Jones gonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not expecting champagne rugby from Borthwick, but I'd expect us to return to using the lineout as a devastating attacking weapon (as we did when he was forwards coach), go with pace out wide and generally play at a higher intensity to what we have recently under Eddie. Not totally dissimilar to what Faz snr has been doing with Ireland and if it is similarly successful then great.

[Glaston]

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Marchant is off to France

[Torquemada 1420]

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Shhhhhhhhh dammit.

[SaintK]

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

[dpedin]

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

Don't disagree with any of the above but the problem will be trying to meld a new team and style of play with so few games before the RWC. However its clear the new coach needs to be brave and make some decisions asap as I can't see England winning the RWC with the likes of Vunipolas, Youngs, etc in the team.

[Niegs]

Here's another for JM's list of Eddie's bollocks. I saw/heard a lot of this from him when he took over, yet was it actually a reality for players?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Here's another for JM's list of Eddie's bollocks. I saw/heard a lot of this from him when he took over, yet was it actually a reality for players?

"It's a very difficult job and the only way to get through it is we all work together as a team. And that means you do everything I say"

- The Italian Job

Eddie talks a good game but doesn't seem to practice what he preaches.

[geordie_6]

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

[SaintK]

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

[Margin__Walker]

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

He's glacial. Need to give the younger generation a chance.

[sockwithaticket]

Plus of course Ben Earl and Rob Lowzowski in the back row and centre

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

[SaintK]

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

[Slick]

Oh god not Rob Lozowski, bogs the centres right down. Plays like a bloke in his 60s...

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

I know Rob pretty well, played alongside him (me at 10, him at 12) when he coached our team back in the day. Top bloke although I owe him an apology…

Edit: and it wasn’t fucking 30 years ago!

[JM2K6]

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on

Marchant is off to France

So are other players in the squad, it doesn't mean anything for the world cup

[geordie_6]

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

Sorry mate, couldn't resist.

[Kawazaki]

He's playing very well for Sarries at the moment as is Daly

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

I know Rob pretty well, played alongside him (me at 10, him at 12) when he coached our team back in the day. Top bloke although I owe him an apology…

Edit: and it wasn’t fucking 30 years ago!

I trained briefly with his centre partner Fran Clough when he finished his playing days at Bedford. Fair to say I don't think I saw him in his prime.

[Chilli]

He's now 13 caps in, almost feels like he's passed the apprentice stage.

True, although I daresay there's still quite a bit he could learn from Ford.

Not the least of which is how to manage being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell...

Absolutely. Ford is a world class tactical kicker. Smith's kicking from hand for cross kicks and territory still need work. And perhaps Smith's style of rugby would remind Ford that he used to be a brilliant gainline player himself.

Any chance of seeing 10 Smith, 12 Ford?

[Slick]

True, although I daresay there's still quite a bit he could learn from Ford.

Not the least of which is how to manage being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell...

Absolutely. Ford is a world class tactical kicker. Smith's kicking from hand for cross kicks and territory still need work. And perhaps Smith's style of rugby would remind Ford that he used to be a brilliant gainline player himself.

Any chance of seeing 10 Smith, 12 Ford?

They should definitely try that out against Scotland

[Line6 HXFX]

James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

[SaintK]

They're poking fun, mate. Alex is the current player, Rob's his dad and hung up his boots about 30 years ago.

Sorry mate, couldn't resist.

no worries. Made that mistake before!

[Brazil]

I think people are doing Borthwick a disservice on how his team will play. Leicester played some fantastic attacking rugby last season, and a lot of their malaise this year can be attributed to the fact that they lost arguably the best ten in the league to Sale. It will be, of course, fucking typical if we now lose him to England for most of the remaining season just as he gets fit again, but that's life. There's still the core of a good team in the squad, and hopefully the England agreement with PRL will allow him to make the necessary changes to it. Probably his biggest decision will be who his starting half backs are, whether he hopes he can get the form out of Captain Fantastic that he's shown at Sarries, whether he sticks by Smith and builds a team around him, or whether he plumps for the guy he knows in Ford. Who he chooses at 9 will be trickier. I'd hope he'd stick by van Poortfliet, at least until Quirke has a) recovered from injury, and b) shown consistent form. I'd also hope he'll give Mitchell more of an opportunity, but suspect it will be Youngs + a tyro until the heat death of the universe.

There's been a lot of comparisons to the Robinson era, but I think the better comparison of Eddie's reign would be Jack Rowell, who dogmatically refused to select the best players on the basis of preconceived ideas of what was needed at international level (which whilst its undoubtedly a tougher environment is overinflated in the minds of a lot of coaches, particularly the poison dwarf), rather than actual ability. Mercifully Neil Back still managed to get a lot of caps. If he can avoid that mindset of overcomplicating things on the basis of the mystical test environment, I think he'll do a good job.

[Hal Jordan]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

[JM2K6]

True, although I daresay there's still quite a bit he could learn from Ford.

Not the least of which is how to manage being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell...

Absolutely. Ford is a world class tactical kicker. Smith's kicking from hand for cross kicks and territory still need work. And perhaps Smith's style of rugby would remind Ford that he used to be a brilliant gainline player himself.

Any chance of seeing 10 Smith, 12 Ford?

More chance of me voting Tory.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

[Paddington Bear]

I think people are doing Borthwick a disservice on how his team will play. Leicester played some fantastic attacking rugby last season, and a lot of their malaise this year can be attributed to the fact that they lost arguably the best ten in the league to Sale. It will be, of course, fucking typical if we now lose him to England for most of the remaining season just as he gets fit again, but that's life. There's still the core of a good team in the squad, and hopefully the England agreement with PRL will allow him to make the necessary changes to it. Probably his biggest decision will be who his starting half backs are, whether he hopes he can get the form out of Captain Fantastic that he's shown at Sarries, whether he sticks by Smith and builds a team around him, or whether he plumps for the guy he knows in Ford. Who he chooses at 9 will be trickier. I'd hope he'd stick by van Poortfliet, at least until Quirke has a) recovered from injury, and b) shown consistent form. I'd also hope he'll give Mitchell more of an opportunity, but suspect it will be Youngs + a tyro until the heat death of the universe.

Agree with this. Worth reminding ourselves just how deadly England were off lineout ball whilst Borthwick was involved in the set up as well.

[Lobby]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

Hask also experienced Eddie's management when everything was working and the team was winning. I bet he's much more or an arsehole when things aren't going his way and the team is losing.

[Slick]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

I agree that Eddie had a really stunning start and that shouldn't be forgotten. But I think even during that there were a lot of us that knew what was coming.

[inactionman]

The sheer level of demand and relentless focus upon conditioning was never going to be sustainable. I understand peaking for a WC, but it was just constant - and so many players got broken on England duty.

[sockwithaticket]

I think people are doing Borthwick a disservice on how his team will play. Leicester played some fantastic attacking rugby last season, and a lot of their malaise this year can be attributed to the fact that they lost arguably the best ten in the league to Sale. It will be, of course, fucking typical if we now lose him to England for most of the remaining season just as he gets fit again, but that's life. There's still the core of a good team in the squad, and hopefully the England agreement with PRL will allow him to make the necessary changes to it. Probably his biggest decision will be who his starting half backs are, whether he hopes he can get the form out of Captain Fantastic that he's shown at Sarries, whether he sticks by Smith and builds a team around him, or whether he plumps for the guy he knows in Ford. Who he chooses at 9 will be trickier. I'd hope he'd stick by van Poortfliet, at least until Quirke has a) recovered from injury, and b) shown consistent form. I'd also hope he'll give Mitchell more of an opportunity, but suspect it will be Youngs + a tyro until the heat death of the universe.

Agree with this. Worth reminding ourselves just how deadly England were off lineout ball whilst Borthwick was involved in the set up as well.

I think we're just protecting ourselves and not daring to hope.

Hask also experienced Eddie's management when everything was working and the team was winning. I bet he's much more or an arsehole when things aren't going his way and the team is losing.

Yup. Injury meant he was pretty much out the door by the time the first blip occurred in 2018. And his couple of visits to camp as a retired player came during good times iirc.

He was also clearly one of Eddie's favourites. For all that he's said Eddie would tell him he was rubbish and would have to retire, he's never told a story of an interaction like the one that seemingly ended Yarde's international career.

[Paddington Bear]

I think people are doing Borthwick a disservice on how his team will play. Leicester played some fantastic attacking rugby last season, and a lot of their malaise this year can be attributed to the fact that they lost arguably the best ten in the league to Sale. It will be, of course, fucking typical if we now lose him to England for most of the remaining season just as he gets fit again, but that's life. There's still the core of a good team in the squad, and hopefully the England agreement with PRL will allow him to make the necessary changes to it. Probably his biggest decision will be who his starting half backs are, whether he hopes he can get the form out of Captain Fantastic that he's shown at Sarries, whether he sticks by Smith and builds a team around him, or whether he plumps for the guy he knows in Ford. Who he chooses at 9 will be trickier. I'd hope he'd stick by van Poortfliet, at least until Quirke has a) recovered from injury, and b) shown consistent form. I'd also hope he'll give Mitchell more of an opportunity, but suspect it will be Youngs + a tyro until the heat death of the universe.

Agree with this. Worth reminding ourselves just how deadly England were off lineout ball whilst Borthwick was involved in the set up as well.

I think we're just protecting ourselves and not daring to hope.

Of course, but given just about anyone could have got more out of this side than Eddie did recently there's plenty of grounds for optimism whoever takes charge, regardless of whether we play total rugby or not

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

I agree that Eddie had a really stunning start and that shouldn't be forgotten. But I think even during that there were a lot of us that knew what was coming.

Including him! He said he should only stay for four years until he got tempted by the cash and going one better.

[JM2K6]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

I agree that Eddie had a really stunning start and that shouldn't be forgotten. But I think even during that there were a lot of us that knew what was coming.

Sort of. After that superb run things went south and everyone was going "see, I told you so!". Then we got the RWC final playing great rugby. Not quite as simple as everyone made out.

[Kawazaki]

The success of the 2019 RWC run hinged on a number of longshots coming in. And they did come in, right up until his lack of contingency planning at 3 and 9 was brutally exposed. In fact, it's difficult to know how more wrong the final could have gone. I've not watched it again or even highlights of it so maybe somebody else can summarise?!

[JM2K6]

The success of the 2019 RWC run hinged on a number of longshots coming in. And they did come in, right up until his lack of contingency planning at 3 and 9 was brutally exposed. In fact, it's difficult to know how more wrong the final could have gone. I've not watched it again or even highlights of it so maybe somebody else can summarise?!

We got lucky with not facing France, though we did batter them last time. Argentina, Australia, NZ were all dismissed in very impressive displays. Australia he changed gameplan for and it paid off big time; NZ was a superbly organised display that made a mockery of them.

The final we had some bad luck with Sinckler but regardless it seems like his planning didn't include SA and our gameplan was set up to fail. However, to answer your question... it could've gone a lot worse. For all SA's dominance they really didn't put the game to bed until late on. It was what, 9-6 at halftime? 18-12 with over an hour gone? It could've been a much bigger disaster.

I think the tight score actually hurt us, though. Changes needed to be made sooner and the scoreboard wasn't providing the same amount of pressure as the display on the pitch. It gave Eddie a reason to stick with his favourites.

[Paddington Bear]

We absolutely should have scored just before half time as well, having had a tonne of pressure in their half. May have been very different if we had.

[Tichtheid]

It should also be noted that South Africa were very, very good. It wasn't just about the pack and the "bomb squad", Mapimpi, de Allende, Am and Kolbe were, for my money, four of the best players in the tournament. That Savvo backline was terrific.

[Niegs]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

This could be a bit in my mind because I'm Team Lancaster, but I once attended a lecture by a sport sci expert who worked (I'm pretty sure) with Team Eddie. He didn't mention names, but he said a few internationals were the type who really didn't want to think for themselves and tap into creativity. They preferred to be told where to stand, what line to run, etc. Again, no idea who is who in that, but I've wondered how much freedom Eddie really allows despite his TedTalks on making himself 'redundant' through player empowerment? I can see Hask being a potential subject described by that sport sci guy though.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

This could be a bit in my mind because I'm Team Lancaster, but I once attended a lecture by a sport sci expert who worked (I'm pretty sure) with Team Eddie. He didn't mention names, but he said a few internationals were the type who really didn't want to think for themselves and tap into creativity. They preferred to be told where to stand, what line to run, etc. Again, no idea who is who in that, but I've wondered how much freedom Eddie really allows despite his TedTalks on making himself 'redundant' through player empowerment? I can see Hask being a potential subject described by that sport sci guy though.

That definitely tallies with stuff Haskell's said in the past about Eddie giving him a clear idea of what he wanted and that he was told to just hit rucks.

[Kawazaki]

Jones is clever at understanding what the zeitgeist is be it rugby tactics or the latest management speak. He can repeat it back to as many people that will listen. None of it makes the slightest difference to how he actually communicates and manages subordinates though.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not surprised Haskell has gone into bat for Jones, he went from a bench/in and out player to a key player in the 2016 team under Jones, getting his best sequence of games at the time.

More interestingly, Danny Care has also had some good words about Jones, crediting him with the greatest moment of his Test career, getting the start against France in the Grand Slam decider.

Yeah in many ways it would be weird if Hask wasn't Team Eddie. Eddie got the absolute best out of him in the swansong of his career. Hask is the kind of man who clearly responds better to the kind of environment Eddie offered than Lancaster (who he clearly has no time for). Eddie's achievements with England shouldn't be disparaged just because of a shite finish either, he was a breath of fresh air through that side.

This could be a bit in my mind because I'm Team Lancaster, but I once attended a lecture by a sport sci expert who worked (I'm pretty sure) with Team Eddie. He didn't mention names, but he said a few internationals were the type who really didn't want to think for themselves and tap into creativity. They preferred to be told where to stand, what line to run, etc. Again, no idea who is who in that, but I've wondered how much freedom Eddie really allows despite his TedTalks on making himself 'redundant' through player empowerment? I can see Hask being a potential subject described by that sport sci guy though.

Definitely the case. Shouldn't be a criticism though - Hask, love him as I do, is clearly a fucking idiot and expecting to get heads up creative rugby out of him was something Lancaster shouldn't have done. Eddie gave him a new lease of life by simplifying the game for him, which was good coaching. Not everyone needs to be a creative genius to win games of rugby and look good doing it. Billy V was the same IMO.