Ireland in NZ

[Dan54]

Well I thought Pat T would be cover for bench, Barrett will go to lock, and Tuipulotu was training with ABs in Auckland so they may of just seen enough to suggest he can go on bench? If that of course, nothing to say noone else can't get called in Josh Dickson abd Frizell are training with them in Dunedin.

Not taking the piss Dan, but I'm struggling to recall more than a couple of his 40-odd tests when I've been even remotely impressed. Reckon Kiwias is spot on, he's had more than enough chances. I'd rather they'd called up a youngster on potential alone tbh, regardless of who the opposition is.

Me too Gumboot, but I didn't mean I thought he was good or anything, but on getting called up reasonably late, and probably wanting a lock, can't think of anyone else, just you would think he would have an idea of structures etc in team because he's been in there. Bit like Ennor last week I suspect, late in piece I think generally they look at who can fit in best at short notice?
Also have to look at someone who could possibly have to start in real emergency , or another covid case etc.

[Gumboot]

Well I thought Pat T would be cover for bench, Barrett will go to lock, and Tuipulotu was training with ABs in Auckland so they may of just seen enough to suggest he can go on bench? If that of course, nothing to say noone else can't get called in Josh Dickson abd Frizell are training with them in Dunedin.

Not taking the piss Dan, but I'm struggling to recall more than a couple of his 40-odd tests when I've been even remotely impressed. Reckon Kiwias is spot on, he's had more than enough chances. I'd rather they'd called up a youngster on potential alone tbh, regardless of who the opposition is.

Me too Gumboot, but I didn't mean I thought he was good or anything, but on getting called up reasonably late, and probably wanting a lock, can't think of anyone else, just you would think he would have an idea of structures etc in team because he's been in there. Bit like Ennor last week I suspect, late in piece I think generally they look at who can fit in best at short notice?
Also have to look at someone who could possibly have to start in real emergency , or another covid case etc.

Fair enough, hope PT smashes it if he gets on the field, but not gonna be holding my breath.

On the bright side, does this mean Scooter's now our nailed on number 6?

[Guy Smiley]

On the bright side, does this mean Scooter's now our nailed on number 6?

That's not a fucking bright side...


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/20 ... -camp.html

Whitelock led the All Blacks' massive defensive effort at Eden Park, completing 20 tackles with no misses.

While his unavailability will force a change to the starting forward pack at Dunedin, Foster may be tempted to shift Scott Barrett from blindside flanker into the second row, selecting a specialist loose forward and bringing Tuipulotu off the bench.

3 locks named for the MAB team and they've beaten Ireland already.... why not one of those guys?

[Flockwitt]

No question Sam W was the lynch pin of our pack last Saturday. Massive loss.

The problem is finding something that seem like it worked and now having to mix in completely new combinations. Very far from ideal.

[Gumboot]

No question Sam W was the lynch pin of our pack last Saturday. Massive loss.

The problem is finding something that seem like it worked and now having to mix in completely new combinations. Very far from ideal.

Agreed. Five minutes ago Barrett was our third best test lock, now he's our starting blindside. But who is now our second best 6? Sowakula, Akira, Frizell?

[Guy Smiley]

No question Sam W was the lynch pin of our pack last Saturday. Massive loss.

The problem is finding something that seem like it worked and now having to mix in completely new combinations. Very far from ideal.

Agreed. Five minutes ago Barrett was our third best test lock, now he's our starting blindside. But who is now our second best 6? Sowakula, Akira, Frizell?

Scooter and Sam W tackled like demons the other night. I'd play Scooter at lock and hope he can maintain that tackle intensity.

I don't believe he's out starting blindside and hesitate to take you seriously when you make statements like that. I think you're up to mischief.

I'd rejig the backrow to add more heft there. Cane to 6, Papaili at 7 and one of our real 8s starting. Ardie on the bench.

[Gumboot]

No question Sam W was the lynch pin of our pack last Saturday. Massive loss.

The problem is finding something that seem like it worked and now having to mix in completely new combinations. Very far from ideal.

Agreed. Five minutes ago Barrett was our third best test lock, now he's our starting blindside. But who is now our second best 6? Sowakula, Akira, Frizell?

Scooter and Sam W tackled like demons the other night. I'd play Scooter at lock and hope he can maintain that tackle intensity.

I don't believe he's out starting blindside and hesitate to take you seriously when you make statements like that. I think you're up to mischief.

I'd rejig the backrow to add more heft there. Cane to 6, Papaili at 7 and one of our real 8s starting. Ardie on the bench.

Guy, I've told you before, I don't troll. At least not about shit this important.

[Guy Smiley]

The Doubt runs deep within me

[Flockwitt]

I'm not so hung up in attaching labels to people. If it works it works sort of thing. I'd like to have seen Scooter in at 6 again because it seems to work against the game Ireland played. If having a strong tackler at 6 and 7 and a mobile 8 to cover tackle works against the Irish game plan then play them again or attempt a like for like replacement. Which I think is Scott to lock and another tackler at 6.

I remember when we lost in Ireland last November and the game was lost up front, their 6 Doris being significant. The ABs need a pack with a hard working edge and I'd be looking for that with whoever is selected.

[Dan54]

Not taking the piss Dan, but I'm struggling to recall more than a couple of his 40-odd tests when I've been even remotely impressed. Reckon Kiwias is spot on, he's had more than enough chances. I'd rather they'd called up a youngster on potential alone tbh, regardless of who the opposition is.

Me too Gumboot, but I didn't mean I thought he was good or anything, but on getting called up reasonably late, and probably wanting a lock, can't think of anyone else, just you would think he would have an idea of structures etc in team because he's been in there. Bit like Ennor last week I suspect, late in piece I think generally they look at who can fit in best at short notice?
Also have to look at someone who could possibly have to start in real emergency , or another covid case etc.

Fair enough, hope PT smashes it if he gets on the field, but not gonna be holding my breath.

On the bright side, does this mean Scooter's now our nailed on number 6?

No I guessing Scooter will go to lock so PT is on bench. I think if Sam W played he would of started at 6 this week though.

[Dan54]

No question Sam W was the lynch pin of our pack last Saturday. Massive loss.

The problem is finding something that seem like it worked and now having to mix in completely new combinations. Very far from ideal.

Agreed. Five minutes ago Barrett was our third best test lock, now he's our starting blindside. But who is now our second best 6? Sowakula, Akira, Frizell?

Scooter and Sam W tackled like demons the other night. I'd play Scooter at lock and hope he can maintain that tackle intensity.

I don't believe he's out starting blindside and hesitate to take you seriously when you make statements like that. I think you're up to mischief.

I'd rejig the backrow to add more heft there. Cane to 6, Papaili at 7 and one of our real 8s starting. Ardie on the bench.

See Guy, I don't understand. Ardie Savea was probably MOTM for ABs last week, has been arguably the best forward consistently for the ABs last year at no8, and now we put him on bench or move him to 7?? I not quite sure what the thinking is, I read that he plays like a 7 etc, and not an 8.
You want to know something, I not sure I can recall where in rugby it says an 8 has to play a certain way, or a 7 either for that matter. If he is our best player playing at 8 why would we not leave him there, and certainly why drop him too bench??
See once we had 8s like Mexted who were very good lineout exponents, and played almost like a loose lock, then we had Buck who was just a hard carrying bastard etc, then Zinzan who was a wide ranging player etc etc. I not sure if people understand often in NZ we have changed toe way position are played and don't just put them all in boxes, and has been a strength of ours! Remember how we chnged wing play with Jonah a number 8 who went to wing?

[Ymx]

I’d like to see Cullen Grace at 8, as a line out exponent. It was huge for us with Read at 8 who was a big line out target.

Ardie at 7

And if we have to keep Cane, put him at 6.

Sotutu as bench option

[Guy Smiley]

I’d like to see Cullen Grace at 8, as a line out exponent. It was huge for us with Read at 8 who was a big line out target.

Ardie at 7

And if we have to keep Cane, put him at 6.

Sotutu as bench option

That's my best option but I've got a feeling there's no chance of a player being shifted from MABs to ABs.

Dan, lots of words mate... I don't think Ardie is a top class 8. He lacks height and weight. He's much more of a 7 and I'd have him and Papaili sharing that role myself, both of them offer good backrow cover off the bench.

[Gumboot]

Nah, Ardie's been probably our best forward for the past couple of years while playing at 8. Not sure why losing a lock necessitates a complete overhaul of our loosies, tbh. I really liked what I saw of the current combination on Saturday, and hope they start again this weekend. And as for writing off Cane as our starting openside... madness. There's nobody I'd want wearing the no.7 jersey against the likes of France and the Boks rather than the skipper.

[Kiwias]

Not taking the piss Dan, but I'm struggling to recall more than a couple of his 40-odd tests when I've been even remotely impressed. Reckon Kiwias is spot on, he's had more than enough chances. I'd rather they'd called up a youngster on potential alone tbh, regardless of who the opposition is.

Me too Gumboot, but I didn't mean I thought he was good or anything, but on getting called up reasonably late, and probably wanting a lock, can't think of anyone else, just you would think he would have an idea of structures etc in team because he's been in there. Bit like Ennor last week I suspect, late in piece I think generally they look at who can fit in best at short notice?
Also have to look at someone who could possibly have to start in real emergency , or another covid case etc.

Fair enough, hope PT smashes it if he gets on the field, but not gonna be holding my breath.

On the bright side, does this mean Scooter's now our nailed on number 6?

Several years ago I was one of PT's biggest fans, figuring he had the physique to become a genuine world-class lock, but he never made the step up from being a decent lock in SR. Foster needs to bring in a youngster, perhaps from the MAB.

[Gumboot]

Several years ago I was one of PT's biggest fans, figuring he had the physique to become a genuine world-class lock, but he never made the step up from being a decent lock in SR. Foster needs to bring in a youngster, perhaps from the MAB.

Absolutely.

[Guy Smiley]

Nah, Ardie's been probably our best forward for the past couple of years while playing at 8. Not sure why losing a lock necessitates a complete overhaul of our loosies, tbh. I really liked what I saw of the current combination on Saturday, and hope they start again this weekend. And as for writing off Cane as our starting openside... madness. There's nobody I'd want wearing the no.7 jersey against the likes of France and the Boks rather than the skipper.

I'm not one of those who don't rate Cane as a player. I think he suffers a bit in public perception in having to fill Richie's spot and that's a massive shadow hanging over a player. I do think we need to be actively working on his replacement with some urgency though... he's nearing the end of his career regarding his age but more importantly, and this is a worry for him as a player, one more hard knock around his neck could spell a forced end.

Ardie is a freak. He's an absolute weapon of a loosie and probably one of the most damaging players in rugby on the burst. Does he inspire you as a lineout weapon, though? I see him as more of a ground level destroyer myself and I think he's almost wasted playing at 8 when he looks for all the world like a terrifying 7.

I don't know why Sotutu wasn't selected for last week as I'd have him starting for this series with an eye on Grace moving into the test side and potentially owning the 8 jersey later.

As for an overhaul of the backrow... Foster sprung a surprise naming Scooter at 6 to kick things off. Losing two locks from your original squad means you have to rejig... unless you want to leave Scooter at 6 and throw the dice for the second row. Move Scooter back to lock and you need someone for 6, if you're going to do that then how do you best find a good balance of power and damaging defense? Talking about selections is entertaining, after all.

There's a question mark over incumbency for these spots too... prior to this series most would probably have Akira pencilled in at 6 but the last few weeks of the SupeRugby season might have shown him up a bit. Maybe Foster has doubts over Sotutu as well. The other variable is the injury to Ethan Blackadder and how that opened up the backrow for selections. Papaili has done everything right this year and continues to improve and impress.

Just for laughs, imagine a starting backrow of (6,7,8) Blackadder, Ardie and Grace, with Papaili and Sotutu on the bench. For even more laughs, thinking back to his junior days, imagine Sotutu at 12.

[Gumboot]

tl;dr

Dan, lots of words mate...

But in all seriousness, yes I'd keep Scooter at 6 - would far rather have him there than Akira or even a fully fit Blackadder. And I'm with Kiwias - reckon any one of Dickson, Walker-Leawere and Selby-Rickit would do the jersey proud if called up from the MAB. Scooter deserves to get more of a run at blindside to see if he's the answer... just as Frizell and Akira got theirs.

[Guy Smiley]

He’s a card magnet though.

[Gumboot]

He’s a card magnet though.

I think he has one red and one yellow in 49 tests. Hardly magnetic.

[Guy Smiley]

He’s a card magnet though.

I think he has one red and one yellow in 49 tests. Hardly magnetic.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/super- ... 4IY3GC2SA/

He’s a card magnet…

[Gumboot]

He’s a card magnet though.

I think he has one red and one yellow in 49 tests. Hardly magnetic.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/super- ... 4IY3GC2SA/

He’s a card magnet…

May as well drop him altogether then, if he's such a big risk.

[Guy Smiley]

One down, two to go

[Dan54]

I’d like to see Cullen Grace at 8, as a line out exponent. It was huge for us with Read at 8 who was a big line out target.

Ardie at 7

And if we have to keep Cane, put him at 6.

Sotutu as bench option

That's my best option but I've got a feeling there's no chance of a player being shifted from MABs to ABs.

Dan, lots of words mate... I don't think Ardie is a top class 8. He lacks height and weight. He's much more of a 7 and I'd have him and Papaili sharing that role myself, both of them offer good backrow cover off the bench.

Ok mate, we disagree, I thought Ardie had a great game last week, and at 8, just in my opinion same as last year. Still I guess we wll see rugby in a different light.

[Certain Navigator]

I’d like to see Cullen Grace at 8, as a line out exponent. It was huge for us with Read at 8 who was a big line out target.

Ardie at 7

And if we have to keep Cane, put him at 6.

Sotutu as bench option

That's my best option but I've got a feeling there's no chance of a player being shifted from MABs to ABs.

Dan, lots of words mate... I don't think Ardie is a top class 8. He lacks height and weight. He's much more of a 7 and I'd have him and Papaili sharing that role myself, both of them offer good backrow cover off the bench.

Ok mate, we disagree, I thought Ardie had a great game last week, and at 8, just in my opinion same as last year. Still I guess we wll see rugby in a different light.

The problem with Savea (in any position) is that he plays like a big kid in the U13 grade — just puts the blinkers on, never passes, and tries to run through the opposition on his own. This works when the opposition is weak or not on song, but also often falters because they find it easier to shut down individuals than a team working together. So Savea's best chance of success is when players are tiring, which is why I'd have him in a permanent bench spot.

Cane is at the opposite end of the spectrum to Savea — he sticks to the team pattern so rigidly he's hardly ever noticed. Which of course gets him criticised by those who associate ball carrying with playing well. We've seen this movie before, starring Reuben Thorne...

[Dan54]

That's my best option but I've got a feeling there's no chance of a player being shifted from MABs to ABs.

Dan, lots of words mate... I don't think Ardie is a top class 8. He lacks height and weight. He's much more of a 7 and I'd have him and Papaili sharing that role myself, both of them offer good backrow cover off the bench.

Ok mate, we disagree, I thought Ardie had a great game last week, and at 8, just in my opinion same as last year. Still I guess we wll see rugby in a different light.

The problem with Savea (in any position) is that he plays like a big kid in the U13 grade — just puts the blinkers on, never passes, and tries to run through the opposition on his own. This works when the opposition is weak or not on song, but also often falters because they find it easier to shut down individuals than a team working together. So Savea's best chance of success is when players are tiring, which is why I'd have him in a permanent bench spot.

Cane is at the opposite end of the spectrum to Savea — he sticks to the team pattern so rigidly he's hardly ever noticed. Which of course gets him criticised by those who associate ball carrying with playing well. We've seen this movie before, starring Reuben Thorne...

I agree on Cane, but disagree on Savea if you don't think he passes, you may not have seen very many games he plays , but he often runs players into position and passes, and always has.
I just find it quite strange when we have Guy saying the player who has been very close to our best player in a lot of tests for last couple of years (and not to mention the best super player) should be a bench player. And I don't get the he's a bit shorter then Read was, but about same weight as him, very similar size to Rodney So'oalo, Zinzan etc etc. He's not that small.

[Gumboot]

I agree on Cane, but disagree on Savea if you don't think he passes, you may not have seen very many games he plays , but he often runs players into position and passes, and always has.
I just find it quite strange when we have Guy saying the player who has been very close to our best player in a lot of tests for last couple of years (and not to mention the best super player) should be a bench player. And I don't get the he's a bit shorter then Read was, but about same weight as him, very similar size to Rodney So'oalo, Zinzan etc etc. He's not that small.

Same size as Buck, too... and Lochore. Seems to be about the ideal size for a number 8.

[Gumboot]

[Gumboot]

Very happy they've kept the same starting backline, with Fakatava set to make his debut from the bench.

Not so sure about the pack, but at least Tuipulotu isn't starting.

[Kiwias]

Good to see Fakatava and Jordan in the mix but PT can GTFO.

[Gumboot]

Fair to say Ennor's probably played his way out - for the short term, at least?

[Kiwias]

Fair to say Ennor's probably played his way out - for the short term, at least?

With Havili, ALB, and Goodhue all coming back at some point, I reckon so.

[Kiwias]

Very happy they've kept the same starting backline, with Fakatava set to make his debut from the bench.

Not so sure about the pack, but at least Tuipulotu isn't starting.

I'm not sold on the idea of having three openside flankers in our backrow.

[Flockwitt]

Very happy they've kept the same starting backline, with Fakatava set to make his debut from the bench.

Not so sure about the pack, but at least Tuipulotu isn't starting.

I'm not sold on the idea of having three openside flankers in our backrow.

It’s not ideal. I think the ABs are vulnerable:
1. The Irish are too good a side not to fix their set piece regardless for this test.
2. The Irish were able to make easy meters against the ABs in the first test when they got their act together. If they do the same this weekend it’s going to be tough. We’re not going to get another succession of try line saves.

[Gumboot]

Both sides now confirmed.

All Blacks: Jordie Barrett, Sevu Reece, Rieko Ioane, Quinn Tupaea, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea, Sam Cane (c), Dalton Papalii, Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Codie Taylor, George Bower.
Reserves: Samisoni Taukei'aho, Aidan Ross, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Pita Gus Sowakula, Folau Fakatava, Richie Mo'unga, Will Jordan.

Ireland: Hugo Keenan, Mack Hansen, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, James Lowe, Johnny Sexton (c), Jamison Gibson-Park; Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier, Peter O’Mahony, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Tadhg Furlong, Dan Sheehan, Andrew Porter.
Reserves: Rob Herring, Cian Healy, Finlay Bealham, Kieran Treadwell, Jack Conan, Conor Murray, Joey Carbery, Bundee Aki.

[Ymx]

Three open sides.

That’s a mobile back row, with the least mobile playing 7.

But to be honest, it’s not too bad. It’s only really the scrum where they fix their position. So can mostly play their natural game.

[Ymx]

I haven’t followed closely, but Papalii certainly has the height 1.93, is he any good at lineout receiver?

[Guy Smiley]

I haven’t followed closely, but Papalii certainly has the height 1.93, is he any good at lineout receiver?

It messes with his hair too much.

[Grandpa]

This game will be won in the mind. Do NZ have the same mindset as last week where they were out to show Ireland you don't mess with us in NZ?

Did Ireland really believe they would win? Last week the All Blacks had the advantage of being emotionally primed... this week, Ireland will be the ones with adrenaline... and belief...

[Uncle fester]

You lads are gas for constructing narratives. Ireland players are dropping like flies. I expect a lot of huff and puff but similar result to last week.