Week 4 : Wales v Georgia

[Paddington Bear]

Not an original observation but a couple of wins in Qatar would be disastrous for Welsh rugby

[fishfoodie]

Not an original observation but a couple of wins in Qatar would be disastrous for Welsh rugby

Yeah, their teams getting promotion to the Premiership happened at the worst time, & also, the policy of allowing players to still be selected, even if they weren't playing in Wales, meant that you weren't going to see the likes of LRZ, playing for your region, so regional rugby was significantly less attractive to watch.

[sockwithaticket]

Not an original observation but a couple of wins in Qatar would be disastrous for Welsh rugby

Yeah, their teams getting promotion to the Premiership happened at the worst time, & also, the policy of allowing players to still be selected, even if they weren't playing in Wales, meant that you weren't going to see the likes of LRZ, playing for your region, so regional rugby was significantly less attractive to watch.

Part of that issue is them not recognising and contracting young talent, see also Josh Adams and Tommy Reffel.

It's a tricky one for the Welsh, because they have a number of test quality players who've reached that level playing outside of Wales. Is bringing them back to the regions going to help them maintain that level of quality and thus boost the national team? I'd say no.

[fishfoodie]

Not an original observation but a couple of wins in Qatar would be disastrous for Welsh rugby

Yeah, their teams getting promotion to the Premiership happened at the worst time, & also, the policy of allowing players to still be selected, even if they weren't playing in Wales, meant that you weren't going to see the likes of LRZ, playing for your region, so regional rugby was significantly less attractive to watch.

Part of that issue is them not recognising and contracting young talent, see also Josh Adams and Tommy Reffel.

It's a tricky one for the Welsh, because they have a number of test quality players who've reached that level playing outside of Wales. Is bringing them back to the regions going to help them maintain that level of quality and thus boost the national team? I'd say no.

Beirne was let go from the Leinster setup to go to Scarlets, but as soon as the IRFU realized their fuckup, they made him an offer to come back to Munster.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, their teams getting promotion to the Premiership happened at the worst time, & also, the policy of allowing players to still be selected, even if they weren't playing in Wales, meant that you weren't going to see the likes of LRZ, playing for your region, so regional rugby was significantly less attractive to watch.

Part of that issue is them not recognising and contracting young talent, see also Josh Adams and Tommy Reffel.

It's a tricky one for the Welsh, because they have a number of test quality players who've reached that level playing outside of Wales. Is bringing them back to the regions going to help them maintain that level of quality and thus boost the national team? I'd say no.

Beirne was let go from the Leinster setup to go to Scarlets, but as soon as the IRFU realized their fuckup, they made him an offer to come back to Munster.

Which brings us back to, does returning to the regions actually maintain or improve the level of the player? Munster getting Beirne back in no way diminished him because it's a decent set up. Nick Tompkins absolutely rips it up for Sarries, but he looked garbage when on loan at the Dragons.

Does it improve the regions to get these players back? I don't really follow the URC, but I don't get the impression that making the likes of Rowlands and Moriarty cross the Severn has done an awful lot for the Dragons.

To bring us back to another point, Munster were well supported. Bringing a top external performer like Beirne back wasn't in part a ploy to try and put bums on seats.

In pure rugby terms, I think it's better for the Welsh national team to leave where they are those who develop to international standard elsewhere. That's clearly not the only consideration in play, though.

[Paddington Bear]

Not an original observation but a couple of wins in Qatar would be disastrous for Welsh rugby

Yeah, their teams getting promotion to the Premiership happened at the worst time, & also, the policy of allowing players to still be selected, even if they weren't playing in Wales, meant that you weren't going to see the likes of LRZ, playing for your region, so regional rugby was significantly less attractive to watch.

Welsh clubs not joining the English prem remains a colossally daft decision

[fishfoodie]

Part of that issue is them not recognising and contracting young talent, see also Josh Adams and Tommy Reffel.

It's a tricky one for the Welsh, because they have a number of test quality players who've reached that level playing outside of Wales. Is bringing them back to the regions going to help them maintain that level of quality and thus boost the national team? I'd say no.

Beirne was let go from the Leinster setup to go to Scarlets, but as soon as the IRFU realized their fuckup, they made him an offer to come back to Munster.

Which brings us back to, does returning to the regions actually maintain or improve the level of the player? Munster getting Beirne back in no way diminished him because it's a decent set up. Nick Tompkins absolutely rips it up for Sarries, but he looked garbage when on loan at the Dragons.

Does it improve the regions to get these players back? I don't really follow the URC, but I don't get the impression that making the likes of Rowlands and Moriarty cross the Severn has done an awful lot for the Dragons.

To bring us back to another point, Munster were well supported. Bringing a top external performer like Beirne back wasn't in part a ploy to try and put bums on seats.

In pure rugby terms, I think it's better for the Welsh national team to leave where they are those who develop to international standard elsewhere. That's clearly not the only consideration in play, though.

Oh this is certainly not a situation where there are any quick fixes to turn things around. From bottom to top Welsh Rugby needs reform !

[C69]

The regions being thrust upon the clubs and the fans and players was a disaster.

The Valleys have no teams at all now.
Fuck the WRU etc etc.

Football is stratospheric in Wales atm.

[Torquemada 1420]

Oh this is certainly not a situation where there are any quick fixes to turn things around. From bottom to top Welsh Rugby needs reform !

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

[Simian]

Oh this is certainly not a situation where there are any quick fixes to turn things around. From bottom to top Welsh Rugby needs reform !

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

How have you arrived at the conclusion Scarlets are the most successful region? Like, what are you basing that on?

For example, I'd have thought Cardiff's record in European competitions (similar numbers of QF and SF appearances to Scarlets, missed out on a spot in the final when they lost on penalties, and have won the Challenge Cup twice) was at least as good at Scarlets (personally, I think it's better)?

I broadly agree with the other points, just the bit about the scarlets raised an eyebrow.

[petej]

Oh this is certainly not a situation where there are any quick fixes to turn things around. From bottom to top Welsh Rugby needs reform !

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

How have you arrived at the conclusion Scarlets are the most successful region? Like, what are you basing that on?

Not trophies or current performance.
Scarlets are the worst welsh region currently. Arguably with 4 celtic leagues and an anglo-welsh cup the ospreys are the most succesful. scarlets have 2 celtic leagues. cardiff have 2 European challenge cups and an anglo-welsh cup.

[Simian]

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

How have you arrived at the conclusion Scarlets are the most successful region? Like, what are you basing that on?

Not trophies or current performance.
Scarlets are the worst welsh region currently. Arguably with 4 celtic leagues and an anglo-welsh cup the ospreys are the most succesful. scarlets have 2 celtic leagues. cardiff have 2 European challenge cups and an anglo-welsh cup.

That's the type of thing I was meaning (apologies, I edited my post to highlight Cardiff's European record, presumably while you were replying). Claiming the scarlets are the most successful welsh region (as Torq did) seemed pretty weird to me.

[Torquemada 1420]

Oh this is certainly not a situation where there are any quick fixes to turn things around. From bottom to top Welsh Rugby needs reform !

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

How have you arrived at the conclusion Scarlets are the most successful region? Like, what are you basing that on?

For example, I'd have thought Cardiff's record in European competitions (similar numbers of QF and SF appearances to Scarlets, missed out on a spot in the final when they lost on penalties, and have won the Challenge Cup twice) was at least as good at Scarlets (personally, I think it's better)?

I broadly agree with the other points, just the bit about the scarlets raised an eyebrow.

I entirely ignore the Mickey Mouse comp: by definition, you start there rather than the HEC proper means you were the weaker. Appreciate that has been confused over the years with various trickle downs from the HEC into the lower comp.

It's more of a gut feeling in the 25 odd years that Scarlets were a serious threat for a number of them. Recognise that Cardiff actually made the very 1st final but that is watered down by the fact that no English clubs partook and only Toulouse of the French teams gave more than a half arsed interest for many years.

Apologies if I've offended any Blues fans!

[Fonz]

The regions being thrust upon the clubs and the fans and players was a disaster.

The Valleys have no teams at all now.
Fuck the WRU etc etc.

Football is stratospheric in Wales atm.

Were there people at the time that had the balls to say “sorry Ebbw Vale et al, but you aren’t big enough to hang in pro rugby, so we’re going to just elevate Cardiff RFC, Swansea RFC, Newport RFC, and Llanelli RFC as those are places that can potentially handle a professional club”? Or was that just a total non-starter back then?

Because in hindsight it seems that is basically what needed to be done, and (from afar) more or less how it shook out over time anyway. Looks like you kinda got the worst of both worlds as it seems the regions apparently didn’t mitigate the alienation felt by those in the villages and towns, and yet the regions couldn’t really be said to totally be a continuation of the storied clubs above either (and instead give off the stench of being bland, made-uppy corporate creations that even those in Cardiff, Swansea etc can’t be arsed to care too much about)

[Simian]

No quick fixes.

1) The regions divide opinion but I was always in the camp that they were a terrible idea. Only the Scarlets have shown any measure of success and that's down to the fact that they basically remained as Llanelli. The Dragons might have done better but have been starved of funding. Support for the regions has been pitiful since inception.

2) Which leads us to point 2. The WRU's total pursuit of the national side & Millennium Stadium could, arguably, have succeeded at the top table as Wales have punched above their weight for many years. But watering the crown whilst starving the roots has come to bite them on the arse now. After the culled the Warriors and starved the Dragons, the WRU seriously thought they could maintain competitiveness with just 3 feeder sides?

How have you arrived at the conclusion Scarlets are the most successful region? Like, what are you basing that on?

For example, I'd have thought Cardiff's record in European competitions (similar numbers of QF and SF appearances to Scarlets, missed out on a spot in the final when they lost on penalties, and have won the Challenge Cup twice) was at least as good at Scarlets (personally, I think it's better)?

I broadly agree with the other points, just the bit about the scarlets raised an eyebrow.

I entirely ignore the Mickey Mouse comp: by definition, you start there rather than the HEC proper means you were the weaker. Appreciate that has been confused over the years with various trickle downs from the HEC into the lower comp.

It's more of a gut feeling in the 25 odd years that Scarlets were a serious threat for a number of them. Recognise that Cardiff actually made the very 1st final but that is watered down by the fact that no English clubs partook and only Toulouse of the French teams gave more than a half arsed interest for many years.

Apologies if I've offended any Blues fans!

I'm not a Blues fan. I just think you're talking total nonsense

[fishfoodie]

A grim read.

Everything we've been saying here, plus a sense that the WRU hasn't a fucking clue, & it's indecision is hurting everyone.

'The Welsh regions can't sign players, they can't retain players. It's just a mess'

WALES BOSS WAYNE Pivac is under pressure following last weekend’s first-ever defeat to Georgia, which came a few months after a shock home loss to Italy in the Six Nations.

The national team’s struggles are clear but the problems in Welsh rugby run much deeper.

On today’s edition of The42 Rugby Weekly Extra – a podcast available to members of The42 every Monday and Wednesday – Welsh rugby journalist Steffan Thomas laid bare the extent of the issues in the game there.

Among the problems Thomas highlighted is how the WRU and the four Welsh regions, the Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons and Cardiff, cannot nail down an agreement for a long-term financial model, meaning player recruitment and contracting is currently frozen.

That ensures huge uncertainty for Wales-based players right now.

“The top-end internationals obviously know subconsciously that they’re going to have contracts because they’re Lions, etc. but there are a lot of players at the regions who don’t know if they’re going to be professional rugby players next season,” explained Thomas.

“The regions just aren’t able to plan because they don’t know their playing budgets, they can’t sign players, they can’t retain players. It’s just a mess. How can you possibly have plans to be successful when that sort of thing is going on in the background?

“During the height of the Gatland era, a lot of people were saying – because the regions weren’t great then – that unless the WRU really invested in them, that the national team would eventually go downhill. We’re at that stage now and there’s a lack of leadership.

“You’ve also got the situation where there isn’t enough money in Wales for four professional teams. I think there’s going to have to be a harsh decision to be made. There were recommendations to the WRU which suggested they should cut to three teams. I wouldn’t like to see that but I don’t think Wales has enough top-quality players anymore or enough money to sustain four fully-functioning professional teams.

“The game in Wales at the moment is in a difficult place.”

https://www.the42.ie/rugby-weekly-extra ... 4-Nov2022/