The Official English Rugby Thread

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I my find myself not particularly wanting to watch England at the moment.

Yep - my local club end up sending their ticket allocation back because no one want to fork out a fortune to watch England play. I certainly don't.

SaintK probably best placed to advise on this but I know of a number of clubs in this position. I could have gone to all three tier one games having been offered tickets at face value in the week of the game, which is pretty unheard of. If anything forces the RFU’s hand here that’ll be it. They’re charging prices where you can justifiably expect to see top tier rugby and that’s not what is being served up, even before the coach comes out and says he’s not that fussed about the game

I'll quote a mate of mine who largely gave up watching Spurs some years (decades?) ago.

"I've seen alot of Champagne football unfortunately most of it has been played by the other team"

[Glaston]

Can the RFU afford to fire him? I notice the younger players are slowly getting worse as they spend more time with Jones and his coaching team.

Probably, if they really wanted to. I suspect results would need to be worse than they are to force them to that point given the shite they've already put up with and the difficulty of getting a replacement in with 1 international window left before the World Cup.

How much worse than 1 win, against Japan?

There is always the game against Italy in the 6N .

[Kawazaki]

More whispers that the players think Jones is a cunt as well.

[sockwithaticket]

At this point there's a clear core of established players who either get on with Eddie's methods (belittling, harassment via text in the wee hours of the morning etc.), are unphased by them and/or can tolerate the nonsense. They are, however, now surrounded by quite a number of less established, more inexperienced players who are likely treated much better at their clubs where they also play rugby that's actually fun to participate in. They'll be looking around at the environment and going 'This is the top of the English game?'. Many of them have never experienced that environment really delivering. Mixed bag is a generous description of 2021 to now both in terms of results and performances. 2020 at least delivered results even if it was via turgid, eye-gougingly crap rugby (which I think we can now put down to NZ and SA being quarantined on the other side of the world and our near neighbour teams being in their first year of post-cup rebuilds).

[Kawazaki]

I've mentioned it before - the huge playing fee that England pay is, in my opinion, counterproductive. It insulates Jones massively. Make the fee £5k with a £20k winning bonus.

[sockwithaticket]

Did they not make it more of a squad fee recently? So most of the money is shared out between the squad, with a litle bit more for those that turn out on match day.

That, if anything, insulates him more. While some players are earning a bit less than they were, others are earning more and they're all reliant on Eddie continuing to select them to get it.

As I type, Hassell-Collins just ran in an absolute screamer for Irish to bring them level with Tigers.

Irish also lifting their inside centre in the lineout as the receiver and scoring from the maul to put lie to the idea you need 3 locks on the pitch.

[Kawazaki]

Jones salary is £750,000pa plus huge perks (lived in a 5* hotel for years FFS).

[Paddington Bear]

I assume the review will be:
‘Appreciate our amazing fans’
‘Disappointing 2022 but great young players’
Some mistakes made but Eddie has promised not to do it again
Distraction technique by announcing next HC for after the world cup (likely Robertson now)
‘Full confidence in squad’
Pray we beat Scotland at home

[sockwithaticket]

Leicester squeak past Irish in the end. Hope Margin's alright, at least Pearson got over the whitewash in impressive fashion.

I assume the review will be:
‘Appreciate our amazing fans’
‘Disappointing 2022 but great young players’
Some mistakes made but Eddie has promised not to do it again
Distraction technique by announcing next HC for after the world cup (likely Robertson now)
‘Full confidence in squad’
Pray we beat Scotland at home

If we go a fifth year without beating the Scots...

[Margin__Walker]

Leicester squeak past Irish in the end. Hope Margin's alright, at least Pearson got over the whitewash in impressive fashion.

I don't think we're ever going to win a game again.

That's the forth of our losses this season by my count that we should have won and were probably on balance the better team.

Pearson and OHC excellent as usual. I really have no idea how you drop a guy like Pearson out of the squad and end up playing a lock on the flank.

[Kawazaki]

Brass neck bullshit. Jones is selling.

Eddie Jones remained defiant in the wake of mounting criticism over England's performances after their defeat to South Africa, with the England head coach insisting he has a plan in place to win the Rugby World Cup next year.
Jones' worst year in charge with only five wins from 12 matches has left England going into 2023 under huge pressure to turn things around in the Six Nations ahead of the Rugby World Cup.
"I’ve got a plan for how England can win the World Cup, but it doesn’t go in a perfect line. Sometimes you need these games to make you understand the areas which need to be bolstered," Jones explained, before insisting that defeat to South Africa did not mean England's plans were disrupted.
"We’re not off track. You have days like that. I’ve had worse days than that. We felt really confident going into the game."
While Jones would not explain his issue with how the scrums were officiated by referee Angus Gardner, he stressed that he had "grave concerns" about how that area was refereed. "But that’s part of the deal isn’t it? You’ve got to live with that. I think we do need to improve in the scrum, but probably not as radically as you guys think," Jones added.
Ellis Genge, England's replacement prop, offered more insight into why the scrum calls went against England, with both of their front rows struggling.
"You’ve seen it with Sarries for years in the Prem and with Leicester when we were dominant last year. You get the 50/50s because you’re so dominant. It’s human nature. I’m not going to argue with it, I’d probably be the same," Genge explained.
"South Africa are renowned for being the best scrum so if the scrum goes down they’re probably going to get the call. We have to work twice as hard to keep it up and do our job. That’s not me taking anything away from them, they’re absolutely brilliant in that area. But are the odd 50/50s going their way? Of course they are. And rightly so because they’re so good in that area."
There are multiple problem areas for England to address, particularly their stunted attack. Yet Jones, somewhat defensively, insisted to supporters that there was enough time for England to peak for the World Cup.
“Hundred per cent. And I am sure [fans] will have doubts like you guys. I am standing in front of you and you’re telling me I don’t know how to coach, basically. Right? So that’s alright, and I am sure some of the fans feel like that. But, you know, it’s a progression to the World Cup, we have our ups and downs, today we were badly beaten at the scrum, and therefore the rest of the game becomes very difficult to judge."

https://archive.ph/R06nR

[Paddington Bear]

If we’re going to blame the ref I’d have started with Faf knocking on just before a try rather than focussing on our poleaxed scrum

[petej]

If we’re going to blame the ref I’d have started with Faf knocking on just before a try rather than focussing on our poleaxed scrum

We might not like it but applying pressure to the refs is a must particularly considering SA behaviour. If you don't you are at a disadvantage. Rugby needed to set an example by punishing the bad behaviour but hasn't beyond some weak bans that have had no impact on the offending team.

[Kawazaki]

Stuart Barnes at last drops the subtlety about Jones. Even describes him as a conman which is spot on. He suggests Wayne Smith as the quick fix replacement for the RWC.

https://archive.ph/2YCNz

[Paddington Bear]

The press is pretty vitriolic across the board.
In the end the thing that will jolt the RFU into action, or not, is ticket sales for the 6N. There's a half decent chance that they're not going to sell out the Italy game at this rate.

[ASMO]

The press is pretty vitriolic across the board.
In the end the thing that will jolt the RFU into action, or not, is ticket sales for the 6N. There's a half decent chance that they're not going to sell out the Italy game at this rate.

They keep emailing me telling me as a part of the Supporters Club i can have 4 tickets to that game, not a fucking chance will i part with a penny to go watch that shower,

[Paddington Bear]

The press is pretty vitriolic across the board.
In the end the thing that will jolt the RFU into action, or not, is ticket sales for the 6N. There's a half decent chance that they're not going to sell out the Italy game at this rate.

They keep emailing me telling me as a part of the Supporters Club i can have 4 tickets to that game, not a fucking chance will i part with a penny to go watch that shower,

Likewise which is why I checked this morning. £93 a pop in the Upper North! They can't have kept a straight face setting these prices. Distinctly remember going to this game coming up from uni with a few mates not a horrendously long time ago for £40 each.

[Torquemada 1420]

Brass neck bullshit. Jones is selling.

Eddie Jones remained defiant in the wake of mounting criticism over England's performances after their defeat to South Africa, with the England head coach insisting he has a plan in place to win the Rugby World Cup next year.
Jones' worst year in charge with only five wins from 12 matches has left England going into 2023 under huge pressure to turn things around in the Six Nations ahead of the Rugby World Cup.
"I’ve got a plan for how England can win the World Cup, but it doesn’t go in a perfect line. Sometimes you need these games to make you understand the areas which need to be bolstered," Jones explained, before insisting that defeat to South Africa did not mean England's plans were disrupted.
"We’re not off track. You have days like that. I’ve had worse days than that. We felt really confident going into the game."
While Jones would not explain his issue with how the scrums were officiated by referee Angus Gardner, he stressed that he had "grave concerns" about how that area was refereed. "But that’s part of the deal isn’t it? You’ve got to live with that. I think we do need to improve in the scrum, but probably not as radically as you guys think," Jones added.
Ellis Genge, England's replacement prop, offered more insight into why the scrum calls went against England, with both of their front rows struggling.
"You’ve seen it with Sarries for years in the Prem and with Leicester when we were dominant last year. You get the 50/50s because you’re so dominant. It’s human nature. I’m not going to argue with it, I’d probably be the same," Genge explained.
"South Africa are renowned for being the best scrum so if the scrum goes down they’re probably going to get the call. We have to work twice as hard to keep it up and do our job. That’s not me taking anything away from them, they’re absolutely brilliant in that area. But are the odd 50/50s going their way? Of course they are. And rightly so because they’re so good in that area."
There are multiple problem areas for England to address, particularly their stunted attack. Yet Jones, somewhat defensively, insisted to supporters that there was enough time for England to peak for the World Cup.
“Hundred per cent. And I am sure [fans] will have doubts like you guys. I am standing in front of you and you’re telling me I don’t know how to coach, basically. Right? So that’s alright, and I am sure some of the fans feel like that. But, you know, it’s a progression to the World Cup, we have our ups and downs, today we were badly beaten at the scrum, and therefore the rest of the game becomes very difficult to judge."

https://archive.ph/R06nR

Genge living in the same Lala Land as Jones. There were no 50/50s. Eng were taken to the cleaners in the scrum and the only wrong call was the 1st one...... which went to Eng.

[Slick]

Think this might be the tipping point

[Paddington Bear]

Brass neck bullshit. Jones is selling.

Eddie Jones remained defiant in the wake of mounting criticism over England's performances after their defeat to South Africa, with the England head coach insisting he has a plan in place to win the Rugby World Cup next year.
Jones' worst year in charge with only five wins from 12 matches has left England going into 2023 under huge pressure to turn things around in the Six Nations ahead of the Rugby World Cup.
"I’ve got a plan for how England can win the World Cup, but it doesn’t go in a perfect line. Sometimes you need these games to make you understand the areas which need to be bolstered," Jones explained, before insisting that defeat to South Africa did not mean England's plans were disrupted.
"We’re not off track. You have days like that. I’ve had worse days than that. We felt really confident going into the game."
While Jones would not explain his issue with how the scrums were officiated by referee Angus Gardner, he stressed that he had "grave concerns" about how that area was refereed. "But that’s part of the deal isn’t it? You’ve got to live with that. I think we do need to improve in the scrum, but probably not as radically as you guys think," Jones added.
Ellis Genge, England's replacement prop, offered more insight into why the scrum calls went against England, with both of their front rows struggling.
"You’ve seen it with Sarries for years in the Prem and with Leicester when we were dominant last year. You get the 50/50s because you’re so dominant. It’s human nature. I’m not going to argue with it, I’d probably be the same," Genge explained.
"South Africa are renowned for being the best scrum so if the scrum goes down they’re probably going to get the call. We have to work twice as hard to keep it up and do our job. That’s not me taking anything away from them, they’re absolutely brilliant in that area. But are the odd 50/50s going their way? Of course they are. And rightly so because they’re so good in that area."
There are multiple problem areas for England to address, particularly their stunted attack. Yet Jones, somewhat defensively, insisted to supporters that there was enough time for England to peak for the World Cup.
“Hundred per cent. And I am sure [fans] will have doubts like you guys. I am standing in front of you and you’re telling me I don’t know how to coach, basically. Right? So that’s alright, and I am sure some of the fans feel like that. But, you know, it’s a progression to the World Cup, we have our ups and downs, today we were badly beaten at the scrum, and therefore the rest of the game becomes very difficult to judge."

https://archive.ph/R06nR

Genge living in the same Lala Land as Jones. There were no 50/50s. Eng were taken to the cleaners in the scrum and the only wrong call was the 1st one...... which went to Eng.

Yep there's some brass neck to this discussion. Our scrum was destroyed as comprehensively as it is possible to have been destroyed. It hasn't been great all year. Take it on the chin.

[sockwithaticket]

Nah. Eddie's going to spend the rest of his tenure, barring an unlikely substantial improvement in performances and results, being hated by the English rugby public and press, but he's going to stay put. He earns more than enough per year to shoulder that.

There's no one of quality who will want to swoop in for 9 months to try and sort things out before the world cup. Someone like Wayne Smith is a pipe dream, he's explicitly stated he doesn't want to coach anyone who might play NZ in the pas and I doubt that's changed.

[Brazil]

The irony is that this is usually the situation when teams call in Eddie Jones to turn things round in short order. Maybe if we clone him we can get the version that's good for a limited period.

[Torquemada 1420]

The irony is that this is usually the situation when teams call in Eddie Jones to turn things round in short order. Maybe if we clone him we can get the version that's good for a limited period.

Has rugby ever been in such a state of malcontent in regards management at all levels?

[inactionman]

I put it here, although of more general interest - World Rugby looking at a 'shot clock' to get teams to get fingers out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63782112

I still think 60 seconds is too long for a kick, and anything to speed up scrums will be most welcome. The only problem I see with timing scrums is the fact it takes both teams to engage, so might be a bit tricky to apportion blame.

[Slick]

I put it here, although of more general interest - World Rugby looking at a 'shot clock' to get teams to get fingers out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63782112

I still think 60 seconds is too long for a kick, and anything to speed up scrums will be most welcome. The only problem I see with timing scrums is the fact it takes both teams to engage, so might be a bit tricky to apportion blame.

I think they have this is the Top14 and it seems to work OK

[inactionman]

I put it here, although of more general interest - World Rugby looking at a 'shot clock' to get teams to get fingers out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63782112

I still think 60 seconds is too long for a kick, and anything to speed up scrums will be most welcome. The only problem I see with timing scrums is the fact it takes both teams to engage, so might be a bit tricky to apportion blame.

I think they have this is the Top14 and it seems to work OK

They've got it for kicks in league, although I wasn't aware of it being such an issue in league it seems to be pretty straightforward. I think the scrum is going to require more thought - do the top14 time scrums as well, do you know?

Could always impose times for front rows to be ready to engage, I suppose, so if one side is tardy they can be penalised.

[pjm1]

Well that was shit. And not at all unexpected, really.

Even good teams being coached well by decent coaches have their off games. At this level, two Tier 1 (ish!) teams need to both be on their game, otherwise the one that isn't will likely lose. It comes down to fine margins, even when things are otherwise working well. It's also what makes our game exiting and kept us all hoping, even when the All Blacks were on their multi-year rout of the rest of the world. 2012s can happen...

But what I saw on Saturday was something else...

• Poor selection - smacked of ulterior motives for why some are chosen and others are cast adrift
• Shocking tactics and game plan... AGAIN - felt like Nick Leeson doubling down because... well, he can't be that wrong can he?
• Good players who are in reasonable form just not playing well - not a single one, which means it's more than just bad luck
• Combinations still not working - goes back to the game plan problem... we're backed into a corner and not going to admit it's actually fucked
• Lacklustre efforts, emotion and drive - very few of the players ever looked up for it
• Bullshit excuses - from players who clearly know they cannot say anything other than the party line
• The fact this is all happening together, for the umpteenth time - enough is enough.

It's plain to see: Eddie is a ruthless autocrat and will not ever be told his approach is wrong. Which means he keeps doubling down, dragging good (and less good) players down the rabbit hole with him until eventually he runs out of road. I can only hope that time has finally come, but doubt it.

[Paddington Bear]

Shot clock is long overdue. I've mentioned this before but I often record Prem games to watch later, and skipping through half time, scrums and lineouts setting, injuries and kick delays I can normally do so in under an hour.
Scrums have got really silly on any number of levels as a timewasting, penalty producing monolith. Ready within [x] seconds or its a free kick IMO

[Kawazaki]

Maximum 45 seconds from kicking tee on to taking kick.

Reduce scrum engage protocol to just;

• Touch
  Engage

Lineout: referee stands on the 15m to signal start of lineout, 10 seconds to get the ball in.

[inactionman]

Shot clock is long overdue. I've mentioned this before but I often record Prem games to watch later, and skipping through half time, scrums and lineouts setting, injuries and kick delays I can normally do so in under an hour.
Scrums have got really silly on any number of levels as a timewasting, penalty producing monolith. Ready within [x] seconds or its a free kick IMO

As a complete aside, I'm quite enjoying the repeats on amazon prime, the programme starts pretty much with kickoff and they omit all of halftime.

I realise it's because they've no ads to shill, but it's quite refreshing.

[inactionman]

Maximum 45 seconds from kicking tee on to taking kick.

Reduce scrum engage protocol to just;

• Touch
  Engage

Lineout: referee stands on the 15m to signal start of lineout, 10 seconds to get the ball in.

I'm sold.

Even better, there's a few fatties who might not like losing the chance for a breather, which might encourage losing a bit of timber.

[Margin__Walker]

In more brilliant LI news, Arundell's posted what looks like a post op pic on social media. In hospital with his foot in a cast etc.

No info, but it's clearly fucked and don't expect to see him for a while

[Paddington Bear]

Shot clock is long overdue. I've mentioned this before but I often record Prem games to watch later, and skipping through half time, scrums and lineouts setting, injuries and kick delays I can normally do so in under an hour.
Scrums have got really silly on any number of levels as a timewasting, penalty producing monolith. Ready within [x] seconds or its a free kick IMO

As a complete aside, I'm quite enjoying the repeats on amazon prime, the programme starts pretty much with kickoff and they omit all of halftime.

I realise it's because they've no ads to shill, but it's quite refreshing.

Yes I'm a big fan of their coverage and the coordination of the Autumn matches.

[Slick]

I put it here, although of more general interest - World Rugby looking at a 'shot clock' to get teams to get fingers out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63782112

I still think 60 seconds is too long for a kick, and anything to speed up scrums will be most welcome. The only problem I see with timing scrums is the fact it takes both teams to engage, so might be a bit tricky to apportion blame.

I think they have this is the Top14 and it seems to work OK

They've got it for kicks in league, although I wasn't aware of it being such an issue in league it seems to be pretty straightforward. I think the scrum is going to require more thought - do the top14 time scrums as well, do you know?

Could always impose times for front rows to be ready to engage, I suppose, so if one side is tardy they can be penalised.

Just for kicks I think

[sockwithaticket]

In more brilliant LI news, Arundell's posted what looks like a post op pic on social media. In hospital with his foot in a cast etc.

No info, but it's clearly fucked and don't expect to see him for a while

Poor kid, should've been the season he really cements himself in the Irish line up.

Slight silver lining in that this should keep him out of Eddie's clutches for a bit?

[Kawazaki]

Owen Slot - finally at last!

I have sat through countless press conferences where he has turned the heat on his media inquisitors, where he has persuaded us that of course his understanding of the process is so much deeper than ours and convinced us that his team are on course and that all will be well.

After a while, though, you see through this. Jones hits you with a barrage of persuasive stats but soon you realise that these numbers are inaccurate, sometimes laughably extreme, often just plain wrong. Does he actually make them up? And once you’ve understood that, then you are more likely to challenge the other information that he throws at you.

Honestly, it took us in the rugby media a while to get it, but we’re not fooled any more. Yes, us lot in the media. We must be so much smarter than the panellists on the RFU review because they keep buying it every time.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time ... -hbnm5vkl9

[fishfoodie]

Eddie has a second career ahead of him in standup !

This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”
The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.

https://archive.ph/cybB8

In the real world; England has an utterly predictable attack, that's sloth like, because of the Eddiots selections, which means that even when their opponents are a man down for long periods, there's no threat.

Meanwhile; it's defence is notable by how many penalties it coughs up, & as for the notion that the aerial game is outstanding

England has a fullback who ticks the basic box of being able to field a Garryowen; but apart from that, whenever England kicks from hand, their opponents breath a sign of relief.

[petej]

Eddie has a second career ahead of him in standup !

This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”
The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.

https://archive.ph/cybB8

In the real world; England has an utterly predictable attack, that's sloth like, because of the Eddiots selections, which means that even when their opponents are a man down for long periods, there's no threat.

Meanwhile; it's defence is notable by how many penalties it coughs up, & as for the notion that the aerial game is outstanding

England has a fullback who ticks the basic box of being able to field a Garryowen; but apart from that, whenever England kicks from hand, their opponents breath a sign of relief.

Stewards aerial game was outstanding but seems to be getting worse the more time he spends in the England set up. Eddie the energy vampire slowly draining his players.

[ASMO]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

[GogLais]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

Are he and Pivac off on a jolly somewhere else?