AI Matches W2: Sat 5; Ita v Sam - Sco v Fij - Wal v NZ - Ire v SA - Fra v Aus : Sun; Eng v Arg

[sockwithaticket]

I have some sympathy for this but he’s getting a very free run in some very poor performances

If he was looking equally crap for his club, he'd probably be getting more scrutiny. He's not, though, so he doesn't. Our misfiring attack also pre-dates his involvement in the team considerably.

Well when he played Sale (99% it was this game) and came up against a strong side playing a test style defence he really really struggled. The Prem isn’t a great lead into test rugby.

I like Smith, he’s a good lad, has a decent head and is clearly talented. He’s the future, no doubt. However the facts of the performances he’s been part of at 10 don’t lie and blaming everyone but him seems overly protective

Disagree, plenty of 'Welsh' and Argentinian players seem to be able to transfer cracking Prem form to the international stage. It's an England problem to take players who are outstanding for their clubs and have them playing like a disordered rabble.

We may as well drop Smith at the moment. The attack isn't set up in a way that gets the best out of him, so what's the point? As for that Sale game. I can't really recall it tbh, but however good your 10 it remains the case that there's only so much they can do when their pack's getting beaten up and what ball materialises is crap.

[JM2K6]

When did I focus on him?

By replying to a post about Curry with

"Likewise Smith. Clearly talented but his time at 10 has coincided with probably our worst attacking games in a decade"

And

"have some sympathy for this but he’s getting a very free run in some very poor performances"

which does seem to be you complaining he's not being criticised enough and suggesting our poor attack is his fault, but perhaps I'm misreading.

Anyway - Smith made more metres off 3 carries than the world class midfield pairing managed from 7 (and made more tackles, amusingly). Farrell, as the super experienced test match animal, passed the ball almost as often as Smith because our attack has to go through him. If he can't run the ball, isn't quite a bit of the onus on him to put players into space given his role in the side?
But no criticism for him...?

Think I’ve managed to criticise today:
- Youngs. Repeatedly
- Nowell
- Jones
- the entire pack
- Curry
- Smith

Happy to add Faz into that as well.

Fundamentally a team performing as poorly as England should not be giving our 10 a free ride just because we like him and he’s talented. I like him! I think he’s talented! And I’m sure he’d be the first to accept he has more to give in an England shirt and plenty to improve upon.

I think the point is that everyone agrees we're not seeing the best from him, but very few people agree that he is the problem, shares any meaningful blame for the performances, or that it's his fault we're not seeing more from him. Time and time again we've seen the Smith/Farrell axis not work. We've seen Smith work much better without Farrell. We've seen England work much better with Ford and Farrell playing a very specific kicking game.

Essentially we have picked an incredibly slow and blunt team, with Farrell at 12 purely for distribution in attack, and distributing to... A bunch of slow players and an admittedly powerful one in Tuilagi. There is no obvious attacking shape beyond the idea of Farrell as a second ten. The tactics and the coaching are absolute garbage.

Like, I think the Smith/Farrell thing can work IF Farrell is asked to run hard lines often enough, and IF Smith is allowed to get the ball wider out occasionally, and IF the team is actually set up to make the most of the attacking options. And if Youngs is fired into the sun, obviously.

But if what we're seeing is actually what Eddie wants, please send Smith back to Quins.

[JM2K6]

If he was looking equally crap for his club, he'd probably be getting more scrutiny. He's not, though, so he doesn't. Our misfiring attack also pre-dates his involvement in the team considerably.

Well when he played Sale (99% it was this game) and came up against a strong side playing a test style defence he really really struggled. The Prem isn’t a great lead into test rugby.

I like Smith, he’s a good lad, has a decent head and is clearly talented. He’s the future, no doubt. However the facts of the performances he’s been part of at 10 don’t lie and blaming everyone but him seems overly protective

Disagree, plenty of 'Welsh' and Argentinian players seem to be able to transfer cracking Prem form to the international stage. It's an England problem to take players who are outstanding for their clubs and have them playing like a disordered rabble.

We may as well drop Smith at the moment. The attack isn't set up in a way that gets the best out of him, so what's the point? As for that Sale game. I can't really recall it tbh, but however good your 10 it remains the case that there's only so much they can do when their pack's getting beaten up and what ball materialises is crap.

The Sale game is when a Quins side lacking most of their ball carrying / big hitting forwards won comfortably, with Smith setting up a try with an incredible bit of skill, scored one himself, and ran the show against a gigantic team including kicking like a dream. MOTM I believe.

But he had a bad half against Tigers.

[sockwithaticket]

That whole performance lived down to my expectations, unfortunately. It's going to be a long 12 months until we're finally rid of the odious little Antipodean.

Constants of the last while with Eddie:
- turgid, barely existent attack
- crap discipline
- sub-optimal selections

Here's a question as he tends to get a pass on these things. When was the last time Tom Curry had a really dominant game for England? Genuine question, as I may have forgotten about a few.

Yeah he's rarely actively bad and so escapes a lot of scrutiny, but he's just been cruising for a while.

Fail to see what he was doing so well that Willis couldn't enter the fray until the last 6 minutes.

I'd back Willis to do better against the big boys on current form. He's out in the wilderness, but if you're insistent on such a slow backline, get Earls back involved. Would love to see Pearson get a chance against Japan.

At the very least Curry could do with a bit of a kick up the arse by being taken off with a chunk of the game left or even being benched.

Greater mobility in the back row would go a long way to help with our support play on both sides of the ball which is pretty crap.

[Brazil]

If he was looking equally crap for his club, he'd probably be getting more scrutiny. He's not, though, so he doesn't. Our misfiring attack also pre-dates his involvement in the team considerably.

Well when he played Sale (99% it was this game) and came up against a strong side playing a test style defence he really really struggled. The Prem isn’t a great lead into test rugby.

I like Smith, he’s a good lad, has a decent head and is clearly talented. He’s the future, no doubt. However the facts of the performances he’s been part of at 10 don’t lie and blaming everyone but him seems overly protective

Disagree, plenty of 'Welsh' and Argentinian players seem to be able to transfer cracking Prem form to the international stage. It's an England problem to take players who are outstanding for their clubs and have them playing like a disordered rabble.

We may as well drop Smith at the moment. The attack isn't set up in a way that gets the best out of him, so what's the point? As for that Sale game. I can't really recall it tbh, but however good your 10 it remains the case that there's only so much they can do when their pack's getting beaten up and what ball materialises is crap.

Smith had a blinder against Sale, he took us apart. He is not the problem in this England team, rather it's the fact that he surrounded by cunts and isn't allowed to play his natural game.

[Hal Jordan]

Half the problem is the endless pullback. One of Smith or Farrell stands at 10, tosses it short and deep to the other, who then either gets stuffed in the tackle or more often just ships it to the 13 channel to see what they can do with it in the teeth of the defensive line.

Smith works well close to the line with a big runner to either take it at speed or decoy to create space for him to run or kick, Farrell works well further back, assessing and managing. At the moment we have neither of them playing to their strengths.

[OomStruisbaai]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

[JM2K6]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

You should watch the France and Ireland matches

[Paddington Bear]

By replying to a post about Curry with

"Likewise Smith. Clearly talented but his time at 10 has coincided with probably our worst attacking games in a decade"

And

"have some sympathy for this but he’s getting a very free run in some very poor performances"

which does seem to be you complaining he's not being criticised enough and suggesting our poor attack is his fault, but perhaps I'm misreading.

Anyway - Smith made more metres off 3 carries than the world class midfield pairing managed from 7 (and made more tackles, amusingly). Farrell, as the super experienced test match animal, passed the ball almost as often as Smith because our attack has to go through him. If he can't run the ball, isn't quite a bit of the onus on him to put players into space given his role in the side?
But no criticism for him...?

Think I’ve managed to criticise today:
- Youngs. Repeatedly
- Nowell
- Jones
- the entire pack
- Curry
- Smith

Happy to add Faz into that as well.

Fundamentally a team performing as poorly as England should not be giving our 10 a free ride just because we like him and he’s talented. I like him! I think he’s talented! And I’m sure he’d be the first to accept he has more to give in an England shirt and plenty to improve upon.

I think the point is that everyone agrees we're not seeing the best from him, but very few people agree that he is the problem, shares any meaningful blame for the performances, or that it's his fault we're not seeing more from him. Time and time again we've seen the Smith/Farrell axis not work. We've seen Smith work much better without Farrell. We've seen England work much better with Ford and Farrell playing a very specific kicking game.

Essentially we have picked an incredibly slow and blunt team, with Farrell at 12 purely for distribution in attack, and distributing to... A bunch of slow players and an admittedly powerful one in Tuilagi. There is no obvious attacking shape beyond the idea of Farrell as a second ten. The tactics and the coaching are absolute garbage.

Like, I think the Smith/Farrell thing can work IF Farrell is asked to run hard lines often enough, and IF Smith is allowed to get the ball wider out occasionally, and IF the team is actually set up to make the most of the attacking options. And if Youngs is fired into the sun, obviously.

But if what we're seeing is actually what Eddie wants, please send Smith back to Quins.

I don’t think we’re really disagreeing with each other. I responded initially to a point around Curry - a player we all like, rate and see as a core part of the team who we should be getting more out of. I’d put Smith in the same category.

[OomStruisbaai]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

You should watch the France and Ireland matches

I have watched them. France was very lucky to win against the Wallabies. The Bokke vs Ireland match was close. This at home. The All Blacks broke Wales. Foster doing a great job.

[PCPhil]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

It was only Wales against NZ in an Ai.

[Slick]

That whole performance lived down to my expectations, unfortunately. It's going to be a long 12 months until we're finally rid of the odious little Antipodean.

Constants of the last while with Eddie:
- turgid, barely existent attack
- crap discipline
- sub-optimal selections



Yeah he's rarely actively bad and so escapes a lot of scrutiny, but he's just been cruising for a while.

Fail to see what he was doing so well that Willis couldn't enter the fray until the last 6 minutes.

I'd back Willis to do better against the big boys on current form. He's out in the wilderness, but if you're insistent on such a slow backline, get Earls back involved. Would love to see Pearson get a chance against Japan.

At the very least Curry could do with a bit of a kick up the arse by being taken off with a chunk of the game left or even being benched.

Greater mobility in the back row would go a long way to help with our support play on both sides of the ball which is pretty crap.

Honestly, up until I’ve read this I thought Curry had come on as a 2nd half sub when there was an up close of him

[Stranger]

Jones' England actually had me happy that Argentina won

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I have some sympathy for this but he’s getting a very free run in some very poor performances

If he was looking equally crap for his club, he'd probably be getting more scrutiny. He's not, though, so he doesn't. Our misfiring attack also pre-dates his involvement in the team considerably.

Well when he played Sale (99% it was this game) and came up against a strong side playing a test style defence he really really struggled. The Prem isn’t a great lead into test rugby.

I like Smith, he’s a good lad, has a decent head and is clearly talented. He’s the future, no doubt. However the facts of the performances he’s been part of at 10 don’t lie and blaming everyone but him seems overly protective

That was the game Quins won relatively comfortably, yes?

I think a less retarded example would be good.

[Gumboot]

Congrats, Pumas. Having quite the historic year.

[Torquemada 1420]

Well done Argentina good win took the points when avaiable

How wonderful to have the pleasure of a proper flyhalf. So jealous. Well done the Argies

THIS

[Torquemada 1420]

Likewise Smith. Clearly talented but his time at 10 has coincided with probably our worst attacking games in a decade

Cant really blame Smith when you have Youngs inside him, then Farrell stepping in a first receiver too often. Smith might as well be there with those clowns in the side

I have some sympathy for this but he’s getting a very free run in some very poor performances

Tell you what. Swapsie Smith for Ntamack.

[Torquemada 1420]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

Against Wales

[fishfoodie]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

You should watch the France and Ireland matches

I have watched them. France was very lucky to win against the Wallabies. The Bokke vs Ireland match was close. This at home. The All Blacks broke Wales. Foster doing a great job.

Totally agree !


The NZRU should make sure they don't lose him, & sign him up now for the next RWC, or else they'll lose him to the big spenders in England

[sockwithaticket]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

Against Wales

Wales managed to keep it close against SA in the Summer, in the heads of certain Saffer supporters that makes them a good team ( ) ergo having their arses handed to them by the Kiwis means the All Blacks were awesome.

[C69]

The All Blacks a class above the rest on the weekend.

Against Wales

Wales managed to keep it close against SA in the Summer, in the heads of certain Saffer supporters that makes them a good team ( ) ergo having their arses handed to them by the Kiwis means the All Blacks were awesome.

That was a makeshift Wales team with some players having played only 1 or 2 games this year.
The selection was appalling and unbalanced.

It was not the team that played SA in the summer. They were poorly coached, poorly managed and poorly captained.
They did not adapt to Barnes as ref and tbh it was Wales worst performance for a while and the ABs won't play as well this tour.

All that said it does not excuse the spineless capitulation.

[sockwithaticket]

Against Wales

Wales managed to keep it close against SA in the Summer, in the heads of certain Saffer supporters that makes them a good team ( ) ergo having their arses handed to them by the Kiwis means the All Blacks were awesome.

That was a makeshift Wales team with some players having played only 1 or 2 games this year.
The selection was appalling and unbalanced.

It was not the team that played SA in the summer. They were poorly coached, poorly managed and poorly captained.
They did not adapt to Barnes as ref and tbh it was Wales worst performance for a while and the ABs won't play as well this tour.

All that said it does not excuse the spineless capitulation.

I feel like we hear this every international window, including the Summer series just gone.

[C69]

Wales managed to keep it close against SA in the Summer, in the heads of certain Saffer supporters that makes them a good team ( ) ergo having their arses handed to them by the Kiwis means the All Blacks were awesome.

That was a makeshift Wales team with some players having played only 1 or 2 games this year.
The selection was appalling and unbalanced.

It was not the team that played SA in the summer. They were poorly coached, poorly managed and poorly captained.
They did not adapt to Barnes as ref and tbh it was Wales worst performance for a while and the ABs won't play as well this tour.

All that said it does not excuse the spineless capitulation.

I feel like we hear this every international window, including the Summer series just gone.

Indeed such is the malaise of Welsh .
At least with Garland and Edwards we has a formula, a plan.
We have no strength in depth and are poorly coached. That said our best 22 would have run NZ much closer.

[Guy Smiley]

Oom can't help himself, he is addicted to unleashing that famous Saffa humour and wit with his refreshing and original trolling about Foster....

NZR is in a mess this year. Foster's coaching has been propped up with injected talent in the coaching box but the fundamental problems are still there. Poor tactics, aimless kicking and his trademark undermanning of the breakdown and ruck...

selections remain something of a perplexing mix of favouritism and blind hope. Caleb Clarke can break the lines ok but he doesn't have a defensive braincell in his head and just doesn't know where to be at times. The rest of the game plan seems to revolve around a reliance on individual talent and flair providing moments masking the systematic deficiency of smarts behind the All Black game.

[fishfoodie]

The rest of the game plan seems to revolve around a reliance on individual talent and flair providing moments masking the systematic deficiency of smarts behind the All Black game.

Well if Savea gets injured you are FUBAR; it'll probably be a back injury as well, from carrying the rest of the team.

[Uncle fester]

Just stop. We will choke like Pamela Anderson circa 1995. Been a good year though all the same though La Rochelle sucked balls

Leinster <> Ireland

Did you see the get up on Zeebs

I don't share your predilection for obsessing over what players do in their spare time so no I didn't.

[Guy Smiley]

The rest of the game plan seems to revolve around a reliance on individual talent and flair providing moments masking the systematic deficiency of smarts behind the All Black game.

Well if Savea gets injured you are FUBAR; it'll probably be a back injury as well, from carrying the rest of the team.

Ardie stands out, sure… but we have other players who can deliver in the back row. Next year our options open up a bit with injury returns for Ethan Blackadder and Cullen Grace. I’d like to see them at 6 and 8 with Ardie playing at 7. Foster won’t do that though. He’ll find a way to play all three away from their best position and squeeze a Barrett in there for good measure.

[Gumboot]

Caleb Clarke can break the lines ok but he doesn't have a defensive braincell in his head and just doesn't know where to be at times.

Ain't that the fucking truth. And even when he does break the line, he's more likely to fall over himself/get bundled into touch/drop the ball than to actually do something constructive. He's utter gash, and the sooner he gets dumped the better.

[assfly]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but what was up with Farrell's post-match interview? He looked on another planet, which is quite worrying considering he's just back from a serious concussion.

[Flockwitt]

The rest of the game plan seems to revolve around a reliance on individual talent and flair providing moments masking the systematic deficiency of smarts behind the All Black game.

Well if Savea gets injured you are FUBAR; it'll probably be a back injury as well, from carrying the rest of the team.

Ardie stands out, sure… but we have other players who can deliver in the back row. Next year our options open up a bit with injury returns for Ethan Blackadder and Cullen Grace. I’d like to see them at 6 and 8 with Ardie playing at 7. Foster won’t do that though. He’ll find a way to play all three away from their best position and squeeze a Barrett in there for good measure.

To be honest Guy, I'm not sure Ardie's best position is 7 any longer. It's like what happened when Richie McGOAT stopped trying to pilfer and get turnovers, they'd worked he was more effective either hitting rucks or linking, not standing off the ruck waiting for the right opportunity to snaffle. What was accepted gospel in balance and position doesn't necessarily hold true if the player is effective in the core roles. If we consider the Welsh 8 who was the best player in their team, the effective stats between Taulaupe Faletau and Ardie were very similar in terms of yards made, tackles made - the key metrics that people might measure the position and impact on the game by. I'm not sure at 7 Ardie would be able to do the same.

[Guy Smiley]

Yeah... I know. The curious conundrum of a guy who's probably the best 7 in the country being too good at 8 to avoid playing him there, so what Foster will probably do is play someone like Blackadder, a natural 6, at 7 so he can keep Ardie at 8.

I'd like to see Grace get games at 8. It looks like Sotutu has been banished to the spare parts dept, Pita Gus Sowakula was given his token moment and locked away so Fiji can't play him so development of players for the national team has stalled in this position as it has in rpetty much every other.

I like Papali'i too although I'm not thoroughly convinced on him yet.

I just want to see an end to the Foster reign and some actual ideas brought back into the development of our national team and the way it plays.

[Grandpa]

I love Papalii. He's a dynamo.. just watch him.. the amount of work he gets through. He impacts so many breakdowns. Number 8 is a much looser role and suits Ardie... we'd lose his offensive effectiveness as he'd be stuck in the grinder if he was moved back to 7...

[boere wors]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but what was up with Farrell's post-match interview? He looked on another planet, which is quite worrying considering he's just back from a serious concussion.

didn't notice anything unusual, besides his northwestern (?) accent and the usual dim-witted appearance

[Torquemada 1420]

I love Papalii. He's a dynamo.. just watch him.. the amount of work he gets through. He impacts so many breakdowns. Number 8 is a much looser role and suits Ardie... we'd lose his offensive effectiveness as he'd be stuck in the grinder if he was moved back to 7...

Ditto but in his ltd minutes at intl, he didn't impress. Classic case of needing more game time for a real assessment and with RCW looming, he won't get it.

[Torquemada 1420]

Bernol

Malgrè tout, le sélectionneur national pourrait considérer que la deuxième-ligne (Thibaut Flament-Cameron Woki) ayant démarré face aux Wallabies samedi soir est peut-être trop légère pour affronter les titans sud-africains

Errr, yeah. You heard it here first.

[Slick]

Come on YMX, the excitement has just kicked off for Week 3 - Fin is back!

[OomStruisbaai]

Here is enough Skotte and ABs to justice a thread on its own. Enough Saffers and one Frenchman to keep us busy. Dunno about the rest.

[Torquemada 1420]

Come on YMX, the excitement has just kicked off for Week 3 - Fin is back!

Just saw that on Bernol. Good luck with that. He'll win you 1 in 5 with a magic display when it all comes off and serve up a load of random sh*t for the rest. The game is littered with "genius" players who were terrible FHs because they simply did not have the brains, game management or temperament to be there. It's simply not a role suited for mavericks (if any role is at all in rugby these days): Spencer, Henson, Hook, Michalak........

Ntamack is another except he doesn't even serve up the flair these days.

[Slick]

Come on YMX, the excitement has just kicked off for Week 3 - Fin is back!

Just saw that on Bernol. Good luck with that. He'll win you 1 in 5 with a magic display when it all comes off and serve up a load of random sh*t for the rest. The game is littered with "genius" players who were terrible FHs because they simply did not have the brains, game management or temperament to be there. It's simply not a role suited for mavericks (if any role is at all in rugby these days): Spencer, Henson, Hook, Michalak........

Ntamack is another except he doesn't even serve up the flair these days.

Thanks for the heads up

[Torquemada 1420]

Come on YMX, the excitement has just kicked off for Week 3 - Fin is back!

Just saw that on Bernol. Good luck with that. He'll win you 1 in 5 with a magic display when it all comes off and serve up a load of random sh*t for the rest. The game is littered with "genius" players who were terrible FHs because they simply did not have the brains, game management or temperament to be there. It's simply not a role suited for mavericks (if any role is at all in rugby these days): Spencer, Henson, Hook, Michalak........

Ntamack is another except he doesn't even serve up the flair these days.

Thanks for the heads up

Touche