Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Slick]

By itself I don't think it will, it is part of a wider pattern of intolerant authoritarian behaviour of the progressive left. They assume that they are on the side of the Angels on social/cultural issues and therefore anybody who disagrees with them on any issue is automatically a fascist/racist/Terf etc and therefore there to be abused rather than debated with.

The public can see that the progressive left does not tolerate diversity of opinion on social/cultural issues, that will change voting behaviour, just look at the 2019 election.

Pure supposition I'm afraid.

2019 was brexit, Corbyn's social positions had been well known in 2017 and whilst he lost the election and a fair amount of people hated him he didn't do all that badly compared to previous Labour leaders. Next election will come down to the economy and the NHS as both are farked and that actually affects people rather than this new moral panic which affects pretty much nobody.

Outside of the column pages of The Times and headlines of the Daily Mail the illiberal left have really no bearing on society. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone had any actual story of dealing with a trans person. I've never met one and I live in one of the most cloying liberal cities in the UK.

Seriously?

I've known, in person, two who have transitioned while at school, in different counties and one while at university. I'm fairly sure I've met several others, and may well have met many others but how would I know?

Got a decent amount of experience myself

[sockwithaticket]

Back in my college days ('06 - '08) there was one trans girl in a 1500 person college. That's the only time I've knowingly encountered a trans person in real life.

[SaintK]

Friend or foe?

[Camroc2]

Friend or foe?

Oh la la, Monsieur Macron, c'est magnifique.............

[ia801310]

I'm a TERF too, well if JKR is I must be, and I deeply object to be labelled 'cis'. There is no need for the term, trans women are a subset of women , just as man is used as a catch-all at times for all adults. I don't see why women should be forced to re-define themselves. I am heartened that the conversation has become more nuanced and pragmatic lately. Sporting bodies have acknowledge the potential of unfairness in the of adult transitioned males competing in women's professional sport and the masochistic language and cancel culture seems to be abating a bit from a movement that seems to be have been infiltrated by some very unsavoury characters.

I have no issue with unisex loos, and sharing space with a trans women (that has made the effort to fit in), and calling someone by their preferred pronoun. If I came across a trans women, I'd respect their choice and treat them with respect, kindness, and understanding, assuming the favour returned. Violence and harassments of anyone is a crime, and the trans community should be protected and supported to ensure their safety.

Stammer should stay well clear of the topic and leave it let others at a community level lead the way. A top down approach can only lead to division, and it should be anywhere near his priorities.

Personally, I generally take the view on trans issues that as I'm a straight white middle aged man, mine is the last opinion they need to hear. My only observation is that a substantial amount of the accusations and campaigning around it sounds very similar to what was thrown around about gay men in the 70s and 80s. In fact every minority / disenfrachised group campaigning for their rights has had the 'sexual deviant' thing thrown at them - gay men and women, black people in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s, suffragettes in the early part of the 20th century.

I think this is a bit different, some in the gay community feel some of the 'trans' idealists are openly homophobic and trying to rolling back some of their hard fought identity acceptance. Allowing people to being who they are without harassments nobody should object to, but forcing an ideology on others , undermining their sense of who they are is quite different. There is also the black hooded brigade which seem more like incels rather people genuinely concerned for the trans gender community. Hopefully Stammer doesn't allow it to be a thing, as it could easily go from a side issue no one takes an interest in to one that alienates large sections of the population. I do trust him though..

I had never thought of the Black Bloc being Incels, now you have mentioned it, they do definitely have an Incel vibe to them and I wouldn't be surprised if they were incels.

I live in a small town and know one Transwoman through work and know of at least 2 more Transwomen and 2 Transmen in the town. I am surprised that someone living in a large liberal city had not seen any.

I think Labour have to realise that although the public are probably moving to the left on economic issues, when it comes to social and cultural issues they are moving to the right. When forced to make a choice they will always vote on the Cultural and social issues rather than the economic issues (see Brexit), the reason being is that economic damage can be repaired, social and cultural changes imposed upon the electorate cannot be undone so easily.

[I like neeps]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62970803

Government decide against publishing economic forecasts with their mini budget. Stupid as it'll leak but still shows it's not good!

[Biffer]

Was that a quick round of white middle aged straight men saying that the opinions of white middle aged straight men are important?

Well I never.

[Slick]

All this trans talk has made me wonder where JMK has been, anyone know if he is OK?

[ia801310]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

[robmatic]

Was that a quick round of white middle aged straight men saying that the opinions of white middle aged straight men are important?

Well I never.

I think you might be misgendering some participants in this conversation, or just discounting the views of a woman.

I'll admit to being a distressingly white bloke but I do listen to my Muslim wife sometimes, like on this issue.

[Tichtheid]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

[dpedin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62970803

Government decide against publishing economic forecasts with their mini budget. Stupid as it'll leak but still shows it's not good!

This is very worrying but not surprising! They are a bunch of nutters on a zealous mission and facts are just an inconvenient truth. We are in real trouble now! ....

[fishfoodie]

Well the good news is that Dizzy Lizzy is prepared to be unpopular, & murder those 101 adorable dalmatians, to turn them into a coat .... as long as it gets her picture on the Vogue cover, because that's what's really important in the grand scheme of things .....

[Tichtheid]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

[SaintK]

How very apt. The Secretary of State for Business recording a video about business support in front of a closed down, boarded up business

[robmatic]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

[Jockaline]

Was that a quick round of white middle aged straight men saying that the opinions of white middle aged straight men are important?

Well I never.

I'm not a man, but welcome the views of white middle aged straight men - not sure what being white, having experience of life and not being gay has to do with anything. Men are key to the welfare of women, and resolving women concerns / issues as they are premodernity the cause of the them, 'not all men' / 'nothing to do with me' doesn't cut it I'm afraid. Men are fathers of daughters, brothers of sisters, sons of mothers etc, this has everything to do with you to.

[Jockaline]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Trans people already have the same rights as every other human being. Human rights are universal. What is questionable is specific rights that undermine others specific rights to feel save and to compete on a level playing field.

[Jockaline]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

[JM2K6]

All this trans talk has made me wonder where JMK has been, anyone know if he is OK?

Very busy at the mo, and I don't see any point in getting involved in these conversations any more when they're just people staking out their positions and reinforcing the defences (I would largely be doing the same). Why would I expend precious energy on a topic I do care about but with zero hope of it being anything other than people yelling at each other at varying volume? God knows I've been guilty of that enough times.

Andy "actual fascist" Ngo being quoted to start this all off with an eye opener mind you, but that's another thing entirely

[I like neeps]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

[C69]

Tbh what are Starmer's views on Social and Cultural issues that he/she disagrees with?

[Slick]

All this trans talk has made me wonder where JMK has been, anyone know if he is OK?

Very busy at the mo, and I don't see any point in getting involved in these conversations any more when they're just people staking out their positions and reinforcing the defences (I would largely be doing the same). Why would I expend precious energy on a topic I do care about but with zero hope of it being anything other than people yelling at each other at varying volume? God knows I've been guilty of that enough times.

Andy "actual fascist" Ngo being quoted to start this all off with an eye opener mind you, but that's another thing entirely

Good to see you

[Tichtheid]

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

[ASMO]

All segregation on the basis of sex is essentially discriminatory.

Some of that segregation arises because men, as a class, are considered to be potential sexual predators. You may, as a man, consider this to be unfair and prejudiced.

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

I am afraid i take all of these numbers with a huge pinch of salt, the sample is so small to be meaningless and they do not publish what they deem to be a sexual assault. I frankly do not believe that a quarter of all women in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted. That does not take anything away from those that have, it is a terrible thing for them to have to deal with, but these numbers are frankly bollocks and serve only to demonise men, and not the men who commit these.

[ia801310]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

[ia801310]

The right is, yet again, stoking fires where it serves their purpose to stoke division.#

Trans people amount for a tiny proportion of our population but to hear the shrieking from the Right you'd think the "Transers" were murdering puppies and eating babies, defacing statutes of anything they hold dear and plotting the Hegemony of the Intersex.

No trans person has posted on this topic, so far it's been the opinions of people who are not trans.

Until a trans person posts on here, perhaps we could hear about how more rights for trans people* threatens or undermines your wellbeing.

*By "more rights for trans people" I mean having exactly the same rights as everyone else.


#there is a wee story which sums up how the right stokes up division. Three people are sitting around a table with ten biscuits on a plate in the middle.
One person reaches out and takes nine biscuits for themself.

A second person reaches towards the one biscuit that's left and the first person turns to the third and says, "that geezer is stealing your biscuit"

That is how these people work.

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

[Slick]

and aggressive / violent behavior. I have experience male violence and sexual harassments, and from close relations with other females this is not uncommon, and I expect the vast majority have felt intimated by men (not always deliberately) at some point of their life. Different spaces are there for a reason.

According to Rape Crisis, 1 in 4 women have experienced rape or sexual assault as an adult. (I seem to recall a higher number in certain circumstances, like women on tube carriages in London)

1 in 2, some reports say higher, up to 66% of trans women have been victims of rape or sexual assault as an adult.

The problem is predatory men, however just like gay teachers were assumed to be sexual predators in previous decades, trans women are now being labelled as such.

The men who carry out these attacks will find a way to do so, not nearly enough of them are caught and brought to justice and when they are the punishments are insulting to the victims.

In the meantime, in all honesty I can't say any woman is wrong to be fearful of anyone, I have a completely different experience when walking about on my own to that of my wife and daughters.
I'm just not keen on the actions of the very few being used to discriminate against a section of the community who themselves are victims of horrific violence and abuse.

I am afraid i take all of these numbers with a huge pinch of salt, the sample is so small to be meaningless and they do not publish what they deem to be a sexual assault. I frankly do not believe that a quarter of all women in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted. That does not take anything away from those that have, it is a terrible thing for them to have to deal with, but these numbers are frankly bollocks and serve only to demonise men, and not the men who commit these.

Well I completely believe it. I remember when the #metoo thing started and I was amazed at the number of women I know well, including my wife and sisters, who had stories of sexual assault. Some of it might be "low level" but it all counts. Just sit on a train or bus at night FFS and see the shit that women have to put up with. There might be other stuff I disagree with Tichtheid on in this conversation but that is definitely not one.

[Line6 HXFX]

Without a massive influx of immigration the UK cannot grow. They cannot fill the jobs we have now.

Grow where?
The push for growth is just bullshit.

Look Truss doesn't care about the next election, she knows she is going to lose by a landslide, so it is fire sale time. Give her doners everything they want, and lots of stuff they didn't 't even ask for so that when the tories are shortly in opposition they will donate again to the tory party and support them, not Labour.

None of these policies makes sense unless viewed from this perspective.

[Slick]

Much of what you say is correct bar the right bit.

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK

The trans movement stoked this originally and the right sat up and took notice. They are growing minority with a ludicrously outsized voice that has taken over LGBT movements the world over. Its a disaster for the socially left really

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

I'm not defending Stonewall, but if you think everything is sweet and rosy for gay people now you really need to get out from under your rock.

[ia801310]

Well, I suppose one could say that TERFs are from the left, there are some unlikely alliances on this issue, with eg, women's rights activists teaming up with anti-abortion groups in the US.
Their tropes and methods have been imported to the UK





I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean that some of the leaders of the Stonewall activists were trans women, and that they ignited a movement that led to gay men and women attaining some kind of equality and now that movement is asking/demanding that equality should be extended to trans people?

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 put into law that people couldn't be sacked for being trans gender, is this what you mean?

If we accept the "same space" argument against trans people, we are assuming that they, and let's be honest here, the discrimination and prejudice is against trans women, we are saying that they are all sexual predators, or at least potentially so, so why take the risk?

As Biffer pointed out, this was the shit that gay schoolteachers had to put up with several decades ago

After Gay Rights were secured, Stonewall became a solution in search of a problem and they turned to Trans Rights as the alternative was to shut up shop.

I'm not defending Stonewall, but if you think everything is sweet and rosy for gay people now you really need to get out from under your rock.

From a legal point of view Stonewall's job is done. Gay rights do still need advocacy but at such a level that would justify Stonewall's current business model.

They only started on Trans Rights in 2015

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/02/16/s ... ights-too/

[Calculon]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

[ia801310]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

[I like neeps]

This is insane from Starmer

https://labourlist.org/2022/09/anger-fr ... n-blocked/

Even as a Tory I support nationalisation of public services and utilities.

If Labour can stop being so nutty on Social and Cultural issues (including Immigration and Asylum) I could consider supporting them.

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

[ia801310]

What are their current policies on asylum/immigration that you so disagree with?

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

I mean aside from the Rwanda point (which isn't a smart policy anyway because it won't remove the numbers arriving) none of this is true.

I very much doubt Whittome has any say at all over labour policy and the link to Hodges is a great example that you won't vote labour not because of policy but because of what the daily mail is saying is their policy.

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

[Jockaline]

You can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.


https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.
[/quote]

You really think illegal immigrants are going to turn up in polling stations in numbers, and if they do it will make any significant impact on results. Your are being played. This is just a dog whistle scenario to force through voter id, which is far more likely to be abused, and have an impact on results than illegal immigrants ever will.

[Calculon]

They disagree with the Rwanda plan for 1.

Also they want anybody who lives in the Country to have the vote in general elections regardless of citizenship. Therefore you can land on a Kent Beach on the Monday and be in the Voting Booth on the Thursday.

They are secretly in favour of open borders. They should be honest about it at least Nadia Whittome is honest about it.

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

I'm not reading all your links but the bit you quote says UK residents, so not anyone who lives there or who arrived in the UK a couple of days before the general election.

Just to be clear this is the requirements before you are allowed to apply for residency:

Below is a list showing the length of time you must spend in the UK on various visas to be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR):

Marriage or unmarried partner to UK citizen: 2 years
Lawful stay on any basis (long stay): 10 years
Unlawful stay: 14 years
Tier 1 and Tier 2 work permit: 5 years
Investor, sportsperson, business owner, arts: 5 years
Ancestry: 5 years

[Raggs]

Yeah, was going to say, legally the term Resident, carries a lot with it. It's not simply a case of currently being in the UK.

[robmatic]

Is this really true? I don't follow UK politics that closely but this does sound like bollocks.

Also from what I've read the whole Rwanda plan has been a total fiasco.

Yes

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-w ... residents/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 15926.html

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

Page 82

A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which
has stifled democracy and propped up
weak governments. We will maintain
650 constituencies and respond
objectively to future, independent
boundary reviews. We will oversee the
largest extension of the franchise in
generations, reducing the voting age
to 16, giving full voting rights to all
UK residents, making sure everyone
who is entitled to vote can do so by
introducing a system of automatic voter
registration, and abandoning plans
to introduce voter ID which has been
shown to harm democratic rights.

I'm not reading all your links but the bit you quote says UK residents, so not anyone who lives there or who arrived in the UK a couple of days before the general election.

Just to be clear this is the requirements before you are allowed to apply for residency:

Below is a list showing the length of time you must spend in the UK on various visas to be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR):

Marriage or unmarried partner to UK citizen: 2 years
Lawful stay on any basis (long stay): 10 years
Unlawful stay: 14 years
Tier 1 and Tier 2 work permit: 5 years
Investor, sportsperson, business owner, arts: 5 years
Ancestry: 5 years

ILR is permanent residence, you are also resident during the qualifying periods you mention there. You are correct that it's not people arriving by boat etc. or on tourist visas.

I think the major implication of extending the vote to all UK residents is that it also ensures that the 5 million EU citizens who have settled status in the UK following Brexit have the right to vote in UK parliamentary elections.

[Insane_Homer]