Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[Tichtheid]

Right. Specifically in this case, though, the twin pillars of the dramatic character change and her unwavering loyalty to the sport are both important facts when looking at the SRU's actions. It's not just humanising the story - which is important, I agree! - but providing much needed context as to how she was vulnerable & easily convinced to do things her body was telling her not to, and how obvious her decline was to everybody.

The Spire is well known to the Scottish rugby community, it's where professional players are patched up and mended. I think there is a huge point made in the article about how they fixed her broken bones but she was not offered any help for the brain injury. I don't know if it's the case that Stuart Hogg or Finn Russell would have been offered help if it had been them who had suffered the injuries, but the women's game is not on the same level of funding, not by a long chalk.

When Nasi Manu came to play for Edinburgh he was amazed that there was no one who offered psychological coaching/preparation for games. Richard Cockerill brought in his own lineout coach because there wasn't a dedicated appointment at that time. This is just a snippet that shows how far behind the SRU is in terms of preparing professional players - we've only just set up proper academies and the tier below Edinburgh and Glasgow is only a year old.
It's not a stretch to think they would be well behind what is required in caring for players who suffered serious head injuries.

[inactionman]

Right. Specifically in this case, though, the twin pillars of the dramatic character change and her unwavering loyalty to the sport are both important facts when looking at the SRU's actions. It's not just humanising the story - which is important, I agree! - but providing much needed context as to how she was vulnerable & easily convinced to do things her body was telling her not to, and how obvious her decline was to everybody.

Apart from being a pretty gut-wrenching read it's an interesting article which goes to show how commitment and physical courage can be so - if not too strong and pointed a term - abused. I fully appreciate no-one in the SRU wished this course of events, but it required someone, somewhere to step in and both protect the player from the worst of her hyper-dedicated self and actually make sure that professional pressures didn't trump physical safety. This should be par for the course for any organisation.

I was perturbed to read just how little influence the parents and family had upon the treatment and management of her as a player - that's such a tragic element to this, the parents always left thinking they knew something was badly amiss and they couldn't ( I won't use 'wouldn't' as they tried all sorts) do anything about it, and that they let her return to training camp under the clearly incorrect in hindsight assumption the SRU would know what to do best. I'd hope other families, upon reading articles such as this, would have no compunction about dragging their kids/partners out of situations such as this - remove the misplaced/unbalanced senses of duty the player might feel from the decision.

[Blackmac]

Whilst a tragic story it isn't hard to pick a few holes in the claims the family are making. They seem to be linking her decline to the consequences of the two injuries suffered on Scotland duty. It's not a stretch to suggest that she could have picked up many similar knocks throughout her rugby career that maybe contributed to the situation.

I also don't agree with the comparisons with Finn and Hoggy. These are pretty much superstar sportsmen at the top of a lucrative professional game, therefore highly valued assets. Regardless of the merits of the women's international game, Siobhan was very much an amateur, playing in an amateur environment. It hardly realistic to expect that she would have access to the same resources.

It's also quite clear that, like many during Covid, she was badly let down by the NHS. She is one of millions who have not received the standard of care she might have expected during easier times.

All in all a very tragic tale but I'm not convinced the SRU are as culpable as that article suggested

[GogLais]

What struck me was that her illness seemed to progress far more quickly than the other cases we’ve heard about. Was she desperately unlucky? I’m still surprised that the article didn’t give more medical detail on her condition. I can understand that the family mightn’t want it revealed but it’s the crux of the matter really.

[Blackmac]

What struck me was that her illness seemed to progress far more quickly than the other cases we’ve heard about. Was she desperately unlucky? I’m still surprised that the article didn’t give more medical detail on her condition. I can understand that the family mightn’t want it revealed but it’s the crux of the matter really.

I think it's a case of no one was willing or able to try and get to the bottom of what was causing her problems. Now they will never be able to find out with any real certainty which will make their claim against the SRU almost impossible to succeed.

[GogLais]

What struck me was that her illness seemed to progress far more quickly than the other cases we’ve heard about. Was she desperately unlucky? I’m still surprised that the article didn’t give more medical detail on her condition. I can understand that the family mightn’t want it revealed but it’s the crux of the matter really.

I think it's a case of no one was willing or able to try and get to the bottom of what was causing her problems. Now they will never be able to find out with any real certainty which will make their claim against the SRU almost impossible to succeed.

I’ve just thought - surely there would have been a PM and inquest?

[Blackmac]

What struck me was that her illness seemed to progress far more quickly than the other cases we’ve heard about. Was she desperately unlucky? I’m still surprised that the article didn’t give more medical detail on her condition. I can understand that the family mightn’t want it revealed but it’s the crux of the matter really.

I think it's a case of no one was willing or able to try and get to the bottom of what was causing her problems. Now they will never be able to find out with any real certainty which will make their claim against the SRU almost impossible to succeed.

I’ve just thought - surely there would have been a PM and inquest?

There would have been a PM which would have established the primary causes of death. It seems she took her own life so that will have essentially been the primary cause. Brain samples would be taken but only to see if there was an injury or illness relevant to her death but it unlikely it could provide the answers the family are looking for.

We don't hold inquests in Scotland. The only possibility would be a Fatal accident Inquiry, but that is only in serious cases of negligence leading to death.

[Niegs]

What struck me was that her illness seemed to progress far more quickly than the other cases we’ve heard about. Was she desperately unlucky? I’m still surprised that the article didn’t give more medical detail on her condition. I can understand that the family mightn’t want it revealed but it’s the crux of the matter really.

I think it's a case of no one was willing or able to try and get to the bottom of what was causing her problems. Now they will never be able to find out with any real certainty which will make their claim against the SRU almost impossible to succeed.

I don't feel like reading it again, but was there maybe a second impact in a short space not considered / played down by her and/or others?

There's a timeline of events of what led to the death of the girl in Canada. It's a horrible sequence of events and reading now should highlight the moments where it could have been prevented, but I don't think we were well informed 10 years ago - any of us. Even now, I wonder if most know of all the signs and precautionary measures because I'm so deep into it that I risk assuming everyone else is (and certainly won't be now that I'm a youth coordinator for a club!)

https://vancouversun.com/sports/timelin ... final-days

[Line6 HXFX]

Think it is fair to say Rugby, its supporters, its oversight, everything about this industry is ill-equipped to deal with this. I mean its supporters are great at shouting down people, like a pack of brainless morons on Social Media because "Rugby is under threat".. but that is about the limit of its response.

Does anyone want to pay money to watch basically innocents like Lee Halfpenny, George North, Ryan Jones, Loius Rees Zammit stumble around a pitch with a concussion, knowing what we know now?
I honestly think I would rather Wales lost at home, to England by 60points, for 10 years, than someone like Ryan Jones, Lee Halfpenny or George North get dementia.
I am not kidding.
It isn't worth it.
Look I feel the same way about Boxing or MMA, I think the people who watch that shit are low rent fuckers too. The people left supporting it, hoping there is a knockout are just a bunch of jeering bloodlusting tossposts.
Rugby is sullied now. It is a contact sport or it is nothing. Impacts are the game.
No exaggeration, to say there are now Wards and wards of former players with this.
But Rugby ain't going to change.
Because there is nothing it can do, other than get to a place where they can say "well they know the risks".
The laziest, meanest, most minimal thing they can possibly do, short of rolling out Joe Marler whenever there is more shocking revelations from former players, to make it about him.

They are reintroducing the 20 minute red card ffs.


You can talk or you can walk.

[Tichtheid]

I also don't agree with the comparisons with Finn and Hoggy. These are pretty much superstar sportsmen at the top of a lucrative professional game, therefore highly valued assets. Regardless of the merits of the women's international game, Siobhan was very much an amateur, playing in an amateur environment. It hardly realistic to expect that she would have access to the same resources.

She was a Scottish international player whose other injuries had been treated at the Spire

They were getting nowhere with the NHS, so Neil searched the website for the Spire private hospital in Edinburgh. Siobhan had been treated there for physical injuries numerous times. They had a neurologist and psychiatrist. He called Dr McCrae. Could Siobhan be treated at the Spire? “What Carrie said was, ‘No, that is not something we can offer,’ ” Neil says.

[GogLais]

I think it's a case of no one was willing or able to try and get to the bottom of what was causing her problems. Now they will never be able to find out with any real certainty which will make their claim against the SRU almost impossible to succeed.

I’ve just thought - surely there would have been a PM and inquest?

There would have been a PM which would have established the primary causes of death. It seems she took her own life so that will have essentially been the primary cause. Brain samples would be taken but only to see if there was an injury or illness relevant to her death but it unlikely it could provide the answers the family are looking for.

We don't hold inquests in Scotland. The only possibility would be a Fatal accident Inquiry, but that is only in serious cases of negligence leading to death.

Ok, thanks.

[weegie01]

Quote from George Taylor when he was forced to retire at the age of 25 after a couple of seasons struggling with concussion..

“Throughout this all, the support of both the Edinburgh Rugby and Scottish Rugby medical teams has been massive and I’ll forever be thankful for their ongoing care and support.”

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... 25-3526597

I recall Dave Denton being fulsome in his praise of the SRU when he was forced to retire with concussion. More recently, Lewis Carmichael retired on the advice of the medical team due to repeated concussions and moved onto the SRU 'life after rugby' support programme.

I know other SRU contracted (albeit male) players who have had concussion and indeed mental health issues. Which is why what happened with Siobhan Cattigan is such a surprise. It is nothing like the norm from the SRU.

In some way or another the system failed Siobhan Cattigan. This is a tragedy, but what happened seems to be more specific to this case rather than an endemic disregard within the SRU. Hopefully lessons will be learned from whatever happened and future tragedies avoided.

[Biffer]

Quote from George Taylor when he was forced to retire at the age of 25 after a couple of seasons struggling with concussion..

“Throughout this all, the support of both the Edinburgh Rugby and Scottish Rugby medical teams has been massive and I’ll forever be thankful for their ongoing care and support.”

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... 25-3526597

I recall Dave Denton being fulsome in his praise of the SRU when he was forced to retire with concussion. More recently, Lewis Carmichael retired on the advice of the medical team due to repeated concussions and moved onto the SRU 'life after rugby' support programme.

I know other SRU contracted (albeit male) players who have had concussion and indeed mental health issues. Which is why what happened with Siobhan Cattigan is such a surprise. It is nothing like the norm from the SRU.

In some way or another the system failed Siobhan Cattigan. This is a tragedy, but what happened seems to be more specific to this case rather than an endemic disregard within the SRU. Hopefully lessons will be learned from whatever happened and future tragedies avoided.

The worry is that it's evidence of a past 'womens game doesn't matter' attitude from the SRU. That, I might believe.

[robmatic]

Quote from George Taylor when he was forced to retire at the age of 25 after a couple of seasons struggling with concussion..

“Throughout this all, the support of both the Edinburgh Rugby and Scottish Rugby medical teams has been massive and I’ll forever be thankful for their ongoing care and support.”

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... 25-3526597

I recall Dave Denton being fulsome in his praise of the SRU when he was forced to retire with concussion. More recently, Lewis Carmichael retired on the advice of the medical team due to repeated concussions and moved onto the SRU 'life after rugby' support programme.

I know other SRU contracted (albeit male) players who have had concussion and indeed mental health issues. Which is why what happened with Siobhan Cattigan is such a surprise. It is nothing like the norm from the SRU.

In some way or another the system failed Siobhan Cattigan. This is a tragedy, but what happened seems to be more specific to this case rather than an endemic disregard within the SRU. Hopefully lessons will be learned from whatever happened and future tragedies avoided.

There is quite possibly a difference in the systems in place between the men's game and the women's. The men are fully professional and employees of the SRU while the women mostly aren't.

[JM2K6]

Classic REFRY, use a serious issue as a cover for abusing an English player because he, erm, talked about his concussion issues as a current player in response to Ryan Jones talking about his problems as a player

[Blackmac]

I also don't agree with the comparisons with Finn and Hoggy. These are pretty much superstar sportsmen at the top of a lucrative professional game, therefore highly valued assets. Regardless of the merits of the women's international game, Siobhan was very much an amateur, playing in an amateur environment. It hardly realistic to expect that she would have access to the same resources.

She was a Scottish international player whose other injuries had been treated at the Spire

They were getting nowhere with the NHS, so Neil searched the website for the Spire private hospital in Edinburgh. Siobhan had been treated there for physical injuries numerous times. They had a neurologist and psychiatrist. He called Dr McCrae. Could Siobhan be treated at the Spire? “What Carrie said was, ‘No, that is not something we can offer,’ ” Neil says.

We know she was a Scottish international, I did read the article. But as I said, strictly amateur and providing little in the way of revenue to the SRU. Harsh but true.

I would expect her to have injuries sustained on international duty, treated appropriately, however I think you are stretching if you think for a minute she would receive the same level of care as some of the male internationals who put bums on seats, bring in sponsorship etc.

The family made the comparison, which I think is unrealistic

[Blackmac]

Quote from George Taylor when he was forced to retire at the age of 25 after a couple of seasons struggling with concussion..

“Throughout this all, the support of both the Edinburgh Rugby and Scottish Rugby medical teams has been massive and I’ll forever be thankful for their ongoing care and support.”

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... 25-3526597

I recall Dave Denton being fulsome in his praise of the SRU when he was forced to retire with concussion. More recently, Lewis Carmichael retired on the advice of the medical team due to repeated concussions and moved onto the SRU 'life after rugby' support programme.

I know other SRU contracted (albeit male) players who have had concussion and indeed mental health issues. Which is why what happened with Siobhan Cattigan is such a surprise. It is nothing like the norm from the SRU.

In some way or another the system failed Siobhan Cattigan. This is a tragedy, but what happened seems to be more specific to this case rather than an endemic disregard within the SRU. Hopefully lessons will be learned from whatever happened and future tragedies avoided.

As I said earlier I think the greatest part of the system that failed her was likely the NHS, much like it has failed many during the pandemic.

[Tichtheid]

I also don't agree with the comparisons with Finn and Hoggy. These are pretty much superstar sportsmen at the top of a lucrative professional game, therefore highly valued assets. Regardless of the merits of the women's international game, Siobhan was very much an amateur, playing in an amateur environment. It hardly realistic to expect that she would have access to the same resources.

She was a Scottish international player whose other injuries had been treated at the Spire

They were getting nowhere with the NHS, so Neil searched the website for the Spire private hospital in Edinburgh. Siobhan had been treated there for physical injuries numerous times. They had a neurologist and psychiatrist. He called Dr McCrae. Could Siobhan be treated at the Spire? “What Carrie said was, ‘No, that is not something we can offer,’ ” Neil says.

We know she was a Scottish international, I did read the article. But as I said, strictly amateur and providing little in the way of revenue to the SRU. Harsh but true.

I would expect her to have injuries sustained on international duty, treated appropriately, however I think you are stretching if you think for a minute she would receive the same level of care as some of the male internationals who put bums on seats, bring in sponsorship etc.

The family made the comparison, which I think is unrealistic

The head injuries described in the article were sustained whilst training or playing for Scotland, as were the other injuries which were treated at the Spire.

Siobhan Cattigan wasn't paid at that time, others in the team were on contracts, though imo there is no difference in terms of duty of care owed to two players in the same side when one is one is being paid and the other is not. The Scots Law documents I've just looked up apply to law firms (it was a very quick Google) where interns have to be paid at least minimum wage, suggesting they would also be covered by other employee rights legislation. If the law applies there I suspect it applies across Scotland.

Further, I think it would be difficult for the SRU to discriminate between paid and unpaid players on their insurance policies.

I last played just as the game went open, but the team I played for in France was fully insured and I received dental treatment after a shoulder in the puss knocked out a tooth. The club's insurance paid for this in its entirety. I would hope the SRU have policies as least as good as an amateur French club side nearly 30 years ago

I feel uncomfortable talking about this case, it just feels wrong. However I'm quite happy to talk about why women should receive the same level of care as male players

[Blackmac]

She was a Scottish international player whose other injuries had been treated at the Spire

They were getting nowhere with the NHS, so Neil searched the website for the Spire private hospital in Edinburgh. Siobhan had been treated there for physical injuries numerous times. They had a neurologist and psychiatrist. He called Dr McCrae. Could Siobhan be treated at the Spire? “What Carrie said was, ‘No, that is not something we can offer,’ ” Neil says.

We know she was a Scottish international, I did read the article. But as I said, strictly amateur and providing little in the way of revenue to the SRU. Harsh but true.

I would expect her to have injuries sustained on international duty, treated appropriately, however I think you are stretching if you think for a minute she would receive the same level of care as some of the male internationals who put bums on seats, bring in sponsorship etc.

The family made the comparison, which I think is unrealistic

The head injuries described in the article were sustained whilst training or playing for Scotland, as were the other injuries which were treated at the Spire.

Siobhan Cattigan wasn't paid at that time, others in the team were on contracts, though imo there is no difference in terms of duty of care owed to two players in the same side when one is one is being paid and the other is not. The Scots Law documents I've just looked up apply to law firms (it was a very quick Google) where interns have to be paid at least minimum wage, suggesting they would also be covered by other employee rights legislation. If the law applies there I suspect it applies across Scotland.

Further, I think it would be difficult for the SRU to discriminate between paid and unpaid players on their insurance policies.

I last played just as the game went open, but the team I played for in France was fully insured and I received dental treatment after a shoulder in the puss knocked out a tooth. The club's insurance paid for this in its entirety. I would hope the SRU have policies as least as good as an amateur French club side nearly 30 years ago

I feel uncomfortable talking about this case, it just feels wrong. However I'm quite happy to talk about why women should receive the same level of care as male players

Totally agree with your last paragraph and I would hope, as the ladies get contracts that should certainly be the case. I just suspect that in reality that previously wasnt so.

I'm the same as you, last played at the same time. I was in the RAF at the time and they insisted if you played club rugby you had to have full medical and critical illness cover. Luckily the club I played for picked up the tab and I was treated privately when I broke my back.

[Niegs]

[Line6 HXFX]

Still try not to watch rugby.

Been playing a lot of guitar, hiking (funnily enough, really helps the back), cooking, debating shit online.
Making the Mrs laugh trying and making her happy.
Been looking at a lot of watch collecting channels on YouTube.

Proud to say, no one got hurt, no one got or risked early onset senile dementia, just to entertain me... for 80 minutes in the last three months.
Honestly, I feel less sullied by rugby.

[Bullet]

We had an ex-players meet during the summer and agreed that ought to do something to help todays players at the club.
After over 30 years of bangs to the head I'm starting with 'running' the M25 for charity to raise money for those living with dementia, might want to avoid the area a week on Sunday

[Uncle fester]

Not unexpected news.
Gerry Thornley: Rugby’s existential crisis worsens amid new dementia and MND findings

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -in-rugby/

[Guy Smiley]

The US National Institute of Health has determined there is a causal link between repeated blows to the head and CTE....

link

The NIH is the largest biomedical research agency in the world, and the decision to rewrite their official guidance on CTE has been described by campaign groups as a tipping point in the debate about the risks of playing collision sports. In the NIH’s view, research to date suggests the causal link between repeated traumatic brain injury and CTE is clear and unequivocal.


That position is at odds with the one held by the Concussion in Sport Group, which is supported by Fifa, World Rugby, and the IOC, among others. The concussion consensus documents published by CISG have consistently downplayed the connection between CTE and brain injuries sustained in sport. The most recent one, from 2017, states “to date, a cause and effect relationship between CTE and concussions or exposure to contact sports has not been established”, a position that has been cited by multiple sports federations as they defend themselves against both legal challenges and calls to reform.

WR are going to have to face this directly soon. They can't get away with squirming around the issue for much longer.

[MungoMan]

The US National Institute of Health has determined there is a causal link between repeated blows to the head and CTE....

link

The NIH is the largest biomedical research agency in the world, and the decision to rewrite their official guidance on CTE has been described by campaign groups as a tipping point in the debate about the risks of playing collision sports. In the NIH’s view, research to date suggests the causal link between repeated traumatic brain injury and CTE is clear and unequivocal.


That position is at odds with the one held by the Concussion in Sport Group, which is supported by Fifa, World Rugby, and the IOC, among others. The concussion consensus documents published by CISG have consistently downplayed the connection between CTE and brain injuries sustained in sport. The most recent one, from 2017, states “to date, a cause and effect relationship between CTE and concussions or exposure to contact sports has not been established”, a position that has been cited by multiple sports federations as they defend themselves against both legal challenges and calls to reform.

WR are going to have to face this directly soon. They can't get away with squirming around the issue for much longer.

Yep, WR plus the governing bodies of other codes. The suicide in August this year of former Strayan RL player and coach Paul Green provides yet another example of why that is so.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-24/ ... /101568964

[JM2K6]

The bigger threat to rugby is probably the brain damage caused by the repeat impacts that aren't direct to the head, because it's much harder to legislate for.

[Torquemada 1420]

The US National Institute of Health has determined there is a causal link between repeated blows to the head and CTE....

link

The NIH is the largest biomedical research agency in the world, and the decision to rewrite their official guidance on CTE has been described by campaign groups as a tipping point in the debate about the risks of playing collision sports. In the NIH’s view, research to date suggests the causal link between repeated traumatic brain injury and CTE is clear and unequivocal.


That position is at odds with the one held by the Concussion in Sport Group, which is supported by Fifa, World Rugby, and the IOC, among others. The concussion consensus documents published by CISG have consistently downplayed the connection between CTE and brain injuries sustained in sport. The most recent one, from 2017, states “to date, a cause and effect relationship between CTE and concussions or exposure to contact sports has not been established”, a position that has been cited by multiple sports federations as they defend themselves against both legal challenges and calls to reform.

WR are going to have to face this directly soon. They can't get away with squirming around the issue for much longer.

Not that FIFA and WR has a vested interest in championing anyone who says there is no provable link.....

However, this isn't exactly scientific "research to date suggests".

[Torquemada 1420]

The bigger threat to rugby is probably the brain damage caused by the repeat impacts that aren't direct to the head, because it's much harder to legislate for.

And harder to measure. But you are right, it's the decelerative collisions that cause damage and they need not be directly to the head.

[Slick]

We had an ex-players meet during the summer and agreed that ought to do something to help todays players at the club.
After over 30 years of bangs to the head I'm starting with 'running' the M25 for charity to raise money for those living with dementia, might want to avoid the area a week on Sunday

Is it Wimborne RFC you are involved with?

If so, used to love playing you guys back in the day (Amersham & Chiltern), always a good hard match and a good beer after.

[Bullet]

We had an ex-players meet during the summer and agreed that ought to do something to help todays players at the club.
After over 30 years of bangs to the head I'm starting with 'running' the M25 for charity to raise money for those living with dementia, might want to avoid the area a week on Sunday

Is it Wimborne RFC you are involved with?

If so, used to love playing you guys back in the day (Amersham & Chiltern), always a good hard match and a good beer after.

No, live in Wimborne now but only ever played for village I grew up in.
Wimborne II used to be 80 minutes of niggle / cheap shots twice a year - loved it!

[Blackmac]

The bigger threat to rugby is probably the brain damage caused by the repeat impacts that aren't direct to the head, because it's much harder to legislate for.

And harder to measure. But you are right, it's the decelerative collisions that cause damage and they need not be directly to the head.

Steve Thompson certainly seems to think there is a big link to the thousands of brief blackouts he had during scrum training.

[Torquemada 1420]

The bigger threat to rugby is probably the brain damage caused by the repeat impacts that aren't direct to the head, because it's much harder to legislate for.

And harder to measure. But you are right, it's the decelerative collisions that cause damage and they need not be directly to the head.

Steve Thompson certainly seems to think there is a big link to the thousands of brief blackouts he had during scrum training.

He may have been more susceptible for some reason but I think he's correct on the principles/biomechanics. What I found shocking from that doco was the amount of times he did blackout and so called sports medical professionals just said "carry on". Hard to see that as anything other than negligence.

[inactionman]

And harder to measure. But you are right, it's the decelerative collisions that cause damage and they need not be directly to the head.

Steve Thompson certainly seems to think there is a big link to the thousands of brief blackouts he had during scrum training.

He may have been more susceptible for some reason but I think he's correct on the principles/biomechanics. What I found shocking from that doco was the amount of times he did blackout and so called sports medical professionals just said "carry on". Hard to see that as anything other than negligence.

Yep - I thought we'd be talking a handful of occasions, seems like it was pretty much run-of-the-mill

[Tichtheid]

I haven't found the article in The Rugby Journal yet, but I'll keep looking

[Tichtheid]

A really interesting thread

[Torquemada 1420]

Has anyone else seen this?


Just what the actual f**k is Matt Williams on?

During the game

Wish I could sit in on O'Keefe's Monday debrief, because writing that off as nothing goes against a lot of established precedent.

Was thinking the same: we've seen plenty of reds for the same. One day rugby will take head collisions seriously, consistently.

And White is back on FFS.

[Tichtheid]

Rule of thumb learned by Scots a while ago - Don’t listen to a word Matt Williams says

[Torquemada 1420]

Rule of thumb learned by Scots a while ago - Don’t listen to a word Matt Williams says

It's barking mad. It's like listening to a climate change denialist. I wonder if they'd allow him airtime again after this.

[Niegs]

He’s got more nuance to it, but Dr Tucker basically saying the high tackle framework as a means of reducing high tackles hasn’t worked (and he was a big part of it).

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofs ... ause-brain

The French way of tackles at the waist seems the next step, and I think it’d make for a better game.

[Line6 HXFX]

Players still have to stick their heads in rucks and mauls and scrums. That is where Alex Popham got his 70 thousand micro concussions from over the course of his career.

If horse riders had to ride horses from the underneath of their horses and their heads were constantly getting battered by the hoves of a horse, you would all be sickened that you were watching and supporting such a spectacle.
Rugby head jnjuries are exactly like that. They are incidental not accidental. Those collisions are happening all the time.
Your head is going to be in places a human head shouldn't be, your brain is going to smash into the inside of your skull, and your brain hasn't got enough fluid around it to protect it, and is not designed for that shite.

Rugby is screwed. There is no way around it.

The only way to save it, is to start attacking and blaming players who come down with Motor Neurons, Early Onset and CTE and aghast supporters who think " fuck that".

The whole culture surrounding Rugby is going to have to become fucking disgusting, like boxing or dogfighting, where people repelled by it are to be called pussies or soft cocks.

As it is supported by seemingly all right wing fucking idiots, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.