe players, and used the games more as trials. He certainly didn’t seem to think they were important games to win back then.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

fucking Clive
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JM2K6
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Not sure that's a great gotcha. Do people genuinely not understand the difference between "losing with a 2nd string to a Barbarians team stuffed with quality" and "getting absolutely fucking humiliated by a bunch of players miles away from 'best in the world' status with the entire team looking a total mess"?

There's losing and then there's this.
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Guy Smiley
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JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:18 am Not sure that's a great gotcha. Do people genuinely not understand the difference between "losing with a 2nd string to a Barbarians team stuffed with quality" and "getting absolutely fucking humiliated by a bunch of players miles away from 'best in the world' status with the entire team looking a total mess"?

There's losing and then there's this.
Losing is losing and Clive would do well to remember that before launching into yet another of his prognostications.
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Kawazaki
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Two things can be right at the same time. I haven't gone back to watch any of the Barbarians matches England played during the tenure of Woodward so can't compare but those results don't invalidate his opinions on the game just Sunday.
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Ymx
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:17 am Two things can be right at the same time. I haven't gone back to watch any of the Barbarians matches England played during the tenure of Woodward so can't compare but those results don't invalidate his opinions on the game just Sunday.
Except he’s made a deal of it, and he’s throwing stones from a very glass house.
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Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:40 am
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:18 am Not sure that's a great gotcha. Do people genuinely not understand the difference between "losing with a 2nd string to a Barbarians team stuffed with quality" and "getting absolutely fucking humiliated by a bunch of players miles away from 'best in the world' status with the entire team looking a total mess"?

There's losing and then there's this.
Losing is losing and Clive would do well to remember that before launching into yet another of his prognostications.
Nah, that's just bullshit, and barely a point beyond "lol he lost". If Clive's point was just about losing then that would make sense. I'm sure you understand that while a loss is a loss, the manner of defeat matters quite a bit.

2001:
England: T Stimpson; P Sampson; L Lloyd; J Lewsey; M Stephenson; D Walder; K Bracken (capt); T Woodman; M Regan; J White; 4 S Shaw; S Borthwick; A Sanderson; A Hazell; J Worsley.
Replacements: D West; G Rowntree; B Kay; M Corry; M Wood; A King; B Johnston.

Baa-Baas: G Murphy; J Vidiri; T Horan; P Howard; J Lomu; B V Straaten; A Gomarsall; C Dowd; N Drotske; A Garvey; R Brooke; I Jones; P Lam; J Kronfeld; G Teichmann
Replacements: R Cockerill; K Yates; J Langford; A Gardiner; P Carbonneau; J Guscott; J Little.
A rank 2nd team England vs a BaaBaas side including the likes of Lomu, Dowd, Brooke, Jones, Kronfeld, Teichmann... and according to the reports England were pushing for the draw until the BaaBaas scored right at the end. Sounds like a good performance and a good game.


2003:
England: D Scarbrough; M Cueto, J Noon, B Johnston, P Christophers; D Walder, K Bracken; M Worsley ; M Regan, P Vickery (capt), A Codling, A Brown, M Corry, M Lipman, C Jones.
Replacements: A Titterrell, D Flatman, H Vyvyan, P Anglesea, N Walshe, K Sorrell, S Amor.

Barbarians: P Montgomery; A Tuilevu, T Castaignede, J Bell, B Reihana; D Humphreys, M Robinson; C Califano, M Sexton, C Hayman, AJ Venter, M Connors, J Collins, S Harding, T Randell (capt).
Replacements: R Ibanez, F Tournaire, H Louw, R Strudwick, M Robinson, F Contepomi, D Gibson.
You might recognise some of those England names but they were at the start of their careers. That is a 3rd/4th string side with some genuine no-hopers in there. Whereas the BaaBaas aren't quite the all-stars but still have some seriously top-class players, particularly in the pack and on the bench. Both sides gave it a lash. The sort of BaaBaas win you might expect.

2004:
England: M Horak; P Sackey, J Noon, K Sorrell, M Garvey; D Walder, N Walshe; M Worsley, M Regan, R Morris, M Cornwell, A Brown, D Hyde, A Hazell , H Vyvyan.

Replacements: C Fortey, J Dawson, P Buxton, D Fox, H Charlton, T May, D Scarbrough.

Barbarians: T Castaignede (Saracens & France), S Horgan (Leinster & Ireland), B O'Driscoll (Leinster & Ireland), N Grey (NSW Waratahs & Australia), B Reihana (Northampton & New Zealand), D Humphreys (Ulster & Ireland), M Robinson (Northampton & New Zealand), J Leonard (Harlequins & England), A Oliver (Otago Highlanders & New Zealand), C Visagie (Saracens & South Africa), M O'Kelly (Leinster & Ireland), M Andrews (Newcastle Falcons & South Africa), O Finegan (ACT Brumbies & Australia), A Vos (Harlequins & South Africa), T Randell (Saracens & New Zealand).

Replacements: M Sexton (Ulster), G Feek (Auckland Blues & New Zealand), O Magne (Montferrand & France), B Skinstad (Newport Gwent Dragons & South Africa), N De Kock (Western Stormers & South Africa), D Traille (Pau & France), M Burke (NSW Waratahs & Australia).
cool cool cool. Another 2nd/3rd/4th string England beaten by a side containing Castaignede, O'Driscoll, Grey, Leonard, Oliver, Visagie, Andrews, Finegan, Vos, Randell...

shit performance by England all told, so that's fair criticism.

England vs Barbarians 2022:
England: Freeman; Cokanasiga, Marchant, Atkinson, May; Smith, Randall; Rodd, Walker, Collier, Ewels, Hill, Curry (c), Underhill, Dombrandt (actually Chick).

Replacements: Singleton, Goodrick-Clarke, Schickerling, Lawes, Willis, Care, Bailey, Nowell.

Barbarians: Spring; Penaud, Vakatawa, Botia, Niniashvili; Hastoy, Couilloud; Gros, Bourgarit, Gigashvili, Kruis, Skelton, Cretin, Ollivon (c), Tanga

Replacements: Priso, Tolofua, Falatea, Lavault, Le Garrec, Carbonel, Macalou, Vili
A strong England side. Lots of regular starters - Marchant, May, Smith, Randall, Rodd, Ewels, Hill, Curry, Underhill. Live alternatives in Atkinson, Freeman, Collier, Walker. Very few players being gifted a cap for no real reason. Courtney Lawes, Jack Willis, Danny Care, Jack Nowell on the bench. Nothing like the Woodward sides, where the matches were genuinely used to give young talent and fringe players a chance.

France - I mean Barbarians - containing some good players but only a couple would be considered in the running for the best in the world in their position. No bad players in the side but it's drawn from a small pool of available players so there's not the stardust of other BaaBaas.

Result? A strong England gets absolutely steamrollered in an embarassing display against 14 men.

There's just no point talking about previous losses to the BaaBaas. Anyone with working synapses can understand the difference between what happened at the weekend and what happened in those historical losses. And that's why there's these headlines:

"England’s grim Barbarians loss and Dad’s Army platoon raise big questions"
"14-man Barbarians humiliate England ahead of Australia tour"
"Highlights: 14-man BaaBaas humiliate England"
"Kruis signs off in style with back-heel conversion as Barbarians embarrass England"
"14-man Barbarians 'make mockery of England' with hammering at Twickenham"
"Chastening afternoon for Jones as England hit by eight-try Barbarians"


but lol clive lost, I guess
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Torquemada 1420
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. I saw some of his quotes about the squad for the upcoming tour of Australia and that it was a 'good mixture of youth and experience'.

It should be absolutely nothing about that whatsoever. It's about picking your best starting XV, but under Jones we have lost that.

Pick your side based on the best team to represent England, nothing to do with age or experience — it really is not that difficult if you know what your best XV is.
This is clearly sh*t and I'm sure Woodentop ran experimental sides in Summer tours to gauge new players.

{EDIT} Just reached Lobby's post and, errrrr, exactly.
Last edited by Torquemada 1420 on Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kawazaki
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I forgot the Barbarians only had 14 players for 50 minutes!
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JM2K6
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:47 am
. I saw some of his quotes about the squad for the upcoming tour of Australia and that it was a 'good mixture of youth and experience'.

It should be absolutely nothing about that whatsoever. It's about picking your best starting XV, but under Jones we have lost that.

Pick your side based on the best team to represent England, nothing to do with age or experience — it really is not that difficult if you know what your best XV is.
This is clearly sh*t and I'm sure Woodentop ran experimental sides in Summer tours to gauge new players.

{EDIT} Just reached Lobby's post and, errrrr, exactly.
Yes, that was the era of tours to Hell, teams sent to die, etc.

I don't actually remember what led to England (and other sides?) starting to tour properly in the summer. It's partly hard to tell simply because the England teams of the mid-to-late 2000s looked like a team of no-hopers at best and it's easy to assume they were the 3rd string, and not the first team. For example, in 2006:
Backs

I Balshaw (Gloucester), M Van Gisbergen (Wasps), J Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester), T Varndell (Leicester), T Voyce (Wasps), J Noon (Newcastle), M Tait (Newcastle), S Abbott (Wasps), M Catt (London Irish), O Barkley (Bath), A Goode (Leicester), S Bemand (Leicester), P Richards (Gloucester), N Walshe (Bath).
Forwards
G Chuter (Leicester), L Mears (Bath), A Titterrell (Sale), T Payne (Wasps), G Rowntree (Leicester), Duncan Bell (Bath), J White (Leicester), A Brown (Gloucester), L Deacon (Leicester), C Jones (Sale), B Kay (Leicester), M Lipman (Bath), M Lund (Sale), L Moody (Leicester), P Sanderson (Worcester), J Worsley (Wasps).
Fly half options of Barkley and Goode? Scrum halves being Bemand, Richard, Walshe? Jamie Noon? Louis Deacon? Duncan Bell? Lee Mears?

oh yeah, that's the actual England side :oops:
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JM2K6
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:48 am I forgot the Barbarians only had 14 players for 50 minutes!
Easy to forget but it genuinely was a shocking indictment of England that they were so inept.

It genuinely bothers me that in a match against the Barbarians - the Barbarians ffs! - England looked like they were hating every minute of it.
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Kawazaki
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:47 am
. I saw some of his quotes about the squad for the upcoming tour of Australia and that it was a 'good mixture of youth and experience'.

It should be absolutely nothing about that whatsoever. It's about picking your best starting XV, but under Jones we have lost that.

Pick your side based on the best team to represent England, nothing to do with age or experience — it really is not that difficult if you know what your best XV is.
This is clearly sh*t and I'm sure Woodentop ran experimental sides in Summer tours to gauge new players.

{EDIT} Just reached Lobby's post and, errrrr, exactly.

The apposite line is "...if you know what your best XV is...".

Jones has been the England head coach for over 6 years with just 14 matches left before thee RWC begins and he's got selection issues at 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12,13 and14!
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JM2K6
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:53 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:47 am
. I saw some of his quotes about the squad for the upcoming tour of Australia and that it was a 'good mixture of youth and experience'.

It should be absolutely nothing about that whatsoever. It's about picking your best starting XV, but under Jones we have lost that.

Pick your side based on the best team to represent England, nothing to do with age or experience — it really is not that difficult if you know what your best XV is.
This is clearly sh*t and I'm sure Woodentop ran experimental sides in Summer tours to gauge new players.

{EDIT} Just reached Lobby's post and, errrrr, exactly.

The apposite line is "...if you know what your best XV is...".

Jones has been the England head coach for over 6 years with just 14 matches left before thee RWC begins and he's got selection issues at 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12,13 and14!
He's also managed to develop new problems over the last week. Billy will go straight in at 8 for the first time in ages because Eddie broke Dombrandt. Bevan Rodd had a shocker and he's not selected Marler so all of a sudden he has Genge and Mako (who had his struggles in the scrum recently) and that depth looks troublesome. He's got Curry, Underhill, and Willis fighting for what should be the same spot, but no natural 6. Randall had a mare and there's a 72 year old who genuinely looks like the best available option but there's still Ben Youngs and Raffi Quirke to come back. Atkinson played himself out of contention for 12 and Eddie refuses to look at Lozowski as backup for Farrell.

Christ.
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Kawazaki
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Lawes will be Jones's 6 in the RWC.

I wouldn't be surprised, assuming no injuries, to see this XV starting the RWC next year...

15. Steward
14. Nowell
13. Tuilagi
12. Farrell
11. May
10. Smith
9. Youngs
1. Genge
2. LCD
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Ewels
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
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