England decides Scottish people are sub human, and shouldn't be allowed democracy.

[Line6 HXFX]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2 ... -indyref2

How is your clinging, scraming and nails in the face of the Scottish people, going to convince them you are a force for good Westminster?

[inactionman]

You're a bit early for the 6N spite thread.

[Line6 HXFX]

Never too early for a six nations spite thread.

[Torquemada 1420]

They have a double dose of democracy. They get to have their own house and vote in the English one too.

[petej]

They have a double dose of democracy. They get to have their own house and vote in the English one too.

Intentional?

Voting in the uk one is pointless for significant proportion of the population with so many safe seats. The 2nd UK house we don't get to vote on.

[dpedin]

They have a double dose of democracy. They get to have their own house and vote in the English one too.

Intentional?

Voting in the uk one is pointless for significant proportion of the population with so many safe seats. The 2nd UK house we don't get to vote on.

Ouch - you're spoiling this thread with facts again!

[Jim Lahey]

Do most of the Scottish posters on here favour independence, and if so, why?

Not trolling, just curious. I was living abroad for indyref and didn't really follow much of the debate leading up to it so don't understand all the arguments for it, apart from the obvious nationalistic appeal.

[Biffer]

Do most of the Scottish posters on here favour independence, and if so, why?

Not trolling, just curious. I was living abroad for indyref and didn't really follow much of the debate leading up to it so don't understand all the arguments for it, apart from the obvious nationalistic appeal.

I think its broadly even, on here tbh.

I’m in favour for the fundamental reason that we haven’t voted Tory here since 1955, but we’ve had Tory governments for about 45 years of that. Massive democratic deficit. As societies we want different things.

There’s also a broader historical point that for me, the union was a tool to deliver an empire. Since the death of empire, the UK’s place in the world has been I’ll defined and vague, leading to the shite we have going on now. You can see that in international affairs from Suez onwards, a fading empire power desperately wanting to have its power and influence maintained. In the seventies a large group of society tried to define a new role for Britain as part of a group of similar European countries who couldn’t have the influence on their own but together were very powerful. But we’ve decided that’s not for us either and we want to hark back to empire again. That’s not for me.

Britain will never have an honest relationship with its past while the UK exists.

[Ymx]

Do we think leaving the EU is a big enough reason to call for another ref so soon after the last one?

Genuine question.

[I like neeps]

Do we think leaving the EU is a big enough reason to call for another ref so soon after the last one?

Genuine question.

I can see both sides on this one.

Yes because EU membership being safe if we stay was a big campaigning point for the unionists.

And no because even as a Remainer you can't have neverendums as nobody will ever be happy on 51/49 issues so it creates a the paralysis both the UK and Scottish govt are on most domestic issues which is causing pretty depressing decline across both British and Scottish societies.

[dkm57]

I'm same as Biffer. The glaring democratic deficit is what really hacks me off alongside the constant drivel from the English centric media.

I really don't think we'll be much better off as an independent nation but it sure as hell isn't going to get any better the way things are being run from London whether by Tory or Labour.

The old Oil argument has been superceded by the fact that Scotland is now 100% self sufficient in electricity to the extent that power is exported to England, yet Scotland's generators and customers pay more. How the f#ck is that justifiable? Instead of using the Oil dividend to invest in infrastructure etc., like Norway, Westminster pissed it up a wall on bread and circuses to keep their English constituents happy.

I'm not anti English (another rancid old trope). Although I have called Scotland my home for all bar the first 6 months of my life and have represented her in sport, I was born in Sussex, went to an English public school and still have a deep affection for parts of the country.

[Tichtheid]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

[Biffer]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

This is also a good point. I haven’t heard any argument from the pro union side which presents a positive vision of the UK in the future, only negative visions of Scotland and misty eyed bullshit about the past

[Jim Lahey]

As someone that is born and raised in NI, I'll never understand why the British government/the English haven't told us to fuck right off. We are nothing but trouble, cost a fortune and provide bugger all in return. Same probably with the Welsh (without the bombs and shootings).

I say the above as someone that is agnostic on the constitutional status of NI. I don't particularly feel strongly unionist or republican.

[Uncle fester]

The Scots have always been less insular then the English. Part of that was survival mechanism in establishing alliances with continental European countries. Easy enough to go back to that again with a ready-made European bloc to cosy up to.

[Blackmac]

I'm same as Biffer. The glaring democratic deficit is what really hacks me off alongside the constant drivel from the English centric media.

I really don't think we'll be much better off as an independent nation but it sure as hell isn't going to get any better the way things are being run from London whether by Tory or Labour.

The old Oil argument has been superceded by the fact that Scotland is now 100% self sufficient in electricity to the extent that power is exported to England, yet Scotland's generators and customers pay more. How the f#ck is that justifiable? Instead of using the Oil dividend to invest in infrastructure etc., like Norway, Westminster pissed it up a wall on bread and circuses to keep their English constituents happy.

I'm not anti English (another rancid old trope). Although I have called Scotland my home for all bar the first 6 months of my life and have represented her in sport, I was born in Sussex, went to an English public school and still have a deep affection for parts of the country.

Has the 100% self sufficiency claim not been heavily refuted. It's like car manufacturers mileage claims that are achieved under optimal conditions. National Grid recently reported that whilst Scotland can, in optimal conditions produce 100% of its own energy, it has never actually achieved more than 53%.

[Ymx]

Are there any posters with pro-union takes on it?

Everyone here seems to be for independence.

Personally, I’ve not actually met a Scottish person who calls themselves British. Only ever some English people who call themselves British.

Although I expect the Indy majority to stay was not about how they identify, but instead for simple economics.

Do Scots believe the economics still stack up post leave?

[Slick]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

I’d say that’s nonsense, for the vast majority of those that would vote no, it’s the only issue.

As I’ve said many times before, I just don’t believe that many people are completely ideological opposed to independence and I don’t think there are that many people that are committed unionists, I’m certainly not. There are even fewer people who would choose to be governed from Westminster, all things being equal. For most problem it’s an economic argument and there are pretty much zero answers coming to pretty basic questions about that.

I swing fairly wildly from definite no to maybe yes, but until there is serious discussion and debate about the economics of it all I’ll probably vote no.

[petej]

I'm same as Biffer. The glaring democratic deficit is what really hacks me off alongside the constant drivel from the English centric media.

I really don't think we'll be much better off as an independent nation but it sure as hell isn't going to get any better the way things are being run from London whether by Tory or Labour.

The old Oil argument has been superceded by the fact that Scotland is now 100% self sufficient in electricity to the extent that power is exported to England, yet Scotland's generators and customers pay more. How the f#ck is that justifiable? Instead of using the Oil dividend to invest in infrastructure etc., like Norway, Westminster pissed it up a wall on bread and circuses to keep their English constituents happy.

I'm not anti English (another rancid old trope). Although I have called Scotland my home for all bar the first 6 months of my life and have represented her in sport, I was born in Sussex, went to an English public school and still have a deep affection for parts of the country.

Has the 100% self sufficiency claim not been heavily refuted. It's like car manufacturers mileage claims that are achieved under optimal conditions. National Grid recently reported that whilst Scotland can, in optimal conditions produce 100% of its own energy, it has never actually achieved more than 53%.

53% of its own electricity or energy? I would be very surprised if Scotland has not produced 100% of its own electricity from renewables at various points which would considering heat and transport not be any more 53% of total energy.

https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... RenElecGen
https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... mptionFuel
FYI 63.1% of scotlands electricity is renewable last year. 83.6 % low carbon IE renewable + nuclear

[Biffer]

The most basic part of the economics is that other small Northern European countries, similar size, similar GDP, make a good go of it. There’s no reason we can’t.

[Blackmac]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

I’d say that’s nonsense, for the vast majority of those that would vote no, it’s the only issue.

As I’ve said many times before, I just don’t believe that many people are completely ideological opposed to independence and I don’t think there are that many people that are committed unionists, I’m certainly not. There are even fewer people who would choose to be governed from Westminster, all things being equal. For most problem it’s an economic argument and there are pretty much zero answers coming to pretty basic questions about that.

I swing fairly wildly from definite no to maybe yes, but until there is serious discussion and debate about the economics of it all I’ll probably vote no.

I'm very much the same. The current farce in Westminster makes me think "fuck it, things could hardly be worse". I then look at the sheer lack of ability in the current SNP government and think, given the huge economic complications associated with independence, that there just is not the ability to pull it off. That anxiety is heightened even more when you see any of them trying to give answers to the most basic questions. Even the party political broadcasts provide no answers just the usual "freedom" bollocks.

[Biffer]

I'm same as Biffer. The glaring democratic deficit is what really hacks me off alongside the constant drivel from the English centric media.

I really don't think we'll be much better off as an independent nation but it sure as hell isn't going to get any better the way things are being run from London whether by Tory or Labour.

The old Oil argument has been superceded by the fact that Scotland is now 100% self sufficient in electricity to the extent that power is exported to England, yet Scotland's generators and customers pay more. How the f#ck is that justifiable? Instead of using the Oil dividend to invest in infrastructure etc., like Norway, Westminster pissed it up a wall on bread and circuses to keep their English constituents happy.

I'm not anti English (another rancid old trope). Although I have called Scotland my home for all bar the first 6 months of my life and have represented her in sport, I was born in Sussex, went to an English public school and still have a deep affection for parts of the country.

Has the 100% self sufficiency claim not been heavily refuted. It's like car manufacturers mileage claims that are achieved under optimal conditions. National Grid recently reported that whilst Scotland can, in optimal conditions produce 100% of its own energy, it has never actually achieved more than 53%.

53% of its own electricity or energy? I would be very surprised if Scotland has not produced 100% of its own electricity from renewables at various points which would considering heat and transport not be any more 53% of total energy.

https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... RenElecGen
https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... mptionFuel
FYI 63.1% of scotlands electricity is renewable last year. 83.6 % low carbon IE renewable + nuclear

And we produce 40-50% more than we need.

[Blackmac]

I'm same as Biffer. The glaring democratic deficit is what really hacks me off alongside the constant drivel from the English centric media.

I really don't think we'll be much better off as an independent nation but it sure as hell isn't going to get any better the way things are being run from London whether by Tory or Labour.

The old Oil argument has been superceded by the fact that Scotland is now 100% self sufficient in electricity to the extent that power is exported to England, yet Scotland's generators and customers pay more. How the f#ck is that justifiable? Instead of using the Oil dividend to invest in infrastructure etc., like Norway, Westminster pissed it up a wall on bread and circuses to keep their English constituents happy.

I'm not anti English (another rancid old trope). Although I have called Scotland my home for all bar the first 6 months of my life and have represented her in sport, I was born in Sussex, went to an English public school and still have a deep affection for parts of the country.

Has the 100% self sufficiency claim not been heavily refuted. It's like car manufacturers mileage claims that are achieved under optimal conditions. National Grid recently reported that whilst Scotland can, in optimal conditions produce 100% of its own energy, it has never actually achieved more than 53%.

53% of its own electricity or energy? I would be very surprised if Scotland has not produced 100% of its own electricity from renewables at various points which would considering heat and transport not be any more 53% of total energy.

https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... RenElecGen
https://scotland.shinyapps.io/sg-scotti ... mptionFuel
FYI 63.1% of scotlands electricity is renewable last year. 83.6 % low carbon IE renewable + nuclear

I was quite shocked myself to be honest, but as it says, yes the ability is there but it has never been achieved.

[Jim Lahey]

The most basic part of the economics is that other small Northern European countries, similar size, similar GDP, make a good go of it. There’s no reason we can’t.

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

[petej]

The most basic part of the economics is that other small Northern European countries, similar size, similar GDP, make a good go of it. There’s no reason we can’t.

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

[dkm57]

By March 2020 Scotland was producing 97% from renewables. Even just locally some huge onshore windfarms have been brought on stream. So would expect generation to be meeting requirements by now no matter how it's spun. It's not in the interest of NG to be up front any more than the generators and suppliers are.

Tidal is only at the prototype stage and because of it's position Scotland has some of the best tidal potential in Europe. We already have well developed Hydro and Wind so at least in terms of power generation Scotland is well placed.

[Jim Lahey]

The most basic part of the economics is that other small Northern European countries, similar size, similar GDP, make a good go of it. There’s no reason we can’t.

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

[Slick]

The most basic part of the economics is that other small Northern European countries, similar size, similar GDP, make a good go of it. There’s no reason we can’t.

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

Exactly, I’ve not no doubt at all we can be successful as a small independent nation and much more successful at forging alliances etc. But it’s a very long haul and there is just no honesty in the debate

[Slick]

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

[Jim Lahey]

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

Yeah would be a painful process. Would require a strong stomach from the Scots after the shitshows of Brexit, Covid and 2022, to go for another shit show.

Would work out after 4 or 5 years if they can get EU membership. What's the expected lead time to join the EU?

[petej]

In the long run an independent Scotland would readjust and be fine. Its the short-term transitional period that's the issue: the amount of pain involved and the length of time it takes to re-adjust. Same with Brexit and the UK imo.

The hunger has to be there for the ST pain, and unlike the UK and Brexit, the Scottish public need to be ready for, and accepting of it.

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

That is a difference between ROI and Scotland. The comparison to Brexit is unfair. Scotland would definitely have a painful adjustment but unlike the UK has a very clear idea that it wants to be part of the EU so knows trading relationships it wants- the UK still doesn't have a fucking clue 6+ years after brexit. The challenge to Scotland would be to get into the EU ASAP.

[Biffer]

Not the same. Brexit is full on turd. Scotland would be readjusting into a bigger market with the benefits that entails. Go look at Irelands recent figures. They have benefitted from Brexit at the expense of the UK. Scotland know the destination and what they would be doing with their trading relationships with the rest of the world, the uncertainty would be with the relationship with the rest of the UK only. The UK still hasn't the foggiest idea with Brexit what it wants to do with it.

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

That’s why EFTA is a good option. Better access to Europe but with the freedom to have your own deals as well. So a deal with the UK - which is necessary for the UK, not least for electricity generation given 30% of what’s generated in Scotland goes south of the border - and improved access to European markets. One of the things that annoys me is the idea that it’s an entirely one way relationship with no benefit to England.

There are a lot of people in the EU who would take the opportunity to rub the rest of the UKs face in it by good relations with Scotland.

[I like neeps]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

I’d say that’s nonsense, for the vast majority of those that would vote no, it’s the only issue.

As I’ve said many times before, I just don’t believe that many people are completely ideological opposed to independence and I don’t think there are that many people that are committed unionists, I’m certainly not. There are even fewer people who would choose to be governed from Westminster, all things being equal. For most problem it’s an economic argument and there are pretty much zero answers coming to pretty basic questions about that.

I swing fairly wildly from definite no to maybe yes, but until there is serious discussion and debate about the economics of it all I’ll probably vote no.

I agree slick, I'm a bit confused by TH's comment here. Most people (myself included when I voted no to indy) would say the economic arguments are the most convincing. Of course, you'll never hear a convincing argument if you decide to be unconvinced by some of the main ones. In the short to medium term indy as with brexit would be very damaging economically. And as you can see in economically depressed parts of Scotland the social problems we sadly experience are more prevalent.

The declinist narrative of the UK and being a part in it is convincing. But consider Europe isn't forging ahead and indeed has countries such as Poland and Hungary taking the piss. The United States you can be a bit more positive about but just last year there was a violent insurrection. The entire West is in decline as rogue states (look at the world cup in Qatar) gain power over the global economy with their energy reserves. Russia being given a bloody nose in Ukraine is the counter narrative of course.

[Paddington Bear]

The Scots have always been less insular then the English. Part of that was survival mechanism in establishing alliances with continental European countries. Easy enough to go back to that again with a ready-made European bloc to cosy up to.

How does this historical note take into account, you know, the vast majority of recorded English history? We didn’t exactly close in ourselves like the Japanese

[petej]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

I’d say that’s nonsense, for the vast majority of those that would vote no, it’s the only issue.

As I’ve said many times before, I just don’t believe that many people are completely ideological opposed to independence and I don’t think there are that many people that are committed unionists, I’m certainly not. There are even fewer people who would choose to be governed from Westminster, all things being equal. For most problem it’s an economic argument and there are pretty much zero answers coming to pretty basic questions about that.

I swing fairly wildly from definite no to maybe yes, but until there is serious discussion and debate about the economics of it all I’ll probably vote no.

I agree slick, I'm a bit confused by TH's comment here. Most people (myself included when I voted no to indy) would say the economic arguments are the most convincing. Of course, you'll never hear a convincing argument if you decide to be unconvinced by some of the main ones. In the short to medium term indy as with brexit would be very damaging economically. And as you can see in economically depressed parts of Scotland the social problems we sadly experience are more prevalent.

The declinist narrative of the UK and being a part in it is convincing. But consider Europe isn't forging ahead and indeed has countries such as Poland and Hungary taking the piss. The United States you can be a bit more positive about but just last year there was a violent insurrection. The entire West is in decline as rogue states (look at the world cup in Qatar) gain power over the global economy with their energy reserves. Russia being given a bloody nose in Ukraine is the counter narrative of course.

I disagree with a lot of this narrative. The strength of those countries with energy reserves I think is diminishing due to renewables and reduced energy consumption from the west which is why Russia has attacked now. the fact that for most of the last 15 years we've let these countries take the piss and are now objecting to it shows a bit of a waking up.

Scotland at a brutal level shouldn't be as poor as it is unless it isn't benefitting from the natural resources it has. UK isn't at a Russian level of resource extraction from a region with zero benefits to that region but is a long way from the likes or Norway. It is no wonder many of Putin's UK based oligarchs have donated to the Tories.

[JM2K6]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

Hmm, I think that's not really the starting point. The onus is on those proposing a huge change to provide the reasoning for it. And on top of that, you're essentially asking for people to defend not wanting that change while not allowing reference to one of the biggest, most logical fears about it.

It's not like choosing which of two items to buy, or which fork in the road to take, or which new job to accept. It's not a choice between two equally disruptive and potentially damaging changes of course. As with all things, those proposing the major change need to be convincing everyone else.


Anyway, to be clear, I don't have a clue which is the "best" option for Scotland, and my only feelings on this are a) I'd be sad if Scotland voted to leave but would understand and support the decision, and b) Scotland should be allowed to express this view and take it to another vote if there is very strong evidence another vote would lead to a very different outcome.

I'm not a fan of "well you voted on this already so you can't change your minds" when so much has happened with such far-reaching consequences since the original vote.

[Big D]

I'm not a fan of "well you voted on this already so you can't change your minds" when so much has happened with such far-reaching consequences since the original vote.

I agree with that. Based on brexit I would advocate a vote to confirm the decision based on the deal available as in these votes the remain side only get one chance to lose.

[Biffer]

The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

Hmm, I think that's not really the starting point. The onus is on those proposing a huge change to provide the reasoning for it. And on top of that, you're essentially asking for people to defend not wanting that change while not allowing reference to one of the biggest, most logical fears about it.

It's not like choosing which of two items to buy, or which fork in the road to take, or which new job to accept. It's not a choice between two equally disruptive and potentially damaging changes of course. As with all things, those proposing the major change need to be convincing everyone else.


Anyway, to be clear, I don't have a clue which is the "best" option for Scotland, and my only feelings on this are a) I'd be sad if Scotland voted to leave but would understand and support the decision, and b) Scotland should be allowed to express this view and take it to another vote if there is very strong evidence another vote would lead to a very different outcome.

I'm not a fan of "well you voted on this already so you can't change your minds" when so much has happened with such far-reaching consequences since the original vote.

I think the reason to do it is as I described previously - elections over decades say Scotland wants something different from the rest of the UK.

Now some people will cast doubt on that and point to things like the social attitudes surveys, but if there’s no difference, then why are election results so consistently different? Every region of England has returned majority Tory MPs at points during that period of time.

An economic argument in favour of it isn’t really my idea of motivation, as that’s just a reflection of a more-for-us mentality, and I don’t want to be part of that. But building a society that more reflects either a European social democracy, or a Scandinavian style state, is what I want us to do. The UK will not go down that road, as it has proved repeatedly over the last 50 years.

The economics come in as reasons NOT to do it though. As I said earlier, on a gross, macro scale there’s absolutely no reason Scotland can’t prosper independently. Plenty of countries our size, many with less in the way of natural resources, do very well.

[Slick]

Well the difference there surely is that ROI is in the EU and Scotland wouldn't be (well, for a few years at least anyway).

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

Yeah would be a painful process. Would require a strong stomach from the Scots after the shitshows of Brexit, Covid and 2022, to go for another shit show.

Would work out after 4 or 5 years if they can get EU membership. What's the expected lead time to join the EU?

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

[dpedin]

For me the biggest problem is the drift of the English and therefore UK Gov away from a centralist agenda to a xenophobic, right wing populist agenda and the desire of both Labour and Tories to align themselves with the likes of Farage/UKIP and being petrified of being associated with a more moderate, centralist agenda. I honestly don't believe Scottish politics has moved that far left or right in the last 20-30 years and is still broadly aligned to a northern European economic and social model however the English political agenda has shifted hugely to the right and moved far more closely to the US capitalist model. We Scots aren't comfortable at all with this and feel we are being dragged out of an economic and political model which was a bit more about social fairness, redistribution of wealth and looking after everyone in society into an English driven model of US economics driven by privatisation of national assets, greed, profit, centralisation of wealth and marginalisation of the poor, disabled and old. For example no one in Scotland is all that bothered about our slightly different tax rates where the high earners pay a little bit more, the vast majority are happy to pay a bit extra in return for free prescriptions, social care, no bedroom tax, etc. Similarly despite its problems we are thankful of our nationalised Scottish Water and are looking on aghast at the destruction of English rivers and beaches by private water companies.The frustration that arises and hence the support of the independence agenda is driven by the increasing awareness that we can do precious little in reality to stop this right wing agenda and key issues like the destruction of the NHS by remaining within the UK. Our hands are tied!

The recent shift in the energy crisis has made Scots more aware of the huge natural resources we have and their value to the UK and wider EU. Oil and gas, wind, tidal and hydro renewables, fresh clean water, agriculture, etc have suddenly all grown in importance and made folk realise that the UK Gov have frittered it away and let big businesses profit hugely out of our resources whilst we look enviously at the likes of Norway and their huge Sovereign Wealth Funds. Also the implosion of the Tory Gov, the corruption and the social inequity has merely made more folk think that we couldn't do any worse than the bunch of muppets in charge in Westminster and could probably do a good bit better especially if we can align ourselves far more closely to the EU, we watch the NI economy do rather well with a degree of envy.

Bottom line is probably a lot of Scots are thinking fuck it, these cunts in charge in Westminster are a bunch of hopeless, racist, right wing posh twats and if we can't see any change in that then lets go all in and run Scotland ourselves, it surely couldn't be any worse than being lectured by Jacob feckin Rees feckin Mogg!