Stop voting for fucking Tories

Where goats go to escape
C T
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tabascoboy wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:33 pm
C T wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:03 pm
dpedin wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:39 am

Especially when he employed lawyers to threaten journalists who were asking questions about his tax affairs. I believe his lawyers were chastised by their professional body for threatening the journalist to not disclose the contents of their letters when in fact they had no right to do so? Hardly a careless error when he has tax and legal experts working for him and threatening journalists with legal action, etc. He is an entitled twat who has been deliberately avoiding paying UK tax hence the 30% HMRC surcharge, and particularly when negotiating with HMRC when he was their actual boss as Chancellor. He has to go!

Now what about Boris, the £800k undisclosed loan and the appointment of the BBC Chairman who helped facilitate the loan guarantee? Smelly or what?
It is really quite amazing how these careless, genuine errors never seem to result in more tax being paid.
Reminds me I need to check out my bank and building society accounts, you never know when due to an honest mistake, £27m has been "mysteriously" credited to one of your accounts
Good point, I must remember to check mine later on too.

The thing that I can never get my head around with these things is how much money is left after paying the appropriate amount of tax. Sure, 4 million pound of tax is eye watering. Ouch. But still leaves him with 23 million... 23 million. Just pay the pissing tax you greedy prick.
C T
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fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:57 pm
C T wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:03 pm
dpedin wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:39 am

Especially when he employed lawyers to threaten journalists who were asking questions about his tax affairs. I believe his lawyers were chastised by their professional body for threatening the journalist to not disclose the contents of their letters when in fact they had no right to do so? Hardly a careless error when he has tax and legal experts working for him and threatening journalists with legal action, etc. He is an entitled twat who has been deliberately avoiding paying UK tax hence the 30% HMRC surcharge, and particularly when negotiating with HMRC when he was their actual boss as Chancellor. He has to go!

Now what about Boris, the £800k undisclosed loan and the appointment of the BBC Chairman who helped facilitate the loan guarantee? Smelly or what?
It is really quite amazing how these careless, genuine errors never seem to result in more tax being paid.
Don't worry; I'm sure he'll now be sueing his tax experts for the damage they have caused to his reputation, by conveniently saving him millions of pounds in taxes, on an offshore structure they had no hand, act or part in setting up :roll:
He has been through quite the ordeal, poor wee lamb. I hope those tax experts get what's coming to them after forcing him to do such things.
Slick
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Interesting piece by the gut that first noticed all this
I never set out to investigate Nadhim Zahawi. I’d retired as the lucratively paid head of tax at a City law firm and founded a think tank, Tax Policy Associates. I’d then happily written a series of papers and reports that probably 20 people had read (but, I assured myself, the right 20 people). More importantly, I was, per the original plan, spending much more time with my family.

To the extent I thought about Zahawi at all, I thought him an impressive figure. He had arrived in the UK from Iraq as a child refugee, built a billion-dollar company from nothing and was now, aged 55, worth £100 million. He had been a highly competent vaccines minister — very possibly saving thousands of lives — and now, as of July 5 last year, he was chancellor of the exchequer. I vaguely remembered he’d written about tax avoidance in the past. In 2015, he tweeted: “Labour didn’t deal with tax avoidance for 13 years in government! We have introduced new tax avoidance laws just this month.”

But then I read an extraordinary report in The Independent newspaper that Zahawi had been the subject of an investigation by the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and HM Revenue & Customs. Zahawi denied this — but would he necessarily know if he were being investigated?

Then other newspapers reported that before Zahawi’s appointment as chancellor, the Cabinet Office had raised a “red flag” about his tax affairs. This was not denied by the Cabinet Office.

Today Zahawi finally made a public statement, claiming he had merely made a “careless and not deliberate error”. He refused to put any figures on how much he had paid back, even though reports suggest it is £5 million.

But in any event, he would never have said a word and the public would be none the wiser about his tax had I not started digging into it last July. A Guardian article from 2017 said Zahawi was linked to a Gibraltar company called Balshore Investments, which held shares in YouGov — the all-conquering international polling firm Zahawi founded in 2000 with Stephan Shakespeare, now 65, a one-time teacher and former hopeful for a Conservative seat. I spent a thoroughly entertaining few days going through company accounts and Companies House filings, and made four interesting discoveries.

First, a filing error in a Companies House entry for an unrelated company revealed that Balshore was owned by a trust controlled by Zahawi’s parents.

Second, Balshore Investments didn’t hold just any old shares in YouGov. It held the founder shares, which normally Zahawi would have received himself. Legally there is nothing necessarily different about founder shares, but founders pay little or nothing for them because they’ve put in the “sweat equity” of establishing the company. So if you founded a company, you might reasonably take, say, 80 per cent of the shares. You need cash, so you find a friend who pays £1 million to subscribe for the other 20 per cent. You have founder shares; they don’t. Shakespeare held his founder shares in the usual way, and there is no suggestion he has done anything wrong.

This seemed odd. I spoke to lawyers and entrepreneurs who had seen hundreds of startups, and nobody could explain this arrangement.


Third, a chance disclosure in YouGov’s 2005 listing documents revealed that Balshore had made a £99,000 gift to Zahawi out of its YouGov dividends — direct evidence he benefited from the trust.

Fourth, because Balshore was based in Gibraltar, about £24 million of gains on its YouGov shares, plus dividends, went completely untaxed. By an extraordinary coincidence, at about that time Zahawi’s UK property business had received £26 million of unsecured loans from an undisclosed source.


For me, there was a potential explanation: Zahawi didn’t want to be taxed on profits on the YouGov shares, so he put them in the company owned by his parents’ trust. But he still regarded them as his assets, and so cash came back to him through gifts and loans. There are half-a-dozen tax rules designed to stop this sort of thing. And, if my theory were correct, one of them would apply to tax the dividends and capital gains. I reckoned about £3.7 million in tax should have been paid — but hadn’t.

Accusing the chancellor of the exchequer of avoiding tax was a daunting step. I spoke to many tax experts: accountants, solicitors, KCs and retired HMRC inspectors. Everyone agreed the arrangements were suspicious.


I published my findings on the Tax Policy Associates website on July 10, posted a thread on Twitter . . . and Twitter exploded. Zahawi denied everything. He said he hadn’t avoided tax and he had an explanation for Balshore holding the YouGov shares — he said his father had provided start-up capital and the shares were fair reward for that.

I spent more fun time going through all the documents and accounts, and concluded it wasn’t true. Neil Copp, an investor, provided £285,000 of start-up capital (there is no suggestion of wrongdoing by Copp). Balshore provided £7,000 — and that was two years later. So it wasn’t start-up capital at all.

I published these latest findings on July 13. Maybe Zahawi had made an innocent mistake — it was 22 years ago, after all — and a correction would be issued soon enough. Instead, the next day, he offered a new explanation: that he had been so inexperienced back then that he was completely dependent on his father’s “very significant contribution” to developing YouGov’s business plan, and that his father had provided ideas, business support and knowhow.

It’s hard to come by information on Nadhim Zahawi’s father, Hareth. Zahawi has mentioned Hareth “losing everything” to a failed investment when Zahawi was 18. Today, Hareth runs an Iraqi infrastructure business called Iraq Project & Business Development. He is said to live in Lebanon, and a number of journalists tried to find him in July to ask about Balshore. None was able to track him down.

Zahawi’s new explanation contradicted much of the public information about the history of YouGov, of which Zahawi was chief executive until 2010 (he now holds no role with the company). The Times approached YouGov and spoke to people who had been there at the start. Nobody recalled his father’s involvement, and YouGov issued a clear public denial of Hareth Zahawi’s involvement in the company. Nadhim Zahawi was able to find two former colleagues who said they recalled his father being kind and helpful — but that hardly justified taking all the founder shares.

I posted my view on the matter online: that Zahawi’s claim his father had provided start-up capital was wrong.

Saturday, July 16 was a particularly gorgeous summer’s day. I was watching my children swimming in a Norfolk lake when my phone buzzed. It was a Twitter direct message from a libel partner at Osborne Clarke, a law firm I’d heard was acting for Zahawi. He wanted to speak “off the record”. I told him he should put anything he had to say in writing — and that I would not accept “without prejudice” correspondence (which wouldn’t normally be permitted to be published).


So I was surprised to receive an email later that day from Osborne Clarke headed “without prejudice”. It demanded I retract my allegation of “dishonesty” that same day and said I couldn’t publish the email without “serious consequences”. It wasn’t a brilliantly constructed letter, and they either misunderstood or mis-stated what I’d said about Zahawi.

This just made me more confident I was on the right track. I did not retract. Instead, I posted another detailed explanation online of why I thought Zahawi was wrong. Osborne Clarke sent another email — again claiming to be confidential, and saying that publishing it would be improper.

I’d had enough. On July 22, I published both “confidential” emails and alerted the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) to the fact that lawyers were sending secret libel letters. Saying that your libel threat is confidential and can’t be published is usually untrue — and the SRA agreed. On November 29, it sent out a general note warning solicitors to stop sending libel letters that falsely claim to be confidential. I referred Osborne Clarke to the SRA over its letters.

But all that was a diversion. I started looking back at other things Zahawi had said. On Sky News on July 11, the presenter Kay Burley asked him if he benefited from an offshore trust. “I don’t benefit from an offshore trust,” he said. “Nor does my wife. We don’t benefit at all from that.”

How could he say this, when there was evidence from YouGov itself that, on at least one occasion, he received £99,000 from the trust?

On September 12, I wrote to Zahawi’s lawyers again to ask if they now had any comment. They replied the next day: “You should not infer anything from our client’s desire not to engage with you, including to correct any misrepresentations you have made. Our client’s taxes are fully declared and paid in the UK and any allegation of tax evasion would be false and seriously defamatory.”

Despite all this, to my frustration, things began to go quiet. I’d made a series of quite technical accusations, which Zahawi had denied. His lawyers had written to newspapers. It was not an easy story for the media to cover — though The Sunday Times did run an interview with me in December. Zahawi’s strategy of saying nothing appeared to have triumphed. Until last Sunday, January 15, 2023.


The Sun on Sunday had a scoop: it reported that Zahawi had paid “several million pounds” to settle a dispute with HMRC, with the suggestion that the dispute centred on YouGov.

The newspaper carried a faintly hilarious non-denial denial from Zahawi’s spokesman stating that Zahawi had “never had to instruct any lawyers to deal with HMRC on his behalf”. This read to me like a tacit admission that the story was true but that Zahawi had instructed an accounting firm to do the work rather than lawyers. Other journalists followed up the story, pushing Zahawi’s people for comment — with no reply.

When asked about this by Labour MP Alex Sobel at prime minister’s questions on Wednesday, Rishi Sunak said his “honourable friend” had already addressed the matter in full, and there was nothing more Sunak could add.

I think the most likely scenario is that Zahawi panicked after I published my first findings about YouGov last July and went to HMRC to reach a speedy settlement to make the whole thing go away. Reports suggest the settlement was more than £3.7 million of tax — the same figure I identified back in July — then interest and 30 per cent penalties. That level of penalties is consistent with him having “failed to take reasonable care” — an astonishing way for an experienced businessman and senior politician to behave after receiving, by my reckoning, £27 million.

Four key considerations remain.

Zahawi said nothing unusual went on with YouGov and no tax was avoided. That seems impossible to reconcile with the terms of the settlement being reported.

He maintained for months that all his taxes are properly declared and paid in the UK. He told Newsnight on Wednesday that his taxes “were and are fully up to date”. But nobody pays millions in tax to settle a dispute with HMRC when their taxes are “properly declared and paid”.

The timings make it possible Zahawi may have started negotiating a settlement with HMRC while he was chancellor, from July 5 to September 6 last year. If that were the case, it’s harder to imagine a worse conflict of interest.

And — most important of all — public confidence in the tax system is shredded if people have the perception that there’s one rule for ministers and another for the rest of us. Ministers shouldn’t avoid tax. They shouldn’t dodge questions about their tax affairs — and the certainly shouldn’t set lawyers on the people raising the questions.

So no more dodging questions, please, Nadhim. No more libel threats. Time to apologise
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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JM2K6
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Yeah, that's excellent. Very clear indeed.
I like neeps
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Tax fraud should result in heavy prison sentences, only then will it stop.
Slick
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:29 am Yeah, that's excellent. Very clear indeed.
Yes. if this is the case, it's utterly outrageous
The timings make it possible Zahawi may have started negotiating a settlement with HMRC while he was chancellor, from July 5 to September 6 last year. If that were the case, it’s harder to imagine a worse conflict of interest.
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JM2K6
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Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:46 am
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:29 am Yeah, that's excellent. Very clear indeed.
Yes. if this is the case, it's utterly outrageous
The timings make it possible Zahawi may have started negotiating a settlement with HMRC while he was chancellor, from July 5 to September 6 last year. If that were the case, it’s harder to imagine a worse conflict of interest.
Indeed - it does seem the most likely scenario.

The levels of malfeasance in office with this mob are genuinely absurd and I don't think the opposition have it in them to stop the rot, let alone excise it. Sure, they should get into power at the next election but at this point I want a Labour party that is going hell for leather on fixing the rotten heart of government and ensuring that all the codes of practice that have been run roughshod over are revisited, strengthened, and enforced - no matter who's in power. But then that'd require Starmer and co to do something other than just beat the drum that the Tories aren't enacting their own policies properly so Labour will do them better(!)
Dinsdale Piranha
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:49 am
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:46 am
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:29 am Yeah, that's excellent. Very clear indeed.
Yes. if this is the case, it's utterly outrageous
The timings make it possible Zahawi may have started negotiating a settlement with HMRC while he was chancellor, from July 5 to September 6 last year. If that were the case, it’s harder to imagine a worse conflict of interest.
Indeed - it does seem the most likely scenario.

The levels of malfeasance in office with this mob are genuinely absurd and I don't think the opposition have it in them to stop the rot, let alone excise it. Sure, they should get into power at the next election but at this point I want a Labour party that is going hell for leather on fixing the rotten heart of government and ensuring that all the codes of practice that have been run roughshod over are revisited, strengthened, and enforced - no matter who's in power. But then that'd require Starmer and co to do something other than just beat the drum that the Tories aren't enacting their own policies properly so Labour will do them better(!)
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
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Paddington Bear
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Hard to understand why Sunak hasn't sacked him already
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tabascoboy
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Well a few days after stating to the House in PMQ that Zahawi "had addressed the matter in full






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Slick
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Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:49 am
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:46 am

Yes. if this is the case, it's utterly outrageous

Indeed - it does seem the most likely scenario.

The levels of malfeasance in office with this mob are genuinely absurd and I don't think the opposition have it in them to stop the rot, let alone excise it. Sure, they should get into power at the next election but at this point I want a Labour party that is going hell for leather on fixing the rotten heart of government and ensuring that all the codes of practice that have been run roughshod over are revisited, strengthened, and enforced - no matter who's in power. But then that'd require Starmer and co to do something other than just beat the drum that the Tories aren't enacting their own policies properly so Labour will do them better(!)
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
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tabascoboy
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Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:33 pm Hard to understand why Sunak hasn't sacked him already
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Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm
Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:49 am

Indeed - it does seem the most likely scenario.

The levels of malfeasance in office with this mob are genuinely absurd and I don't think the opposition have it in them to stop the rot, let alone excise it. Sure, they should get into power at the next election but at this point I want a Labour party that is going hell for leather on fixing the rotten heart of government and ensuring that all the codes of practice that have been run roughshod over are revisited, strengthened, and enforced - no matter who's in power. But then that'd require Starmer and co to do something other than just beat the drum that the Tories aren't enacting their own policies properly so Labour will do them better(!)
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
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C69
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Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm
Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:49 am

Indeed - it does seem the most likely scenario.

The levels of malfeasance in office with this mob are genuinely absurd and I don't think the opposition have it in them to stop the rot, let alone excise it. Sure, they should get into power at the next election but at this point I want a Labour party that is going hell for leather on fixing the rotten heart of government and ensuring that all the codes of practice that have been run roughshod over are revisited, strengthened, and enforced - no matter who's in power. But then that'd require Starmer and co to do something other than just beat the drum that the Tories aren't enacting their own policies properly so Labour will do them better(!)
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
What battles is he having?
He seems to have purged his party of any serious dissent, whilst the Tories are at war with each other on multiple fronts.
Biffer
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:40 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm
Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
If he has five years of competence and the Tories eat each other alive, both of which are likely, he might end up with a second term, particularly if the first one is a huge landslide. But the consequences of leaving the EU will really be chewing the country up by that time, so that will have a big impact on elections.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:51 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:40 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm

I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
If he has five years of competence and the Tories eat each other alive, both of which are likely, he might end up with a second term, particularly if the first one is a huge landslide. But the consequences of leaving the EU will really be chewing the country up by that time, so that will have a big impact on elections.
The Tories are incompetent because firstly their current flagship policy Brexit is a disaster economically, secondly their last flagship policy Austerity was a disaster economically. And now public services don't have enough funding, tax rates on income are high so you can't raise them so have to go for your voters wallets which they won't do so they're f*cked.

So Keir Starmer is either going to have to go after the asset owners or corporations to raise the cash needed for public services. He isn't saying anything about that (not that you can believe what he says anyway) but is basically we'll be better at spending not enough money than the conservatives because there's no money to spend. So if he won't diagnose the problem how is he going to fix it?

Fixing the NHS requires vast sums of money for social care, that's before you get to frontline staff. And a massive billion pound organisation needs administrators and managers. All of whom Starmer is in favour reforming out.

In trying to look tough to the union he just looks like a conservative. It's no surprise he's trying to hugely increase funding from private enterprise and high net worth individuals. Because the members and union cash is leaving. And what about when they start to ask him for what he paid for? The Labour party doesn't stand up for labour, doesn't stand for anything except power and even that what's he going to do with it?. He's going be a dreadful PM.
Last edited by I like neeps on Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Biffer
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:21 pm
Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:51 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:40 pm

Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
If he has five years of competence and the Tories eat each other alive, both of which are likely, he might end up with a second term, particularly if the first one is a huge landslide. But the consequences of leaving the EU will really be chewing the country up by that time, so that will have a big impact on elections.
The Tories are incompetent because firstly their current flagship policy Brexit is a disaster economically, secondly their last flagship policy Austerity was a disaster economically. And now public services don't have enough funding, tax rates on income are high so you can't raise them so have to go for your voters wallets which they won't do so they're f*cked.

So Keir Starmer is either going to have to go after the asset owners or corporations to raise the cash needed for public services. He isn't saying anything about that (not that you can believe what he says anyway) but is basically we'll be better at spending not enough money than the conservatives because there's no money to spend. So if he won't diagnose the problem how is he going to fix it?

Fixing the NHS requires vast sums of money for social care, that's before you get to frontline staff. And a massive billion pound organisation needs administrators and managers. All of whom Starmer is reforming out.

In trying to look tough to the union he just looks like a conservative. It's no surprise he's trying to hugely increase funding from private enterprise and high net worth individuals. Because the members and union cash is leaving. And what about when they start to ask him for what he paid for? He's going be a dreadful PM.
I'm not really disagreeing with that, but the bar for looking competent has now been set incredibly low.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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fishfoodie
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:40 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm
Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
The baffling bit to me is how we have arrived at a position that a minister caught evading tax - I'll call it evading as it's obviously deliberate - doesn't result in his own party hanging him out to dry and distancing themselves from him ASAP.

Politics has always been an area full of chancers and the corruptable but it used to be that once you were caught, you resigned or were quickly disposed of. Where did that go?

Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
I don't think any Labour leader has ever had complete control; there are always those agitating for the Leader to be more Socialist, or more Centrist.

Starmer has only recently had to deal with MPs & even Shadow Cabinet members turning up on picket lines, despite being explicitly told not to give the red tops that photo op.
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The wanking on about Starmer being a liar or breaking election promises is really tiresome. Most of it - not all - just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The problem is the policies he does talk about.

Take the pledge that everyone was howling about last year:
5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
The problem? Starmer and others backed away from renationalising rail. On the face of it, that's an easy one to mark as a broken promise. But the turnabout was because putting ideology ahead of financial reality was a fucking stupid idea. Thanks to the Tories, and thanks to Covid, it would be suicidally ruinous to commit to renationalising the rail companies before we get the economy back into a position where the government can take over this kind of responsibility. That's not an evil mastermind pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, that's an honest appraisal of how much of a financial basket case this country is in and will be in when Labour are in a position to do something about it.

2019 was a long time ago. The reality has changed.
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Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:26 pm
Starmer is still fighting his own battles within his party to keep the full blown loons under control which I suspects limits him. It may be that he is this generation's Neil Kinnock - the chap who clears out the crud to leave a clear run at government for somebody else.
The bone Blair threw the left so they'd leave him alone was fox hunting, and thus we saw a shitload of parliamentary time given over to fox hunting rather than looking at the Lords, education, food standards...

So what's odd in this is Starmer could throw the left the bone of really going after conflicts of interest, probity in government, the civil service and NGOs, tax avoidance and tax evasion..., and dress it up as being popular on the back of austerity, and there's a lot for the left to get quit excited about in all that. And yet he's not, either because he flat out doesn't want to, or it's just part of the wider gambit to say nothing but the Tories are rubbish and it's time for Labour. If he doesn't want to it might be more he doesn't want the time it might subsume when there are other things to address, but unless he ever wants to say what those are it's a free shot on him as things stand
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:37 pm The wanking on about Starmer being a liar or breaking election promises is really tiresome. Most of it - not all - just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The problem is the policies he does talk about.

Take the pledge that everyone was howling about last year:
5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
The problem? Starmer and others backed away from renationalising rail. On the face of it, that's an easy one to mark as a broken promise. But the turnabout was because putting ideology ahead of financial reality was a fucking stupid idea. Thanks to the Tories, and thanks to Covid, it would be suicidally ruinous to commit to renationalising the rail companies before we get the economy back into a position where the government can take over this kind of responsibility. That's not an evil mastermind pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, that's an honest appraisal of how much of a financial basket case this country is in and will be in when Labour are in a position to do something about it.

2019 was a long time ago. The reality has changed.
Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
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fishfoodie wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:24 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:40 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:34 pm

I hadn't thought of this but it does seem to be going that way. Are there any young things even looking mildly good enough in the ranks though? particularly before the next election.
Not really true, he doesn't have to deal with anyone and has had complete control of labour for c 2 years now. Starmer having no vision, breaking all his promises and being completely lacking in ideas or charisma really has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself. And if he can't beat a government that is actively harmful in that they're making the economy and public services far worse and being outright corrupt in doing so it is he and his acolytes that should be binned post haste.

Fwiw I think he'll win the next election but achieve nothing in power and lose after 5 years. But they won't corrupt which is a nice change of pace.
I don't think any Labour leader has ever had complete control; there are always those agitating for the Leader to be more Socialist, or more Centrist.

Starmer has only recently had to deal with MPs & even Shadow Cabinet members turning up on picket lines, despite being explicitly told not to give the red tops that photo op.
I mean that will happen in all parties. Tories have even less control of the party and currently so much more dissent than Labour. They're planning to oust Sunak for Johnson as we type. To say I won't vote for a disunited Labour and will have to vote Tory would be just crazy.
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:07 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:37 pm The wanking on about Starmer being a liar or breaking election promises is really tiresome. Most of it - not all - just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The problem is the policies he does talk about.

Take the pledge that everyone was howling about last year:
5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
The problem? Starmer and others backed away from renationalising rail. On the face of it, that's an easy one to mark as a broken promise. But the turnabout was because putting ideology ahead of financial reality was a fucking stupid idea. Thanks to the Tories, and thanks to Covid, it would be suicidally ruinous to commit to renationalising the rail companies before we get the economy back into a position where the government can take over this kind of responsibility. That's not an evil mastermind pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, that's an honest appraisal of how much of a financial basket case this country is in and will be in when Labour are in a position to do something about it.

2019 was a long time ago. The reality has changed.
Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
Changing policy based upon the financial reality to reflect the chaos the Tories have caused rather than ploughing on regardless?
Ffs it's the sensible thing to do.
I dislike Starmer and his team but FFS the world is a different place after Covid and the Truss shit storm.
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:07 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:37 pm The wanking on about Starmer being a liar or breaking election promises is really tiresome. Most of it - not all - just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The problem is the policies he does talk about.

Take the pledge that everyone was howling about last year:
5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
The problem? Starmer and others backed away from renationalising rail. On the face of it, that's an easy one to mark as a broken promise. But the turnabout was because putting ideology ahead of financial reality was a fucking stupid idea. Thanks to the Tories, and thanks to Covid, it would be suicidally ruinous to commit to renationalising the rail companies before we get the economy back into a position where the government can take over this kind of responsibility. That's not an evil mastermind pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, that's an honest appraisal of how much of a financial basket case this country is in and will be in when Labour are in a position to do something about it.

2019 was a long time ago. The reality has changed.
Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
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There's not a lot of point in an opposition party making firm commitments for an election in two years time right now.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:33 pm There's not a lot of point in an opposition party making firm commitments for an election in two years time right now.
Certainly an element of truth in saying "we can't make commitments now because we have no idea just how much the current shower of shite are going to make even more of a bollocks of running the country"

Has to be expressed slightly less crudely though, I'll grant
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:18 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:07 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:37 pm The wanking on about Starmer being a liar or breaking election promises is really tiresome. Most of it - not all - just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The problem is the policies he does talk about.

Take the pledge that everyone was howling about last year:



The problem? Starmer and others backed away from renationalising rail. On the face of it, that's an easy one to mark as a broken promise. But the turnabout was because putting ideology ahead of financial reality was a fucking stupid idea. Thanks to the Tories, and thanks to Covid, it would be suicidally ruinous to commit to renationalising the rail companies before we get the economy back into a position where the government can take over this kind of responsibility. That's not an evil mastermind pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, that's an honest appraisal of how much of a financial basket case this country is in and will be in when Labour are in a position to do something about it.

2019 was a long time ago. The reality has changed.
Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
No point in making the pledge in the first place. Renationalisation was always going to be ruinously expensive. He didn't follow through because he didn't believe it from the start.

Same with his believes on Brexit included in those pledges, polling shows most know it's awful now but he won't say a word.

Same with his supporting trade unions, he won't do it now because he's scared of the press response. Won't stand up for it.

Starmer isn't honest and lacks principles beyond I'll be sensible in charge. Cash needs to be spend, brexit needs to be rowed back on. It's time he is honest. Or not, and hope doing/saying nothing will win because the Tories are such a mess.
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:42 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:18 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:07 pm

Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
No point in making the pledge in the first place. Renationalisation was always going to be ruinously expensive. He didn't follow through because he didn't believe it from the start.

Same with his believes on Brexit included in those pledges, polling shows most know it's awful now but he won't say a word.

Same with his supporting trade unions, he won't do it now because he's scared of the press response. Won't stand up for it.

Starmer isn't honest and lacks principles beyond I'll be sensible in charge. Cash needs to be spend, brexit needs to be rowed back on. It's time he is honest. Or not, and hope doing/saying nothing will win because the Tories are such a mess.
Starmer and Labour don't want to scare the horses and don't want to give the Tories easy ammunition in the run up to the next election so he is deliberately aiming for the middle ground and is targeting specifically the swing seats and voters he needs to get over the line at the next GE. In particular with 75%+ of the media & press in the hands of right wing Tory supporting non-doms he really does have to avoid giving them anything substantial to target a la Corbyn. This does mean making some pretty shit decisions and seeming to gravitate to the right a bit more but it is all about getting the vote of about 5-10% of the voters in places like the red wall seats and marginal Tory seats. He won't make any ground in Scotland so isn't really bothered about us Scots, it really does come down to these swing voters. The messaging and the policies aren't aimed at existing die hard labour voters nor the small number of Scots who vote labour, it is about winning the next election pure and simply and that a means persuading middle England to vote for him. The level of detail and granularity the parties go into now to target votes is pretty scientific and pretty impressive and this drives the messaging. I am sure some of what he and Labour are having to do to win the next election sticks in the craw but that's politics folks, that's what it takes to win an election. To be honest I wouldn't care if he sold his granny to the devil if it meant getting into power and getting rid of these racist shysters of a Tory Gov asap.
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I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:42 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:18 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:07 pm

Rail... water... energy.... Him and Wes Streeting have been telling everyone who will listen the private sector has a big part to play in the NHS recently so let's assume he's not kept any of his four. So not "just rail".

And then there's the other 9 pledges he's also rowed back on. The right wing press are starting to attack him for it which I'm not sure is the right move for them making him seem not an out of control socialist which people dislike more than a liar.

But don't be mistaken, the reason people think Starmer is a liar is because Starmer is a liar.
It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
No point in making the pledge in the first place. Renationalisation was always going to be ruinously expensive. He didn't follow through because he didn't believe it from the start.
Come on, you cannot seriously be refusing to understand the difference between 2019 and now.
Same with his believes on Brexit included in those pledges, polling shows most know it's awful now but he won't say a word.
Brexit isn't in the pledges. The closest you get is the migrants' right stuff, which previously he's been fine on and very recently has said something entirely stupid that I completely disagree with.
Same with his supporting trade unions, he won't do it now because he's scared of the press response. Won't stand up for it.
Is this a joke? Aside from the picket line nonsense, it's been a consistent line from Starmer and his allies to be in support of trade unions.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ke ... 66050.html

https://www.bigissue.com/news/employmen ... to-strike/

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/ ... t-workers/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... d-disputes
Starmer isn't honest and lacks principles beyond I'll be sensible in charge. Cash needs to be spend, brexit needs to be rowed back on. It's time he is honest. Or not, and hope doing/saying nothing will win because the Tories are such a mess.
Rowing back on Brexit is hugely complicated and an absolute minefield that is probably the only thing standing between Labour and a washout of the Tories.

Starmer doesn't seem to be dishonest and doesn't seem to lack principles.

It seems very clear that he views it as being of the utmost importance that Labour get into power with a big majority so that they can enact real change. His problem is he's so laser focused on winning "back" Labour voters who voted Tory at the last election that he's leaning too far to pandering to them and ignoring the people who actually want to vote for Labour and who are more naturally in line with Labour's ideals, as well as anyone who didn't vote last time out (a huge number of people). I agree he's weak on a lot of stuff he should be much stronger on and much further left on. This doesn't make him dishonest. I also think he's too scared of the media and the whole "don't give them anything to use as ammo" is a dumbshit coward's choice because they'll make shit up anyway. Far better to give people something to believe in and win some voters rather than refuse to engage on hot topics.

And the biggest problem with the accusations of dishonesty are largely where they're coming from on social media. Disingenuous pricks with barely concealed agendas with paper thin arguments.
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dpedin wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:28 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:42 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:18 pm

It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
No point in making the pledge in the first place. Renationalisation was always going to be ruinously expensive. He didn't follow through because he didn't believe it from the start.

Same with his believes on Brexit included in those pledges, polling shows most know it's awful now but he won't say a word.

Same with his supporting trade unions, he won't do it now because he's scared of the press response. Won't stand up for it.

Starmer isn't honest and lacks principles beyond I'll be sensible in charge. Cash needs to be spend, brexit needs to be rowed back on. It's time he is honest. Or not, and hope doing/saying nothing will win because the Tories are such a mess.
Starmer and Labour don't want to scare the horses and don't want to give the Tories easy ammunition in the run up to the next election so he is deliberately aiming for the middle ground and is targeting specifically the swing seats and voters he needs to get over the line at the next GE. In particular with 75%+ of the media & press in the hands of right wing Tory supporting non-doms he really does have to avoid giving them anything substantial to target a la Corbyn. This does mean making some pretty shit decisions and seeming to gravitate to the right a bit more but it is all about getting the vote of about 5-10% of the voters in places like the red wall seats and marginal Tory seats. He won't make any ground in Scotland so isn't really bothered about us Scots, it really does come down to these swing voters. The messaging and the policies aren't aimed at existing die hard labour voters nor the small number of Scots who vote labour, it is about winning the next election pure and simply and that a means persuading middle England to vote for him. The level of detail and granularity the parties go into now to target votes is pretty scientific and pretty impressive and this drives the messaging. I am sure some of what he and Labour are having to do to win the next election sticks in the craw but that's politics folks, that's what it takes to win an election. To be honest I wouldn't care if he sold his granny to the devil if it meant getting into power and getting rid of these racist shysters of a Tory Gov asap.
I don't support all Labour policies but for the first time in my life I will vote Labour in 50 years of voting. Starmer just needs to stick to his guns
I just want rid of these self-serving, entitled bastards currently in government at the next opportunity
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:54 pm
I like neeps wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:42 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:18 pm

It doesn't matter if it's rail or water or whoever. The money won't be there. It's braindead to tie yourself into committing to self-harm.

The other 9 pledges being "broken" are largely even thinner. There's a couple where you can point to it being a potential betrayal and I back the criticism. There's no "all 10 pledges have been broken" discussion that isn't ridiculous bad faith arguments from terminally online people who see no issue with the garbage coming out of Skwakbox and co.
No point in making the pledge in the first place. Renationalisation was always going to be ruinously expensive. He didn't follow through because he didn't believe it from the start.
Come on, you cannot seriously be refusing to understand the difference between 2019 and now.
Same with his believes on Brexit included in those pledges, polling shows most know it's awful now but he won't say a word.
Brexit isn't in the pledges. The closest you get is the migrants' right stuff, which previously he's been fine on and very recently has said something entirely stupid that I completely disagree with.
Same with his supporting trade unions, he won't do it now because he's scared of the press response. Won't stand up for it.
Is this a joke? Aside from the picket line nonsense, it's been a consistent line from Starmer and his allies to be in support of trade unions.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ke ... 66050.html

https://www.bigissue.com/news/employmen ... to-strike/

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/ ... t-workers/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... d-disputes
Starmer isn't honest and lacks principles beyond I'll be sensible in charge. Cash needs to be spend, brexit needs to be rowed back on. It's time he is honest. Or not, and hope doing/saying nothing will win because the Tories are such a mess.
Rowing back on Brexit is hugely complicated and an absolute minefield that is probably the only thing standing between Labour and a washout of the Tories.

Starmer doesn't seem to be dishonest and doesn't seem to lack principles.

It seems very clear that he views it as being of the utmost importance that Labour get into power with a big majority so that they can enact real change. His problem is he's so laser focused on winning "back" Labour voters who voted Tory at the last election that he's leaning too far to pandering to them and ignoring the people who actually want to vote for Labour and who are more naturally in line with Labour's ideals, as well as anyone who didn't vote last time out (a huge number of people). I agree he's weak on a lot of stuff he should be much stronger on and much further left on. This doesn't make him dishonest. I also think he's too scared of the media and the whole "don't give them anything to use as ammo" is a dumbshit coward's choice because they'll make shit up anyway. Far better to give people something to believe in and win some voters rather than refuse to engage on hot topics.

And the biggest problem with the accusations of dishonesty are largely where they're coming from on social media. Disingenuous pricks with barely concealed agendas with paper thin arguments.
So Starmer would reverse a law that makes it illegal for unions to call a strike? That's good of him. Very pro-union indeed. Doesn't support them when they strike but would reverse the most anti union law going, good-o!

Unpacking Brexit is complicated, but as shadow brexit secretary his policy was people's vote, as campaign for leader it was defend free movement, and now it's never say or do anything. What is his brexit policy these days? He's not said what it is and twice he's just abandoned campaigns. He doesn't believe in Brexit, we know that. He wants to ignore it because as you say the press will have a field day. But he was right brexit being bad and it's a massive issue in Britain whether we discuss it or not (NI still doesn't have an assembly). I don't know about you but I thought principles was standing up for what you believe in when it comes to live issues?

When you look at his actions as DPP there's really no evidence of who he claimed to be in his leadership election. Since election there really is not either. He pretended to be more left wing than he is to win the leadership and then has spent his time as LOTR as he spent his time in the CPS not being who he said he was. It's pretty obvious what you call that.

Starmer has no principles that have consistently guided his time as LOTR. Not one, what does he care most about? What does he standing for? Hard to know for even me who follows politics and subscribes to the new statesman. He's a damp squib. Hopefully he wins the next election but having someone who doesn't answer the questions that he's scared of even asking is bad news.
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Brexit's happened. I loathe it, but it's the truth. That fight has been fought and lost.

The fact that you picked one of several points being made about the unions and pretended that was the sum total of Starmer's support for them is just silly. Come on.
When you look at his actions as DPP there's really no evidence of who he claimed to be in his leadership election. Since election there really is not either. He pretended to be more left wing than he is to win the leadership and then has spent his time as LOTR as he spent his time in the CPS not being who he said he was. It's pretty obvious what you call that.

Starmer has no principles that have consistently guided his time as LOTR.
This is garbled nonsense. No evidence of who he claimed to be in his actions as DPP? What? That's just word salad. What on earth is this based on?

p.s. I don't know what the LOTR is. Sorry.
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm p.s. I don't know what the LOTR is. Sorry.
He's been known as Mairon, Annatar, Artano, Aulendil, Gorthaur, Zigûr, and the Necromancer.

But mostly as Sauron.
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
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Mahoney wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:49 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm p.s. I don't know what the LOTR is. Sorry.
He's been known as Mairon, Annatar, Artano, Aulendil, Gorthaur, Zigûr, and the Necromancer.

But mostly as Sauron.
Ai! Ai! Ai! A Tory!
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SaintK
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Move along, nothing to see here
A Conservative health minister has a substantial financial stake in a private health screening and Covid testing firm, raising questions about the potential for a conflict of interest.
Nick Markham, a businessman who was given a peerage under Liz Truss and appointed to the health department, owns about 30% of Cignpost Investments and has done so throughout his first four months in the job.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2 ... tments
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Lobby
Posts: 1874
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Mahoney wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:49 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm p.s. I don't know what the LOTR is. Sorry.
He's been known as Mairon, Annatar, Artano, Aulendil, Gorthaur, Zigûr, and the Necromancer.

But mostly as Sauron.
I suspect that neeps meant LOTO (Leader of the Opposition), but given his virulent and irrational obsession with and hatred of Starmer, anything’s possible.
petej
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:41 am
Location: Gwent

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm Brexit's happened. I loathe it, but it's the truth. That fight has been fought and lost.

To speak about Europe and the UK you need this government out of power and time. Polls continue to shift towards brexit being a terrible mistake but conned people have to realise they've been conned and that takes time and you can't force it (also age of remain and leave voters favours remain).
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fishfoodie
Posts: 8752
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:25 pm

It's very inconsiderate of Tories to dump so many scandals at once.

How is Keir supposed to decide on which ones to use in PMQs ?

Personally speaking, I think he has to contrast the workers on strike, who are just asking for a living wage, against the financial skullduggery of the current PM, the former PM, & the previous Chancellor, who all did, their level best, to not contribute their fair share to maintain the services these people provide.

Maybe ask if the Bumblecunts 3rd cousin, once removed, can guarantee them a loan for 800k ?

Or can the Chair of the Party recommend a good tax lawyer .... in Gibraltar ?
dpedin
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:35 am

petej wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:43 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm Brexit's happened. I loathe it, but it's the truth. That fight has been fought and lost.

To speak about Europe and the UK you need this government out of power and time. Polls continue to shift towards brexit being a terrible mistake but conned people have to realise they've been conned and that takes time and you can't force it (also age of remain and leave voters favours remain).
Brexit isn't a binary choice though - there is a range of options within it and any new Gov could decide to backtrack on the 'hard' Brexit we got but never asked for and move to a closer and different trading relationship ie rejoin the Single Market and Customs Union. I don't think this would get as much flack from the public as some would expect, many would welcome it if it meant shorter queues at airports and ports and easier to spend the winter in your holiday villa in Spain. However there would be the usual crap from the usual Brexit 'mad as a bucket of frogs, brigade ie ERG, etc. It would certainly relieve the trading issues, sort the NI issue and ease our labour shortages pretty quickly. We could even claim it retained our UK 'sovrenty' whatever the feck that is or was! Given the economic disaster this current version of Brexit is creating for many I suspect it would be seen by many on all political sides as the only real way to stimulate economic growth for the next few years, ignoring the likes of JRM, Bone, et al.
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fishfoodie
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dpedin wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:07 pm
petej wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:43 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:31 pm Brexit's happened. I loathe it, but it's the truth. That fight has been fought and lost.

To speak about Europe and the UK you need this government out of power and time. Polls continue to shift towards brexit being a terrible mistake but conned people have to realise they've been conned and that takes time and you can't force it (also age of remain and leave voters favours remain).
Brexit isn't a binary choice though - there is a range of options within it and any new Gov could decide to backtrack on the 'hard' Brexit we got but never asked for and move to a closer and different trading relationship ie rejoin the Single Market and Customs Union. I don't think this would get as much flack from the public as some would expect, many would welcome it if it meant shorter queues at airports and ports and easier to spend the winter in your holiday villa in Spain. However there would be the usual crap from the usual Brexit 'mad as a bucket of frogs, brigade ie ERG, etc. It would certainly relieve the trading issues, sort the NI issue and ease our labour shortages pretty quickly. We could even claim it retained our UK 'sovrenty' whatever the feck that is or was! Given the economic disaster this current version of Brexit is creating for many I suspect it would be seen by many on all political sides as the only real way to stimulate economic growth for the next few years, ignoring the likes of JRM, Bone, et al.
and it would only take about twenty years to achieve ...... because the usual scumbags have done a marvelous job of poisoning the well in the relationship between the UK, & EU; & to this day, your Government still aren't complying with the terms of the agreement, & there are multiple legal actions still in play.

In many ways Starmers position on Rejoin is irrelevant, because Rejoin is a multi-Government journey, & whatever he or anyone else does, will just get sabotaged by the next Tory Government, so until Rejoin becomes Tory Party policy too, the EU know its not worth the candle.
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