The Sports Science Thread

[Jim Lahey]

First things first, I don't have a fucking clue about sports science, but I'm hoping some of you lot may enlighten me.

I'm watching a replay of the College Football game last night. One of Georgia's receivers looks like he was passed an oxygen mask after he scored a touchdown (he didn't take it). I assume this was to help him recover after sprinting 40 or 50 yards. The commentators then talked about how fecked his knee was prior to the game and were talking about all the painkillers he was on.

What are the rules in terms of recovery? Can athletes use whatever substances/methods they want, provided they aren't specifically outlawed? And if so, what role do ethics play in sports these days (if at all)?

Does this type of shit happen regularly in rugby? And what kind of "legal" PEDs are modern rugby players using?

[Niegs]

I imagine US college football players are HEAVILY under the microscope over what they take. Some will sneak around or play the game and win, I imagine, but I can tell you that even Canadian university athletes are subject to random drug testing and we take a lot of cues from the NCAA.

Policies: https://www.goxgo.ca/student_athlete/doping_control

[Biffer]

There are painkillers which aren’t considered PEDs. I remember a number of years ago seeing a player get an injection on the pitch, but I can’t remember if it was football or rugby.

American football has had problems with players training and playing on a shit to of painkillers. For example -

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bret ... -two-days/

[Fonz]

There are painkillers which aren’t considered PEDs. I remember a number of years ago seeing a player get an injection on the pitch, but I can’t remember if it was football or rugby.

American football has had problems with players training and playing on a shit to of painkillers. For example -

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bret ... -two-days/

It’s just endemic to the culture. A guy on my high school rugby team (also a football player) used to take 8 Advils before every practice, and AFAIK he didn’t even have some sort of lingering injury/pain or anything, it was just as a matter of course.

Americans generally think everything can be solved with a pill.

[clydecloggie]

Anything that's not on the PED list is fair game, is pretty much the culture in all elite sports, not just American football.

In cycling, World Tour teams are openly boasting about stuff they use to enhance training recovery and shift physical limits, because said stuff is not on the WADA lists.

Pain killing injections are still fairly common in rugby and (our type of) football, if the game is deemed important enough. Needless to say it's a fairly bad idea but priorities shift when it comes to elite sport.

[inactionman]

Anything that's not on the PED list is fair game, is pretty much the culture in all elite sports, not just American football.

In cycling, World Tour teams are openly boasting about stuff they use to enhance training recovery and shift physical limits, because said stuff is not on the WADA lists.

Pain killing injections are still fairly common in rugby and (our type of) football, if the game is deemed important enough. Needless to say it's a fairly bad idea but priorities shift when it comes to elite sport.

Yep. Cortisone injection is a common anti-inflammatory and very effective painkilling treatment, so it's frequently used to help players play through injury, mostly form a pain perspective - which is indeed a very Bad Idea, as the pain is supposed to tell you that something is wrong and to stop. Many football players refuse to take them for that reason, but they're not banned.

[clydecloggie]

Anything that's not on the PED list is fair game, is pretty much the culture in all elite sports, not just American football.

In cycling, World Tour teams are openly boasting about stuff they use to enhance training recovery and shift physical limits, because said stuff is not on the WADA lists.

Pain killing injections are still fairly common in rugby and (our type of) football, if the game is deemed important enough. Needless to say it's a fairly bad idea but priorities shift when it comes to elite sport.

Yep. Cortisone injection is a common anti-inflammatory and very effective painkilling treatment, so it's frequently used to help players play through injury - which is indeed a very Bad Idea. Many football players refuse to take them for that reason, but they're not banned.

There are some lovely gruesome videos of athletes (including football and rugby players) spectacularly blowing up their Achilles tendons while sprinting. I would bet a fair few Euros they had received cortisone injections in that tendon previously.

[Jim Lahey]

How does a drug/treatment get banned?

If everyone is doing something, and all of the sports club owners have a vested interest in continuing with something that allows players to continue in the short term, but fuck them in the long term, at what point does a doping agency weigh in and override the clubs/players' self interests?

I can see arguments for both camps.

[Sandstorm]

Anything that's not on the PED list is fair game, is pretty much the culture in all elite sports, not just American football.

In cycling, World Tour teams are openly boasting about stuff they use to enhance training recovery and shift physical limits, because said stuff is not on the WADA lists.

Pain killing injections are still fairly common in rugby and (our type of) football, if the game is deemed important enough. Needless to say it's a fairly bad idea but priorities shift when it comes to elite sport.

Yep. Cortisone injection is a common anti-inflammatory and very effective painkilling treatment, so it's frequently used to help players play through injury, mostly form a pain perspective - which is indeed a very Bad Idea, as the pain is supposed to tell you that something is wrong and to stop. Many football players refuse to take them for that reason, but they're not banned.

McAwe must have run almost exclusively on painkillers the last couple of seasons he played.

[PornDog]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

[inactionman]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

I remember that. Almost as daft as Robbie Fowler's nose plaster thing

[Jim Lahey]

Given how much of a legend Viera was, I'm amazed it didn't catch on!

[dpedin]

Many footballers and rugby players take tons of painkillers, some everyday, in order to train and play. Even if not banned many, if not all painkillers such as aspirin, paracetamol and ibuprofen, can be dangerous and/or addictive, physically or mentally, if taken regularly for a long period ie months. Also overuse of these painkillers limit their effectiveness as the body becomes used to them so to get the same effect then dosage continually needs to be continually increased. Side effects will vary but can lead to chronic health issues particularly as dosage is increased beyond the recommended levels.

Hopefully these days most pro sport people are under close medical supervision and only use painkillers, over the counter or prescription, in extremis or under careful supervision by a medic.

I had a serious case of septic arthritis in my left knee about 3-4 years ago. Initially post op I was on Oxycontin which is a seriously dangerous painkiller and I managed to get off that 6-8 weeks. That had pretty serious withdrawal issues. My doc then prescribed tramadol for me but only to be used in order to enable me to do the physio rehab post op. Without it my recovery would have been a lot slower and far more painful. However I was only to take it prophylactically ie before exercise, and we agreed a withdrawal plan at the start. Once it stopped I used ibuprofen and again wound these down as pain reduced and mobility improved. It was a painful journey but all the medics and physios were clear that dependancy on painkillers was a big no no and to be avoided at all costs. They were right! Im back playing golf and in the gym.

PS I believe Tramadol is to be banned by WADA soon, if it hasn't already.

[Niegs]

Recently, when everyone was wondering why people were going mad for that PRIME drink, someone another forum shared this youtuber's take on it. I took a bit of a dive into his other videos, criticising how young people are being steered onto all kinds of unhealthy practices to get ripped by social media. If I were medical / S&C at a pro club - or, worse, working with teens who want to 'make it' to the big leagues - I'd be very worried about this trend and the ease at which they're getting gear online.

https://www.youtube.com/@shreddedsportsscience

[C69]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on this unless I see the proof.
It is an urban myth

[PornDog]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on this unless I see the proof.
It is an urban myth

Only if he created the myth himself - its in his book.

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -

McGrath was in the twilight of his career and had been unable to train for club or country for around four years, due to horrendous injury problems with his knees. McGrath took a cortisone injection in each knee before almost every match.

from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

[dpedin]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on this unless I see the proof.
It is an urban myth

Only if he created the myth himself - its in his book.

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -

McGrath was in the twilight of his career and had been unable to train for club or country for around four years, due to horrendous injury problems with his knees. McGrath took a cortisone injection in each knee before almost every match.

from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

For some reason I had thought 2 maybe 3 at push was the most that a reliable and competent doctor would inject into any joint/limb? I've probably got that wrong but multiple infections can't be doing any good at all.

[C69]

Paul McGrath used to have to take a cortisone injection in his knee before every game. Considering the fact that he couldn't have performed without it, it most definitely was performance enhancing.

Now he was overcoming a long term and persistent injury (he couldn't even train) rather than a fully fit player gaining an advantage over other fully fit players, but it still raises some ethical questions.

Patrick Viera lathering the Vicks onto his shirt was another odd one. I suspect any real advantage came from accidentally getting some of it into an opponents eye rather than any breathing assistance, but it was just a weird 'thing' there for a while.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on this unless I see the proof.
It is an urban myth

Only if he created the myth himself - its in his book.

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -

McGrath was in the twilight of his career and had been unable to train for club or country for around four years, due to horrendous injury problems with his knees. McGrath took a cortisone injection in each knee before almost every match.

from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

Hyperbole to say every game.
Does it say how many?

[Sandstorm]

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -

McGrath was in the twilight of his career and had been unable to train for club or country for around four years, due to horrendous injury problems with his knees. McGrath took a cortisone injection in each knee before almost every match.

from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

Hyperbole to say every game.
Does it say how many?

A pro footballer can't train for 4 years, just turns up on Saturday and plays? C'mooooonnnnn...........

[dpedin]

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on this unless I see the proof.
It is an urban myth

Only if he created the myth himself - its in his book.

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -

McGrath was in the twilight of his career and had been unable to train for club or country for around four years, due to horrendous injury problems with his knees. McGrath took a cortisone injection in each knee before almost every match.

from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

For some reason I had thought 2 maybe 3 at push was the most that a reliable and competent doctor would inject into any joint/limb? I've probably got that wrong but multiple infections can't be doing any good at all.

Just checked - NHS and college advice is that up to a max of 4 cortisone injections into a joint per year is the maximum advised with very few exemptions. I would be surprised if a medic would exceed that limit in order to get a footballer onto a pitch whilst knowing this would create long term health risks! However cortisone is often mixed with local anaesthetic when injected into joints to provide more immediate pain relief so I suspect that a local might have been the usual injections he received with cortisone added every so often to provide more sustainable relief. They would probably have looked the same and to be honest McGrath was probably so pissed/hung over he wouldn't have asked any questions! However this would also be a very harmful course of action and the medic should have been shot!

[PornDog]

Only if he created the myth himself - its in his book.

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -


from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

For some reason I had thought 2 maybe 3 at push was the most that a reliable and competent doctor would inject into any joint/limb? I've probably got that wrong but multiple infections can't be doing any good at all.

Just checked - NHS and college advice is that up to a max of 4 cortisone injections into a joint per year is the maximum advised with very few exemptions. I would be surprised if a medic would exceed that limit in order to get a footballer onto a pitch whilst knowing this would create long term health risks! However cortisone is often mixed with local anaesthetic when injected into joints to provide more immediate pain relief so I suspect that a local might have been the usual injections he received with cortisone added every so often to provide more sustainable relief. They would probably have looked the same and to be honest McGrath was probably so pissed/hung over he wouldn't have asked any questions! However this would also be a very harmful course of action and the medic should have been shot!

As well as being pissed/hung over/disinterested, this was also the early to mid 90's - the ethics of sports medicine was a much lower bar then*, so it could have just been a "Yes Paul its cortisone, now sit down and shut up". So certainly it could have been different things on different days, with locals and anti inflamms making up part of the routine. Whether it was always cortisone or not I guess is up for debate, but he was certainly getting "shots" before almost every game.

* In Tony Cascarino's book, he talks about Bernard Tapie at Marseille and they guys just getting "mystery" vitamin shots into their lower back.

[PornDog]

Can't find an actual excerpt, but this fella reviewing the book references it -


from https://bleacherreport.com/articles/60008

Hyperbole to say every game.
Does it say how many?

A pro footballer can't train for 4 years, just turns up on Saturday and plays? C'mooooonnnnn...........

Not a pro footballer - Paul McGrath. Totally different level.

[Jim Lahey]

Do only the best players get the best/most frequent doses of painkillers? Or would all players be afforded the same treatment?

Eg. Would an honest, hard working, yet moderately talented blindside/2nd row playing in the GP get the same gear as a "superstar" player like Tuilagi or Marcus Smith if they were at the same club (I'm not implying either of these 2 players are regular users of gear btw)?

I'd imagine all these drugs/shots must rack up in terms of cost if they are needing them before most sessions.

[inactionman]

Do only the best players get the best/most frequent doses of painkillers? Or would all players be afforded the same treatment?

Eg. Would an honest, hard working, yet moderately talented blindside/2nd row playing in the GP get the same gear as a "superstar" player like Tuilagi or Marcus Smith (I'm not implying either of these 2 players are regular users of gear btw)?

I'd imagine all these drugs/shots must rack up in terms of cost if they are needing them before most sessions.

I'd worry about self-diagnosis at lower levels, and the misuse of available medication.

I had a bit of back surgery and was on tramadol and cocodamol (as an aside I slept like a baby on cocodamol due to the codeine but the tramadol gave me weird dreams). I could get emergency issues of these if there were any flare-ups - it wouldn't have been to hard to cod on about my back and pick up some pretty strong medication for other ailments, if so inclined. And that's just through the NHS, god alone knows what you could buy off the internet or the dodgy bloke at the gym.

[GogLais]

I was amazed to see a player swallowing a pill on pitch sometime last season. Quite a few here seemed to think it was normal but I’d never noticed it before.

[clydecloggie]

Do only the best players get the best/most frequent doses of painkillers? Or would all players be afforded the same treatment?

Eg. Would an honest, hard working, yet moderately talented blindside/2nd row playing in the GP get the same gear as a "superstar" player like Tuilagi or Marcus Smith if they were at the same club (I'm not implying either of these 2 players are regular users of gear btw)?

I'd imagine all these drugs/shots must rack up in terms of cost if they are needing them before most sessions.

Those things cost peanuts, which is part of the problem.

[SaintK]

I was amazed to see a player swallowing a pill on pitch sometime last season. Quite a few here seemed to think it was normal but I’d never noticed it before.

I've noticed that once or twice before. Just assumed it was a painkiller or anti-inflammatory

[Sandstorm]

I was amazed to see a player swallowing a pill on pitch sometime last season. Quite a few here seemed to think it was normal but I’d never noticed it before.

I've noticed that once or twice before. Just assumed it was a painkiller or anti-inflammatory

Sees mad to not wait until halftime as the pills take at least 30 mins to work. 2nd half it's pointless.

[Sandstorm]

I was amazed to see a player swallowing a pill on pitch sometime last season. Quite a few here seemed to think it was normal but I’d never noticed it before.

I've noticed that once or twice before. Just assumed it was a painkiller or anti-inflammatory

Can see why player would not wait until halftime as the pills take at least 30 mins to work. 2nd half it's pointless.

[Sandstorm]

I've noticed that once or twice before. Just assumed it was a painkiller or anti-inflammatory

Can see why player would not wait until halftime as the pills take at least 30 mins to work. 2nd half it's pointless.

[mat the expat]

Yep. Cortisone injection is a common anti-inflammatory and very effective painkilling treatment, so it's frequently used to help players play through injury - which is indeed a very Bad Idea. Many football players refuse to take them for that reason, but they're not banned.

"Civilians" are usually barred from more than a couple at each site

My ankle tendons are ratshit and 3 was the max in one before surgery

Cortisone does horrible things to the bodies of ex-players who abuse it as well