The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

They had to be patient and often looked like they were going nowhere fast, but got there in the end.

It's been noticeable over the last few weeks that Bath's defence is far more resolute than it was earlier in the season.

[geordie_6]

Alex Dombrandt is a big fucker with a lot of pace, an excellent lineout option, great hands, great ability over the ball, and a fantastic try scoring record. He got injured at the wrong time and is now seemingly completely out of the frame despite being the best all-round option England have. He's absolutely box office.


re: Anthony Watson at 15, he's never been good there for England. It just seems to nullify his game completely. At his best, a world class wing, but never a world class fullback. Steward is good and in the right team will be a huge asset as he continues to develop.

When did Dombrandt return from injury? As he didn't come.back, I'd assumed he was still out!

Like 3-4 weeks ago I think.

That's interesting, as for quite some time he seemed nailed on. Remarkable that he didn't at least come back into the squad, even for Eddie...

[sockwithaticket]

Jesus, Dowson sounds like he's going to lock himself in his office with a glass of whiskey and a revolver in his post match interview. Incredibly downbeat and low energy.

Well beaten by Glaws. Rapava-Ruskin making a nonsense ok Mako consistently being selected ahead of him in the autumn and only beaten to Motm by Carreras scoring a boatload of points.

[petej]

Have a bit of an issue with what they are trying to achieve with high tackles. Tigers player correctly sent off far too high a body position but arguably far more in control than the randradra who hit burns high in the 1st half. If the aim is to protect players then not sure the mitigations are correct.

[sockwithaticket]

Have a bit of an issue with what they are trying to achieve with high tackles. Tigers player correctly sent off far too high a body position but arguably far more in control than the randradra who hit burns high in the 1st half. If the aim is to protect players then not sure the mitigations are correct.

Radrada may have been less in control, but he was at lower chest upper midrift height if Burns hadn't gone down to his knees while trying to get rid of the ball. More often than not height is going to be more important than control when it comes to avoiding players getting their clock cleaned.

[petej]

Have a bit of an issue with what they are trying to achieve with high tackles. Tigers player correctly sent off far too high a body position but arguably far more in control than the randradra who hit burns high in the 1st half. If the aim is to protect players then not sure the mitigations are correct.

Radrada may have been less in control, but he was at lower chest upper midrift height if Burns hadn't gone down to his knees while trying to get rid of the ball. More often than not height is going to be more important than control when it comes to avoiding players getting their clock cleaned.

That is not great tackle technique as still pretty high and still lacking control. If the aim is to protect players technique and control should be part of how you assess it. At moment everything is mitigated if the tackled player is dropping.

A fundamental issue is that dominant tackles and tackles near the try line are frequently chest high so if a player drops their height or the tackle rides up you get head contact.

[JM2K6]

Burns dropped his height at the last second. Radradra deservedly got a card and I would advocate for that being red once we've stamped out the current glut of headshots.

The Tigers red was just a fucking cheap shot.

[mos_eisely_]

Eddie's future will be settled on Tuesday, apparently.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ugby-union

What's the betting he'll come out of it with a pay rise.

[JM2K6]

Weird. Geech I can understand but it's fair to say he's not been a relevant force in rugby for decades. Then you have two guys in there who are there purely because they were internationals a very long time ago.

[mos_eisely_]

Yeah it's a strange one for sure. Geech at least understands the modern game, he was Lions coach in 2009 (although it's dawned on me that was 13.5 years ago)

[SaintK]

Jesus, Dowson sounds like he's going to lock himself in his office with a glass of whiskey and a revolver in his post match interview. Incredibly downbeat and low energy.

Well beaten by Glaws. Rapava-Ruskin making a nonsense ok Mako consistently being selected ahead of him in the autumn and only beaten to Motm by Carreras scoring a boatload of points.

Saints really do have a soft underbelly at the moment. They have conceded more tries than any other team in the Prem and are consistently poor in the last quarter of most matches when their defence regularly falls apart.
Think they've flattered to deceive this season and are more likely to be a bottom four team rather than one in the play offs

And yes it's an indictment of Jones that Rapava-Ruskin didn't even get a run on in the AI's whilst Mako continued to get mullered every match he appeared in

Oh and PS: Dan Kelly looked pretty good in the centre on his return to Prem rugby for Tigers

[SaintK]

Weird. Geech I can understand but it's fair to say he's not been a relevant force in rugby for decades. Then you have two guys in there who are there purely because they were internationals a very long time ago.

Listening to him as a pundit and reading some of his columns it would appear McGeechan is somewhat out of touch with current rugby thinking and coaching. Phil de Glanville is on the RFU board and runs an Executive Search company and Jonathan Webb is a surgeon specialising in knee surgery with no day to day involvement with international or club rugby. Other than being ex-internationals (of a past generation) I'm not sure what their qualifications are for being on a the RFU review panel.

[Stranger]

Oh and PS: Dan Kelly looked pretty good in the centre on his return to Prem rugby for Tigers
[/quote]

He is only 21, I am very hopeful he will be the answer for England at 12

[petej]

Weird. Geech I can understand but it's fair to say he's not been a relevant force in rugby for decades. Then you have two guys in there who are there purely because they were internationals a very long time ago.

Listening to him as a pundit and reading some of his columns it would appear McGeechan is somewhat out of touch with current rugby thinking and coaching. Phil de Glanville is on the RFU board and runs an Executive Search company and Jonathan Webb is a surgeon specialising in knee surgery with no day to day involvement with international or club rugby. Other than being ex-internationals (of a past generation) I'm not sure what their qualifications are for being on a the RFU review panel.

You would think they would be looking at guys who played in the professional era.

[mos_eisely_]

Weird. Geech I can understand but it's fair to say he's not been a relevant force in rugby for decades. Then you have two guys in there who are there purely because they were internationals a very long time ago.

Listening to him as a pundit and reading some of his columns it would appear McGeechan is somewhat out of touch with current rugby thinking and coaching. Phil de Glanville is on the RFU board and runs an Executive Search company and Jonathan Webb is a surgeon specialising in knee surgery with no day to day involvement with international or club rugby. Other than being ex-internationals (of a past generation) I'm not sure what their qualifications are for being on a the RFU review panel.

You would think they would be looking at guys who played in the professional era.

Indeed. I'm not sure if this saves Eddie or speeds up his departure!

[Kawazaki]

Interesting article by Mike Brown in the Daily Mail. Fair to say he's not an Eddie Jones fan.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... s-11498697

[Guy Smiley]

The Sydney Morning Herald are saying Jones is gone....

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 5c3j9.html


however, the SMH and Georgina Robinson have been wrong before. Quite a lot... probably too many 'contacts' inside the fetid world of NSW rugby which seems to try and run Australian rugby according to its own Old Boys' guidelines.

Quote in case the paywall blocks you

Spoiler

Show

Eddie Jones will split with the RFU on Monday, his seven-year reign as England coach over just nine months before the World Cup in France.

He will go down in history as the most successful England coach in regards to wins and losses, with a 73 per cent win rate, a World Cup runner’s up medal, two Six Nations titles and one grand slam.

Steve Borthwick, Jones’ former right-hand man and premiership-winning coach of Leicester, is widely expected to replace him, though it is not clear on what terms.

The Englishman was the frontrunner to succeed Jones after the World Cup and interviewed for the role last month, so the RFU might have signed him on a multi-year deal.

It is a seismic shift in the Test landscape and will have major knock-on effects around the world, especially in New Zealand and Australia.

Scott Robertson, the six-time title-winning Crusaders coach with a stated ambition to coach at Test level, is still on the market.

[Brazil]

Listening to him as a pundit and reading some of his columns it would appear McGeechan is somewhat out of touch with current rugby thinking and coaching. Phil de Glanville is on the RFU board and runs an Executive Search company and Jonathan Webb is a surgeon specialising in knee surgery with no day to day involvement with international or club rugby. Other than being ex-internationals (of a past generation) I'm not sure what their qualifications are for being on a the RFU review panel.

You would think they would be looking at guys who played in the professional era.

Indeed. I'm not sure if this saves Eddie or speeds up his departure!

The latter, I suspect. The absence of people who've been involved in the professional game recently suggests it's going to be a process rather than some in depth review of tactics and long term strategy to the world cup.

[inactionman]

Interesting article by Mike Brown in the Daily Mail. Fair to say he's not an Eddie Jones fan.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... s-11498697

Interesting line:

I’ve seen first-hand that if you challe ... y quickly.

I knew Danny Care had a disagreements with Jones, Cips has had disagreements with everyone he's ever worked with, starting with England under Johnson, but Alex Goode is a new on on me.

[Paddington Bear]

Really does sound like he's toast, doesn't it? Anticipating a Glenn Cullen The Thick of It style exit

[JM2K6]

Interesting article by Mike Brown in the Daily Mail. Fair to say he's not an Eddie Jones fan.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... s-11498697

Interesting line:

I’ve seen first-hand that if you challe ... y quickly.

I knew Danny Care had a disagreements with Jones, Cips has had disagreements with everyone he's ever worked with, starting with England under Johnson, but Alex Goode is a new on on me.

Goode has been mentioned before on podcasts.

Must say I'm not thrilled by the idea of Borthwick taking over, his body of work is very thin, Tigers haven't backed up last season's win, and they play a style of rugby at odds with most of the league. But he's clearly a good coach.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, straight into a long term Borthwick deal wouldn't fill me with excitement.

It's the sort of thing you could see not working out. Great job last year with the title, but Leicester have dropped off a fair bit this season and aren't exactly the blueprint for the sort of exciting rugby needed to re-engage fans.

[Kawazaki]

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Borthwick is what England need at all. First and foremost, he's still got Eddie Jones DNA in his system and that just in and of itself is reason enough to look elsewhere. Secondly, it's understanding what Borthwick is like under pressure and in the spotlight and exhibit A are his post-match interviews as England captain after England had plodded to a 9-3 win at Twickenham over Italy or suchlike. He was terrible, no self-awareness or ability to read the room. Thirdly, I just don't think he's ready.

[Paddington Bear]

He captained an exceptionally limited England side and judging a coach by how they were as a player is silly. Likewise 'Eddie Jones DNA' - the England side he was part of coaching were exciting, dynamic and won. Eddie isn't a shit coach, he just should have been sent on his way with a handshake after the world cup.

I think Borthwick may well be helped out either by having a very powerful number 2 or a DoR over the top. Whatever happens he'll be an improvement.

[sockwithaticket]

Tigers current performance dip doesn't fill me with confidence and even in their Prem winning season they felt like a limited team on the edge of their abilities.

Not to Borthwick from me. Want to see a lot more from him as a coach before handing him the national squad.

[Brazil]

What worries me about Borthwick is that his gameplan last season depended heavily on George Ford, who we need at Sale...

I'd trust him to be a much better selector than Jones, who has become exceptionally hidebound in how his teams should look and play.

[Kawazaki]

He captained an exceptionally limited England side and judging a coach by how they were as a player is silly. Likewise 'Eddie Jones DNA' - the England side he was part of coaching were exciting, dynamic and won. Eddie isn't a shit coach, he just should have been sent on his way with a handshake after the world cup.

I think Borthwick may well be helped out either by having a very powerful number 2 or a DoR over the top. Whatever happens he'll be an improvement.

Just about anything would be an improvement on Jones including Borthwick of course. However, I think England need a different leadership philosophy, and I fear Borthwick will just steer a future course that will look very familiar to what we don't like about England under Jones.

[petej]

Tigers current performance dip doesn't fill me with confidence and even in their Prem winning season they felt like a limited team on the edge of their abilities.

Not to Borthwick from me. Want to see a lot more from him as a coach before handing him the national squad.

Missing Genge a lot but the bigger loss is Ford. Tigers won a lot of tight matches on the back of Ford's kicking and game management last year.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, the pair of them are definitely missed. Despite his prem final heroics though, the drop off from Ford to Burns is probably the bigger issue so far this season.

[Raggs]

Not really watched any club rugby for a while, but how's Charlie Atkinson doing?

[Margin__Walker]

Not really watched any club rugby for a while, but how's Charlie Atkinson doing?

Used as a sub at the death mostly. I'd be looking to give him a start at 10 if I were Borthwick.

[petej]

Yeah, the pair of them are definitely missed. Despite his prem final heroics though, the drop off from Ford to Burns is probably the bigger issue so far this season.

Tigers dumped a shitload of cash on Pollard who has managed 1 appearance as a sub. Kelly being out has also been unfortunate.

[SaintK]

So relegation and promotion from and to the Premiership to recommence season 24/25 with a "major relaunch" of the league! Should imagine they will want to get whatever Wasps and Worcester look like back into the Premiership as quickly as possible. The Championship will need to be properly funded if this is going to happen and we have a meaningful second tier

As it stands there is no relegation to the Championship next season, although a team can be promoted to the top-flight if they pass the required standards.
The long-term structure therefore remains up in the air, with the Premiership currently consisting of 11 teams after Wasps' and Worcester's relegation.
Either way, strengthening the second tier to ensure a robust promotion and relegation system in the future is now a priority.
"There is an extreme willingness to have a more aligned second tier, because we think that will help it grow," said Massie-Taylor.

Not sure what they mean by this?

Commitment to the growth plan, with an aim to continue to build the league's fanbase, using experience from cricket competition The Hundred to engage a new audience.

Hmmmm. Reckon it will need more than tinkering around the edges of ther game to achieve it's goal.

As far as commercial growth is concerned, Rob Calder - former commercial director of The Hundred - has joined Premiership Rugby as chief growth officer as the league looks to build its fanbase and start a new chapter in its history.
"He was one of the architects [of The Hundred] and was in the room as they were putting the whole thing together," explained Massie-Taylor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946473

[SaintK]

McGuigan goooooooooooooooooone to Glaws immediately

Gloucester have signed Newcastle Falcons hooker George McGuigan on a "long-term" contract.
The 29-year-old, who has played more than 180 Premiership games for Newcastle and Leicester, was part of England's summer training squad.
He comes in as cover for England hooker Jack Singleton, who suffered a serious leg injury against Northampton in the Premiership earlier this month.
Singleton has had surgery and is set to be out for an extended period.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946057

[Margin__Walker]

The way they are talking, I assume in terms of league structure, we might end up with something like two leagues of 10 with promotion and relegation between, ringfenced from there (or at least some kind of drawbridge to ND1). With the intention (or pipe dream) that the new Championship is more commercially viable. Potentially the 11th place team next season dropping down for the start of 24/25. So something like

Sarries
Bath
Bristol
Saints
Exeter
Quins
Newcastle
Sale
Gloucester
Leicester

London Irish (we'll find a way to get relegated when it matters)
Ealing
Pirates
Doncaster
Wasps (assuming they are resurrected)
Worcester (as above)
Bedford
Coventry
Jersey
Nottingham

Loads of hurdles in place for anything to work though, whatever they do. There's a lack of interest in club rugby hurting the bottom line, which is probably why things like the Hundred are coming up in conversation. There will be P share inequality, you'll be dumping a bunch of Championship teams down a level and any solution will rely on the PRL and RFU working together.

[Brazil]

What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

[fishfoodie]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

[inactionman]

What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

It does seem that way, doesn't it.

Is it better to bodge along or to deal with it - although I'm not sure what I'd say if I were a Wasps fan. There but for the grace of God and Bruce Craig.

We've lost Worcester, Wasps, London Welsh, Richmond in the early days (although I'm not quite sure what went on there) due to financial problems caused to a great part by bad or deluded ownership and little obvious regulation or structure. It's not a new problem, and left untended it'll repeat again.

[Margin__Walker]

What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

I guess that will be them finished then as a pro entity. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wasps at least reappear, as they have a fairly strong brand, albeit there are huge hurdles in terms of location/facilities etc.. I'm not up to speed on how administration works, but I assume most of those debts just disappear under new ownership.

[Paddington Bear]

Two rumours I've heard about Wasps:
1) The only place that's said yes to hosting them is Adams Park
2) Dallaglio is up to his tits in some of Wasps' debts and rights deals (beyond being a Director) and got some very poor advice meaning he hasn't made an agreement with HMRC