Douglas Murray

[Random1]

Anyone been listening to his stuff recently?

He’s going about trying to dismantle identity politics and wokery as part of a book tour.

Decent listen if you have an hour - i don’t agree with it all, but I think he makes good points about the cult like nature of some of the conversations being had at the moment.



One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

Anyway, thought I’d put it up in the hope of a nice conversation.

[JM2K6]

Oh come on

[Random1]

Oh come on

Eh?

[Ymx]

I don’t know what JM means for certain, but this sounds a bit like an excuse to baiting for a culture war thread.

[JM2K6]

Yes let's have a nice discussion about the guy who wanted Europe to stop all muslim immigration, the guy who continues to spout a variation on the "great replacement" racist conspiracy theory so beloved of American mass murderers, the guy so extreme that the fucking Tory party cut off him off - let's just pretend he's a guy putting some Good Thoughts together that we should all take very seriously and have a nice conversation about

or we could recognise he is an absolute cunt of a human being who - far from being the guy to tell us some hard truths about 'woke' and 'identity politics' has been pushing his own incredibly toxic brand of identity politics for a very long time, particularly as a head honcho at the Spectator, pre-eminent champions of the culture war. Plus, you know, bonus climate denial and championing of such prize cunts as Steve Bannon and Viktor fucking Orban.

What next, your favourite Rod Liddle columns? Tucker Carlson specials? The best nonsense metaphors by Jordan Peterson off his meds?

He is an absolute shit and I despair at anyone posting his stuff and thinking it's a reasonable basis for polite conversation.

[Random1]

I don’t know what JM means for certain, but this sounds a bit like an excuse to baiting for a culture war thread.

Not baiting - I genuinely find him interesting.

The last time JM told me to shut up it was about a white privileged thread and it went on to be a really interesting one where there was some really good conversation.

I just find this topic interesting.

[Ymx]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

[Random1]

Yes let's have a nice discussion about the guy who wanted Europe to stop all muslim immigration, the guy who continues to spout a variation on the "great replacement" racist conspiracy theory so beloved of American mass murderers, the guy so extreme that the fucking Tory party cut off him off - let's just pretend he's a guy putting some Good Thoughts together that we should all take very seriously and have a nice conversation about

or we could recognise he is an absolute cunt of a human being who - far from being the guy to tell us some hard truths about 'woke' and 'identity politics' has been pushing his own incredibly toxic brand of identity politics for a very long time, particularly as a head honcho at the Spectator, pre-eminent champions of the culture war. Plus, you know, bonus climate denial and championing of such prize cunts as Steve Bannon and Viktor fucking Orban.

What next, your favourite Rod Liddle columns? Tucker Carlson specials? The best nonsense metaphors by Jordan Peterson off his meds?

He is an absolute shit and I despair at anyone posting his stuff and thinking it's a reasonable basis for polite conversation.

Even cunts can have a good point every now and again. You rely on ad hominem arguments a lot JM.

Is there anyone on the right you don’t think’s a cunt?

[fishfoodie]

Yes let's have a nice discussion about the guy who wanted Europe to stop all muslim immigration, the guy who continues to spout a variation on the "great replacement" racist conspiracy theory so beloved of American mass murderers, the guy so extreme that the fucking Tory party cut off him off - let's just pretend he's a guy putting some Good Thoughts together that we should all take very seriously and have a nice conversation about

or we could recognise he is an absolute cunt of a human being who - far from being the guy to tell us some hard truths about 'woke' and 'identity politics' has been pushing his own incredibly toxic brand of identity politics for a very long time, particularly as a head honcho at the Spectator, pre-eminent champions of the culture war. Plus, you know, bonus climate denial and championing of such prize cunts as Steve Bannon and Viktor fucking Orban.

What next, your favourite Rod Liddle columns? Tucker Carlson specials? The best nonsense metaphors by Jordan Peterson off his meds?

He is an absolute shit and I despair at anyone posting his stuff and thinking it's a reasonable basis for polite conversation.

So you're saying that Mussolini making the trains run on time*, didn't make up for years of murder, & fascism

* he didn't even do this ....

[JM2K6]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

Certainly would be on brand. Seneca would be nodding along while quoting Murray praising and boosting basically every far right racist politician in Europe - Wilders, Le Pen, Orban, etc - before superciliously declaring that "identity politics" will be the death of western society, at the same time as spending countless hours talking about... the 'threats' to white people and white civilisation

[Random1]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

I remember the username, but can’t recall his approach.

[Random1]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

Certainly would be on brand. Seneca would be nodding along while quoting Murray praising and boosting basically every far right racist politician in Europe - Wilders, Le Pen, Orban, etc - before superciliously declaring that "identity politics" will be the death of western society, at the same time as spending countless hours talking about... the 'threats' to white people and white civilisation

Ah, well, I don’t like the far right, so I can’t fill that void I’m afraid.

[JM2K6]

Yes let's have a nice discussion about the guy who wanted Europe to stop all muslim immigration, the guy who continues to spout a variation on the "great replacement" racist conspiracy theory so beloved of American mass murderers, the guy so extreme that the fucking Tory party cut off him off - let's just pretend he's a guy putting some Good Thoughts together that we should all take very seriously and have a nice conversation about

or we could recognise he is an absolute cunt of a human being who - far from being the guy to tell us some hard truths about 'woke' and 'identity politics' has been pushing his own incredibly toxic brand of identity politics for a very long time, particularly as a head honcho at the Spectator, pre-eminent champions of the culture war. Plus, you know, bonus climate denial and championing of such prize cunts as Steve Bannon and Viktor fucking Orban.

What next, your favourite Rod Liddle columns? Tucker Carlson specials? The best nonsense metaphors by Jordan Peterson off his meds?

He is an absolute shit and I despair at anyone posting his stuff and thinking it's a reasonable basis for polite conversation.

Even cunts can have a good point every now and again. You rely on ad hominem arguments a lot JM.

Is there anyone on the right you don’t think’s a cunt?

It's not an ad hominem argument to say that a borderline fascist with a track record of incredibly odious statements, who's made a career out of whipping up hatred towards non-white people, who has promoted a racist conspiracy theory, who has repeatedly boosted and praised far right politicans, who spends his entire time engaged in the worst kind of identity politics, is not actually a good and reasonable source of information to listen to on the subject of identity politics, let alone 'wokery', let alone a good basis to start a conversation on this board.

As for the last sentence, you do understand the difference between "the right" and far-right scumbags like Murray and co, yeah? There are plenty of right wingers who don't think and act like him or Tucker Carlson or Stephen Bannon or whichever intellectually bereft culture warrior you're fond of this week.

Ah, well, I don’t like the far right, so I can’t fill that void I’m afraid.

Douglas Murray is explicitly far right and holds and pushes far right opinions and viewpoints. You cannot listen to him talk about identity politics for an hour without realising that he's doing so from that perspective.

[Random1]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

Certainly would be on brand. Seneca would be nodding along while quoting Murray praising and boosting basically every far right racist politician in Europe - Wilders, Le Pen, Orban, etc - before superciliously declaring that "identity politics" will be the death of western society, at the same time as spending countless hours talking about... the 'threats' to white people and white civilisation

Actually, if you watched the video, you’d see that Murray addresses that point (or at least tries to) when he talks about identity politics being about purpose in a post religious world. He says that he can see the value of belonging to a group and then talks about something I’ve pondered for ages; if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

[JM2K6]

This thread makes me feel nostalgic for good old Seneca of the Night.

Certainly would be on brand. Seneca would be nodding along while quoting Murray praising and boosting basically every far right racist politician in Europe - Wilders, Le Pen, Orban, etc - before superciliously declaring that "identity politics" will be the death of western society, at the same time as spending countless hours talking about... the 'threats' to white people and white civilisation

Actually, if you watched the video, you’d see that Murray addresses that point (or at least tries to) when he talks about identity politics being about purpose in a post religious world. He says that he can see the value of belonging to a group and then talks about something I’ve pondered for ages; if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

Incredibly interesting? It's standard anti-immigration politics 101. Did he at any point admit that he himself is caught up in a need to 'belong' when he wanks on about the death of western civilisation at the hands of the immigrants (and the muslims in particular) or did he hold himself above that?

Spoiler: I bet he doesn't really believe he has been caught up in it. Because at the heart of it all, he's a disingenuous cunt who uses this stuff as a facade for his more base and much less intellectual leanings, i.e. that he's a fascist, racist cunt. Dressing it up in thought experiments and lofty clash-of-civilisations stuff doesn't change that.

[Uncle fester]

Anyone been listening to his stuff recently?

He’s going about trying to dismantle identity politics and wokery as part of a book tour.

Yep, all about trying to dismantle the identity politics that he doesn't happen to agree with.

[Random1]

Yes let's have a nice discussion about the guy who wanted Europe to stop all muslim immigration, the guy who continues to spout a variation on the "great replacement" racist conspiracy theory so beloved of American mass murderers, the guy so extreme that the fucking Tory party cut off him off - let's just pretend he's a guy putting some Good Thoughts together that we should all take very seriously and have a nice conversation about

or we could recognise he is an absolute cunt of a human being who - far from being the guy to tell us some hard truths about 'woke' and 'identity politics' has been pushing his own incredibly toxic brand of identity politics for a very long time, particularly as a head honcho at the Spectator, pre-eminent champions of the culture war. Plus, you know, bonus climate denial and championing of such prize cunts as Steve Bannon and Viktor fucking Orban.

What next, your favourite Rod Liddle columns? Tucker Carlson specials? The best nonsense metaphors by Jordan Peterson off his meds?

He is an absolute shit and I despair at anyone posting his stuff and thinking it's a reasonable basis for polite conversation.

Even cunts can have a good point every now and again. You rely on ad hominem arguments a lot JM.

Is there anyone on the right you don’t think’s a cunt?

It's not an ad hominem argument to say that a borderline fascist with a track record of incredibly odious statements, who's made a career out of whipping up hatred towards non-white people, who has promoted a racist conspiracy theory, who has repeatedly boosted and praised far right politicans, who spends his entire time engaged in the worst kind of identity politics, is not actually a good and reasonable source of information to listen to on the subject of identity politics, let alone 'wokery', let alone a good basis to start a conversation on this board.

As for the last sentence, you do understand the difference between "the right" and far-right scumbags like Murray and co, yeah? There are plenty of right wingers who don't think and act like him or Tucker Carlson or Stephen Bannon or whichever intellectually bereft culture warrior you're fond of this week.

Ah, well, I don’t like the far right, so I can’t fill that void I’m afraid.

Douglas Murray is explicitly far right and holds and pushes far right opinions and viewpoints. You cannot listen to him talk about identity politics for an hour without realising that he's doing so from that perspective.

I haven’t seen evidence that he’s far right from what I’ve seen in interviews - he seems like a fairly well educated thoughtful bloke who I think identifies some good points - particularly about the west having a self loathing about itself at the moment.

I’ll take a look to see if I can find any of the far right stuff you’ve mentioned though, just in case you’re right.

[Random1]

Certainly would be on brand. Seneca would be nodding along while quoting Murray praising and boosting basically every far right racist politician in Europe - Wilders, Le Pen, Orban, etc - before superciliously declaring that "identity politics" will be the death of western society, at the same time as spending countless hours talking about... the 'threats' to white people and white civilisation

Actually, if you watched the video, you’d see that Murray addresses that point (or at least tries to) when he talks about identity politics being about purpose in a post religious world. He says that he can see the value of belonging to a group and then talks about something I’ve pondered for ages; if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

Incredibly interesting? It's standard anti-immigration politics 101. Did he at any point admit that he himself is caught up in a need to 'belong' when he wanks on about the death of western civilisation at the hands of the immigrants (and the muslims in particular) or did he hold himself above that?

Spoiler: I bet he doesn't really believe he has been caught up in it. Because at the heart of it all, he's a disingenuous cunt who uses this stuff as a facade for his more base and much less intellectual leanings, i.e. that he's a fascist, racist cunt. Dressing it up in thought experiments and lofty clash-of-civilisations stuff doesn't change that.

He doesn’t mention immigration. His point is about the glue that binds society together is needing to be replaced because religion doesn’t fill that role anymore.

[JM2K6]

Even cunts can have a good point every now and again. You rely on ad hominem arguments a lot JM.

Is there anyone on the right you don’t think’s a cunt?

It's not an ad hominem argument to say that a borderline fascist with a track record of incredibly odious statements, who's made a career out of whipping up hatred towards non-white people, who has promoted a racist conspiracy theory, who has repeatedly boosted and praised far right politicans, who spends his entire time engaged in the worst kind of identity politics, is not actually a good and reasonable source of information to listen to on the subject of identity politics, let alone 'wokery', let alone a good basis to start a conversation on this board.

As for the last sentence, you do understand the difference between "the right" and far-right scumbags like Murray and co, yeah? There are plenty of right wingers who don't think and act like him or Tucker Carlson or Stephen Bannon or whichever intellectually bereft culture warrior you're fond of this week.

Ah, well, I don’t like the far right, so I can’t fill that void I’m afraid.

Douglas Murray is explicitly far right and holds and pushes far right opinions and viewpoints. You cannot listen to him talk about identity politics for an hour without realising that he's doing so from that perspective.

I haven’t seen evidence that he’s far right from what I’ve seen in interviews - he seems like a fairly well educated thoughtful bloke who I think identifies some good points - particularly about the west having a self loathing about itself at the moment.

I’ll take a look to see if I can find any of the far right stuff you’ve mentioned though, just in case you’re right.

Oh my god

[JM2K6]

Actually, if you watched the video, you’d see that Murray addresses that point (or at least tries to) when he talks about identity politics being about purpose in a post religious world. He says that he can see the value of belonging to a group and then talks about something I’ve pondered for ages; if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

Incredibly interesting? It's standard anti-immigration politics 101. Did he at any point admit that he himself is caught up in a need to 'belong' when he wanks on about the death of western civilisation at the hands of the immigrants (and the muslims in particular) or did he hold himself above that?

Spoiler: I bet he doesn't really believe he has been caught up in it. Because at the heart of it all, he's a disingenuous cunt who uses this stuff as a facade for his more base and much less intellectual leanings, i.e. that he's a fascist, racist cunt. Dressing it up in thought experiments and lofty clash-of-civilisations stuff doesn't change that.

He doesn’t mention immigration. His point is about the glue that binds society together is needing to be replaced because religion doesn’t fill that role anymore.

I was going to leave it at the last post because frankly that's all that needed saying, but I just wanted to point out that you don't need to explicitly mention immigration in order to be talking about immigration. Again, Murray's entire world view is based on this anti-immigration, pro ethno-nationalist, pro-fascism viewpoint and neatly ordering people into groups based on religion or nation is a core part of that concept, because it then allows for the logical next step of "anyone not belonging to that religion or that nation can never truly integrate; anyone from a competing nation or religion must be definition be an invader and a danger to those in the first group". That is fundamentally what he wanks on about constantly.

I can't believe you listened to him talk about 'belonging to religious or national groups as a glue for society' and didn't get any of the wider context.

G'night.

[Hugo]

One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

The biggest flaw in this line of argument is that many of the atrocities that were perpetuated during the period of colonialism (and afterwards) have actually not been apologised for.

Belgium acknowledges the horrors it committed in the Congo but won't go the whole hog and apologise for them. Ditto France and Algeria, UK and the Boer war and so on and so forth.

To their credit Germany seems more willing to come to terms with their dark past, it apologised for its genocide in Namibia last year.

[Random1]

Incredibly interesting? It's standard anti-immigration politics 101. Did he at any point admit that he himself is caught up in a need to 'belong' when he wanks on about the death of western civilisation at the hands of the immigrants (and the muslims in particular) or did he hold himself above that?

Spoiler: I bet he doesn't really believe he has been caught up in it. Because at the heart of it all, he's a disingenuous cunt who uses this stuff as a facade for his more base and much less intellectual leanings, i.e. that he's a fascist, racist cunt. Dressing it up in thought experiments and lofty clash-of-civilisations stuff doesn't change that.

He doesn’t mention immigration. His point is about the glue that binds society together is needing to be replaced because religion doesn’t fill that role anymore.

I was going to leave it at the last post because frankly that's all that needed saying, but I just wanted to point out that you don't need to explicitly mention immigration in order to be talking about immigration. Again, Murray's entire world view is based on this anti-immigration, pro ethno-nationalist, pro-fascism viewpoint and neatly ordering people into groups based on religion or nation is a core part of that concept, because it then allows for the logical next step of "anyone not belonging to that religion or that nation can never truly integrate; anyone from a competing nation or religion must be definition be an invader and a danger to those in the first group". That is fundamentally what he wanks on about constantly.

I can't believe you listened to him talk about 'belonging to religious or national groups as a glue for society' and didn't get any of the wider context.

G'night.

Yeah, I’m toddling to bed too, so I’ll make this the last post, but will look more tomorrow.

Here’s a YouTube video of Murray debating immigration, with the question being; is Britain full? And he says, no it’s not.

As I say, I’ll look more tomorrow, but his views in this video on the exact point you’re referring to seems to be inconsistent with the far right - again, he seems pretty reasonable in the points he makes.

[Biffer]

Got to say JM is right on this.

[petej]

One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

Every country has a mixture of good and bad things in its history. Plenty to be proud of but the bad bits shouldn't be ignored. The descendents of those who profited from the bad bits and exploited people in colonies and people here as well probably still hold wealth, land and influence don't want it being questioned

Actually, if you watched the video, you’d see that Murray addresses that point (or at least tries to) when he talks about identity politics being about purpose in a post religious world. He says that he can see the value of belonging to a group and then talks about something I’ve pondered for ages; if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

Incredibly interesting? It's standard anti-immigration politics 101. Did he at any point admit that he himself is caught up in a need to 'belong' when he wanks on about the death of western civilisation at the hands of the immigrants (and the muslims in particular) or did he hold himself above that?

Spoiler: I bet he doesn't really believe he has been caught up in it. Because at the heart of it all, he's a disingenuous cunt who uses this stuff as a facade for his more base and much less intellectual leanings, i.e. that he's a fascist, racist cunt. Dressing it up in thought experiments and lofty clash-of-civilisations stuff doesn't change that.

He doesn’t mention immigration. His point is about the glue that binds society together is needing to be replaced because religion doesn’t fill that role anymore.

The top 10 happiest countries in the world hardly strike me as religious strongholds:
Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Austria.
Wealthy and developed yes religious no.

Douglas Murray seems so interesting (Eton, Oxford arts degree, journalist/columnist) and i'm sure he writes totally original stuff.

Plenty of things pull societies together. You should have noted that our society pulled together in the pandemic when our leadership thought we wouldn't and acted in the most part for what we thought was the benefit of society. This is because our current leaders are undoubtedly among the most selfish and dishonest members of our society so expected everyone to act like them and not follow rules be they COVID restrictions or paying tax (avoiding tax might be legal but that doesn't mean it is fair). The England football team pulled people together last summer despite some of our politicians best attempts to stir shit.

[Random1]

Got to get to work, but will come back to this thread tonight, as I’m still finding a disconnect between describing Murray as far right and the stuff I’m seeing when he’s interviewed.

Here’s a shorter 9 min video where he is just asking for more conversation. There are a couple of clips of videos at the start that I’ll track down later, as they hint at a more ardent stance, but the rest of the video seems reasoned (albeit, I don’t agree with all the points he makes).

[sturginho]

Is he "just asking questions"?

[I like neeps]

Is he "just asking questions"?

No, he's writing the answers for stand up guys like Zemmour and Orban.

[I like neeps]

Anyone been listening to his stuff recently?

He’s going about trying to dismantle identity politics and wokery as part of a book tour.

Decent listen if you have an hour - i don’t agree with it all, but I think he makes good points about the cult like nature of some of the conversations being had at the moment.



One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

Anyway, thought I’d put it up in the hope of a nice conversation.

He isn't dismantling identity politics. His entire raisin d'etre is identity politics for white people. The identity he wants for his politics is white European Christian values/politics etc. Which isn't in itself harmful, people can follow Judeo-Christian western tradition.

[Tichtheid]

Presumably, as a gay man, Murray is quite okay with the identity politics that brought about legalisation of same sex marriage, equality in the workplace, freedom from discrimination and possibly even actively targeting gay people for violent assault being treated as hate crimes?

I assume that Pride events, where their goal is their obsolescence, is an identity politics he can live with, a cherry-picked "woke" event that is okay?

I don't even know where to start with the word "woke", but anyone who uses it in the sense in this thread has a lot of work to do before they can even begun to be reasoned with.

[Calculon]

Anyone been listening to his stuff recently?

He’s going about trying to dismantle identity politics and wokery as part of a book tour.

Decent listen if you have an hour - i don’t agree with it all, but I think he makes good points about the cult like nature of some of the conversations being had at the moment.



One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

Anyway, thought I’d put it up in the hope of a nice conversation.

He isn't dismantling identity politics. His entire raisin d'etre is identity politics for white people. The identity he wants for his politics is white European Christian values/politics etc. Which isn't in itself harmful, people can follow Judeo-Christian western tradition.

It's far preferable to middle Eastern or central Asian Islamic values/politics. No sane British person would want too many Mohammedans in the UK.

[I like neeps]

Anyone been listening to his stuff recently?

He’s going about trying to dismantle identity politics and wokery as part of a book tour.

Decent listen if you have an hour - i don’t agree with it all, but I think he makes good points about the cult like nature of some of the conversations being had at the moment.



One main area I have a problem reconciling with his view is that he wants people to forgive historic wrongs, but then also wants promote historic pride. I don’t see how that isn’t hypocritical.

Anyway, thought I’d put it up in the hope of a nice conversation.

He isn't dismantling identity politics. His entire raisin d'etre is identity politics for white people. The identity he wants for his politics is white European Christian values/politics etc. Which isn't in itself harmful, people can follow Judeo-Christian western tradition.

It's far preferable to middle Eastern or central Asian Islamic values/politics. No sane British person would want too many Mohammedans in the UK.

Sure. But that wasn't my point. To say Murray hates identity politics is bananas. He absolutely loves white Christian identity politics. That's literally his entire media profile and in forms all his arguments.

[Wylie Coyote]

It's not an ad hominem argument to say that a borderline fascist with a track record of incredibly odious statements, who's made a career out of whipping up hatred towards non-white people, who has promoted a racist conspiracy theory, who has repeatedly boosted and praised far right politicans, who spends his entire time engaged in the worst kind of identity politics, is not actually a good and reasonable source of information to listen to on the subject of identity politics, let alone 'wokery', let alone a good basis to start a conversation on this board.

As for the last sentence, you do understand the difference between "the right" and far-right scumbags like Murray and co, yeah? There are plenty of right wingers who don't think and act like him or Tucker Carlson or Stephen Bannon or whichever intellectually bereft culture warrior you're fond of this week.



Douglas Murray is explicitly far right and holds and pushes far right opinions and viewpoints. You cannot listen to him talk about identity politics for an hour without realising that he's doing so from that perspective.

I haven’t seen evidence that he’s far right from what I’ve seen in interviews - he seems like a fairly well educated thoughtful bloke who I think identifies some good points - particularly about the west having a self loathing about itself at the moment.

I’ll take a look to see if I can find any of the far right stuff you’ve mentioned though, just in case you’re right.

Oh my god

There could not be a more stark contrast between the approaches of these two posts. Hint: JM2K6 you're doing a good job of persuading folks to actually consider listening to Murray.

[PornDog]

if you don’t feel a belonging to religion, or nationhood, what can act as the glue to a society.

I think that’s an incredibly interesting question to ponder.

It's a deeply disturbing concept is what it is - society itself is the glue, we are social creatures to our very core. Religion and nationhood (or Patriotism if you prefer to invoke Wilde) are tools used for control within that society. They are not essential to it, but rather a cancer eating away at such basic social concepts such as liberty, fraternity and equality.

We don't need those tools which is why they are being increasingly rejected, trying to find a replacement for them is just vicious cunts looking for new tools for control.

(and by the way, depressing as it may be, social media is the answer to that question)

I don't even know where to start with the word "woke", but anyone who uses it in the sense in this thread has a lot of work to do before they can even begun to be reasoned with.

Anyone that uses that word goes automatically into the "he's a fucking twat" basket. It's mostly filled with those that rail against it rather than those that claim to be adherents.

[shaggy]

I had never even heard of Douglas Murray. I thought this was a thread on a new great tighthead that Scotland has unearthed!

[JM2K6]

He doesn’t mention immigration. His point is about the glue that binds society together is needing to be replaced because religion doesn’t fill that role anymore.

I was going to leave it at the last post because frankly that's all that needed saying, but I just wanted to point out that you don't need to explicitly mention immigration in order to be talking about immigration. Again, Murray's entire world view is based on this anti-immigration, pro ethno-nationalist, pro-fascism viewpoint and neatly ordering people into groups based on religion or nation is a core part of that concept, because it then allows for the logical next step of "anyone not belonging to that religion or that nation can never truly integrate; anyone from a competing nation or religion must be definition be an invader and a danger to those in the first group". That is fundamentally what he wanks on about constantly.

I can't believe you listened to him talk about 'belonging to religious or national groups as a glue for society' and didn't get any of the wider context.

G'night.

Yeah, I’m toddling to bed too, so I’ll make this the last post, but will look more tomorrow.

Here’s a YouTube video of Murray debating immigration, with the question being; is Britain full? And he says, no it’s not.

As I say, I’ll look more tomorrow, but his views in this video on the exact point you’re referring to seems to be inconsistent with the far right - again, he seems pretty reasonable in the points he makes.

Is this a joke?

The far right has no problem with "right kind of immigration". It fits their world view perfectly. The problem isn't that the country is literally full and there's no space or resources. They have no issue with rich white Christian / Christian-adjacent immigration. Andi it's very flexible - sometimes it's the ethno part, sometimes it's the nationalism part, but it's almost always the "looks like us, thinks like us" reality of it.

Got to get to work, but will come back to this thread tonight, as I’m still finding a disconnect between describing Murray as far right and the stuff I’m seeing when he’s interviewed.

Here’s a shorter 9 min video where he is just asking for more conversation. There are a couple of clips of videos at the start that I’ll track down later, as they hint at a more ardent stance, but the rest of the video seems reasoned (albeit, I don’t agree with all the points he makes).

Oh, it is a joke.

Look, you have to work really fucking hard to try and make out that Douglas Murray isn't far right. It seems pretty clear to me that your thought process has gone like this: "I agree with what Douglas Murray says, I don't consider myself far right, ergo Douglas Murray isn't far right".

Douglas Murray has written several books railing against immigration - primarily against immigration of non-white and/or non-Christian people. In "The Strange Death of Europe" he basically pushes the far-right 'Great Replacement' conspiracy theory, which - if you've been paying attention - is a cause celebre of notable far right media figures at the moment and has been taken up with great gusto by the people who like to commit mass murders in the name of ~protecting western civilisation~. In that book he famously boosted "Camp of the Saints" which is often described as 'a blatant white supremacist novel'. So that's nice. As is his admiration for Enoch "Rivers of Blood" Powell, in the same book.

In the same book, he also directly referenced Richard Camus, the French writer who is credited with inventing that 'great replacement' theory, and who has been so massively influential on far right politicians like Marine Le Pen & Eric Zemmour (who also wrote 'Le Suicide Francais', just so we're keeping track of how these people essentially amplify each other). Murray claimed that Camus' population replacement was indeed happening in Britain. A far right conspiracy theory being extolled by Douglas Murray.

Douglas Murray has written countless screeds and polemics decrying immigration in extremist terms on several of the many platforms he regularly publishes on. A sample quote:

Among other things the fact that we are living with the consequences of an immigration and ‘integration’ fantasy which should have been abandoned years ago. Instead our governments have kept pretending that the weakening of Europe’s external borders and the erosion of its internal borders happening at the same time as one of the largest population replacement exercises in history could have no tangible effects on our continent’s future.

Douglas Murray campaigned for a hostile environment against Muslims in Europe:

In 2006, Douglas Murray made a speech in the Dutch Parliament called "What are we to do about Islam?" His answers were uncompromising. "Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition". How this was to be done was not set out exhaustively, though Murray suggested demolishing mosques in certain circumstances. He also said that "all immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop" (presumably including that of non-Muslims from those countries, such as atheists and Christians). Finally, he suggested that European Muslims who "take part in, plot, assist or condone [my italic] violence against the west must be forcibly deported to their place of origin".

(he also described Muslims as a 'demographic time-bomb' - oh look, there's that conspiracy theory again)

His extremism regarding Islam is what led the Tories - not exactly a hotbed of liberalism - to cut ties with him: https://www.conservativehome.com/2011/1 ... -religion/

Douglas Murray claimed that Tommy Robinson of the EDL, BNP, and Pegida, noted far-right anti-Islam activist and convicted criminal, is not a racist, and that because he once punched a Nazi he can't possibly hold fascist views.

Douglas Murray repeatedly used Hungarian immigration as a stick to beat immigration with - it was a particularly useful one during Brexit - but has since cosied up to far right borderline fascist Viktor Orban of Hungary, and has spent time providing glowing media coverage for him and repeating (and applauding) his far right views to captive audiences in Hungary and the USA. Orban - in common with many on the far right - loved Murray's Strange Death of Europe. His cosying up to Orban is remarkable - Murray prides himself on being a champion against anti-Semitism, and Orban is a champion of anti-Semitism who frequently invokes anti-Semitic tropes regarding George Soros and others; also, Orban is virulently anti-LGBT and Murray is gay. Strange bedfellows indeed. I guess those principles aren't as rock solid as he makes out.

In one of his friendly meetings with Orban, he also enjoyed the company of Stephen Bannon, noted racist, pusher of far-right conspiracy theories, founder of far-right website Breitbart News, and fraudster (pardoned by Trump, natch). Bannon has openly been working to tie multiple far right groups together, especially in Europe, after getting punted by the Trump campaign.

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politican Geert Wilders: 'Geert Wilders doesn't threaten Dutch liberalism: he's defending it'.

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politician Eric Zemmour: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... evolution/

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politician Matteo Salvini: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sal ... mmon-touch

Douglas Murray wrote a defence of noted far-right politician Marine Le Pen: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/is- ... far-right/

Douglas Murray likes writing lies about rape statistics in order to make out immigrants - particularly Muslims - are all dangerous rapists

Douglas Murray founded the Centre for Social Cohesion which became the Henry Jackson Society, described thusly by a co-founder:

Co-founder Matthew Jamison, who now works for YouGov, wrote in 2017 that he was ashamed of his involvement, having never imagined the Henry Jackson Society "would become a far-right, deeply anti-Muslim racist ... propaganda outfit to smear other cultures, religions and ethnic groups", further relating that: "The HJS for many years has relentlessly demonised Muslims and Islam"

Douglas Murray defended John Cleese's comment about how London isn't 'an English city' by citing census data regarding a minority of Londoners being "white British" - skin colour giving the game away.

Douglas Murray is so commonly linked to the far right that even his Wikipedia page has multiple sources on this

Douglas Murray likes posting shit like this on Twitter:




What I posted is not the sum total of the evidence against him, just all that I could easily find on a morning where I've had very little sleep and am functioning on pure irritation. Douglas Murray is a far right scumbag who repeatedly spouts far-right conspiracy theories, has published books featuring far right viewpoints and conspiracy theories, has a long and odious history regarding immigration and Islam, is cosying up to far right dictators and never met a far right politician he wasn't willing to go to bat for, and is 100% a genuine fucking cunt.

[JM2K6]

There could not be a more stark contrast between the approaches of these two posts. Hint: JM2K6 you're doing a good job of persuading folks to actually consider listening to Murray.

And this is how the "just asking questions" routine actually fools people. Being polite, 'curious' (but realistically lacking any genuine intellectual curiosity), and inoffensive leads people to believe that it's okay to start listening to pure shitbags like Murray, and the guy getting angry at that is the one who should be criticised.

I don't really give a shit because this isn't a debating forum or Newsnight, but it's a telling point nonetheless. Random1 has form for this shit and while I was totally willing to believe he's just painfully naive, the responses he's given me have shown beyond a doubt that he has no interest in actually 'debating' this stuff and just wants to say he agrees with Murray and hopes other people do too, without having to examine what that actually means and what it says about him.

[Uncle fester]

There could not be a more stark contrast between the approaches of these two posts. Hint: JM2K6 you're doing a good job of persuading folks to actually consider listening to Murray.

And this is how the "just asking questions" routine actually fools people. Being polite, 'curious' (but realistically lacking any genuine intellectual curiosity), and inoffensive leads people to believe that it's okay to start listening to pure shitbags like Murray, and the guy getting angry at that is the one who should be criticised.

I don't really give a shit because this isn't a debating forum or Newsnight, but it's a telling point nonetheless. Random1 has form for this shit and while I was totally willing to believe he's just painfully naive, the responses he's given me have shown beyond a doubt that he has no interest in actually 'debating' this stuff and just wants to say he agrees with Murray and hopes other people do too, without having to examine what that actually means and what it says about him.

Or he's just looking for attention?

[yermum]

Sealioning at its finest.

https://www.macleans.ca/culture/sealion ... nbearable/

[eldanielfire]

I was going to leave it at the last post because frankly that's all that needed saying,

I don't believe you have ever actually doen that, least of all when you claim your going to stop

[Random1]

I was going to leave it at the last post because frankly that's all that needed saying, but I just wanted to point out that you don't need to explicitly mention immigration in order to be talking about immigration. Again, Murray's entire world view is based on this anti-immigration, pro ethno-nationalist, pro-fascism viewpoint and neatly ordering people into groups based on religion or nation is a core part of that concept, because it then allows for the logical next step of "anyone not belonging to that religion or that nation can never truly integrate; anyone from a competing nation or religion must be definition be an invader and a danger to those in the first group". That is fundamentally what he wanks on about constantly.

I can't believe you listened to him talk about 'belonging to religious or national groups as a glue for society' and didn't get any of the wider context.

G'night.

Yeah, I’m toddling to bed too, so I’ll make this the last post, but will look more tomorrow.

Here’s a YouTube video of Murray debating immigration, with the question being; is Britain full? And he says, no it’s not.

As I say, I’ll look more tomorrow, but his views in this video on the exact point you’re referring to seems to be inconsistent with the far right - again, he seems pretty reasonable in the points he makes.

Is this a joke?

The far right has no problem with "right kind of immigration". It fits their world view perfectly. The problem isn't that the country is literally full and there's no space or resources. They have no issue with rich white Christian / Christian-adjacent immigration. Andi it's very flexible - sometimes it's the ethno part, sometimes it's the nationalism part, but it's almost always the "looks like us, thinks like us" reality of it.

Got to get to work, but will come back to this thread tonight, as I’m still finding a disconnect between describing Murray as far right and the stuff I’m seeing when he’s interviewed.

Here’s a shorter 9 min video where he is just asking for more conversation. There are a couple of clips of videos at the start that I’ll track down later, as they hint at a more ardent stance, but the rest of the video seems reasoned (albeit, I don’t agree with all the points he makes).

Oh, it is a joke.

Look, you have to work really fucking hard to try and make out that Douglas Murray isn't far right. It seems pretty clear to me that your thought process has gone like this: "I agree with what Douglas Murray says, I don't consider myself far right, ergo Douglas Murray isn't far right".

Douglas Murray has written several books railing against immigration - primarily against immigration of non-white and/or non-Christian people. In "The Strange Death of Europe" he basically pushes the far-right 'Great Replacement' conspiracy theory, which - if you've been paying attention - is a cause celebre of notable far right media figures at the moment and has been taken up with great gusto by the people who like to commit mass murders in the name of ~protecting western civilisation~. In that book he famously boosted "Camp of the Saints" which is often described as 'a blatant white supremacist novel'. So that's nice. As is his admiration for Enoch "Rivers of Blood" Powell, in the same book.

In the same book, he also directly referenced Richard Camus, the French writer who is credited with inventing that 'great replacement' theory, and who has been so massively influential on far right politicians like Marine Le Pen & Eric Zemmour (who also wrote 'Le Suicide Francais', just so we're keeping track of how these people essentially amplify each other). Murray claimed that Camus' population replacement was indeed happening in Britain. A far right conspiracy theory being extolled by Douglas Murray.

Douglas Murray has written countless screeds and polemics decrying immigration in extremist terms on several of the many platforms he regularly publishes on. A sample quote:

Among other things the fact that we are living with the consequences of an immigration and ‘integration’ fantasy which should have been abandoned years ago. Instead our governments have kept pretending that the weakening of Europe’s external borders and the erosion of its internal borders happening at the same time as one of the largest population replacement exercises in history could have no tangible effects on our continent’s future.

Douglas Murray campaigned for a hostile environment against Muslims in Europe:

In 2006, Douglas Murray made a speech in the Dutch Parliament called "What are we to do about Islam?" His answers were uncompromising. "Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition". How this was to be done was not set out exhaustively, though Murray suggested demolishing mosques in certain circumstances. He also said that "all immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop" (presumably including that of non-Muslims from those countries, such as atheists and Christians). Finally, he suggested that European Muslims who "take part in, plot, assist or condone [my italic] violence against the west must be forcibly deported to their place of origin".

(he also described Muslims as a 'demographic time-bomb' - oh look, there's that conspiracy theory again)

His extremism regarding Islam is what led the Tories - not exactly a hotbed of liberalism - to cut ties with him: https://www.conservativehome.com/2011/1 ... -religion/

Douglas Murray claimed that Tommy Robinson of the EDL, BNP, and Pegida, noted far-right anti-Islam activist and convicted criminal, is not a racist, and that because he once punched a Nazi he can't possibly hold fascist views.

Douglas Murray repeatedly used Hungarian immigration as a stick to beat immigration with - it was a particularly useful one during Brexit - but has since cosied up to far right borderline fascist Viktor Orban of Hungary, and has spent time providing glowing media coverage for him and repeating (and applauding) his far right views to captive audiences in Hungary and the USA. Orban - in common with many on the far right - loved Murray's Strange Death of Europe. His cosying up to Orban is remarkable - Murray prides himself on being a champion against anti-Semitism, and Orban is a champion of anti-Semitism who frequently invokes anti-Semitic tropes regarding George Soros and others; also, Orban is virulently anti-LGBT and Murray is gay. Strange bedfellows indeed. I guess those principles aren't as rock solid as he makes out.

In one of his friendly meetings with Orban, he also enjoyed the company of Stephen Bannon, noted racist, pusher of far-right conspiracy theories, founder of far-right website Breitbart News, and fraudster (pardoned by Trump, natch). Bannon has openly been working to tie multiple far right groups together, especially in Europe, after getting punted by the Trump campaign.

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politican Geert Wilders: 'Geert Wilders doesn't threaten Dutch liberalism: he's defending it'.

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politician Eric Zemmour: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... evolution/

Douglas Murray wrote glowing coverage of noted far-right politician Matteo Salvini: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sal ... mmon-touch

Douglas Murray wrote a defence of noted far-right politician Marine Le Pen: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/is- ... far-right/

Douglas Murray likes writing lies about rape statistics in order to make out immigrants - particularly Muslims - are all dangerous rapists

Douglas Murray founded the Centre for Social Cohesion which became the Henry Jackson Society, described thusly by a co-founder:

Co-founder Matthew Jamison, who now works for YouGov, wrote in 2017 that he was ashamed of his involvement, having never imagined the Henry Jackson Society "would become a far-right, deeply anti-Muslim racist ... propaganda outfit to smear other cultures, religions and ethnic groups", further relating that: "The HJS for many years has relentlessly demonised Muslims and Islam"

Douglas Murray defended John Cleese's comment about how London isn't 'an English city' by citing census data regarding a minority of Londoners being "white British" - skin colour giving the game away.

Douglas Murray is so commonly linked to the far right that even his Wikipedia page has multiple sources on this

Douglas Murray likes posting shit like this on Twitter:




What I posted is not the sum total of the evidence against him, just all that I could easily find on a morning where I've had very little sleep and am functioning on pure irritation. Douglas Murray is a far right scumbag who repeatedly spouts far-right conspiracy theories, has published books featuring far right viewpoints and conspiracy theories, has a long and odious history regarding immigration and Islam, is cosying up to far right dictators and never met a far right politician he wasn't willing to go to bat for, and is 100% a genuine fucking cunt.

Sorry JM - I didn’t mean to disappear following this exchange - I’ve been preoccupied on real life stuff.

Really appreciate all the effort you put in to this post - it’s beyond my concentration levels to reciprocate - so I’ll do it one response at a time; the fact that you compiled all that together is something I’m grateful for and is precisely why I fucking love this bored.

On the first article you post- the one where the conservatives disowned Murray; Murray actually penned his own response- which feels like there’s some animosity between the two writers. In it; he admits he was wrong on the more vitriolic aspects - but stands his ground on other matters.

https://conservativehome.com/2011/10/18 ... goodmanch/

For my own perspective on Islamists- I’m an atheist, and I adore Christopher Hitchens and also Sam Harris. I don’t think Murray said anything that they wouldn’t/haven’t in the speech he gave in Holland. Western society is something worth preserving in my view- and Islamist have elements that aren’t compatible, and so should be highlighted as not being acceptable in the uk today; eg homophobia, women’s rights, secular laws being superior to all others etc.