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_Os_
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1. Imagine a situation where the state has misunderstood its own nationality laws for 20 years. That state has either wrongly issued passports to tens of thousands of people and will now have to take them back. Or has wrongly denied citizenship to tens of thousands of others.
2. Inevitably, it is the British state we're talking about. Those affected are children of EU citizens where the parent from whom British citizenship was derived did not have formal settled status. Children who can claim British citizenship from another parent are not affected.
3. Before 2 October 2000, the Home Office thought that all EU citizens living and working in the UK were "settled" for the purposes of British nationality law, therefore their children born in the UK after 1/1/83 were British.
4. The Home Office changed its mind with effect from 2 October 2000 and decided that EU citizens needed to have been granted indefinite leave to remain to be "settled". But the law had not changed, the Home Office just changed its interpretation of the law.
5. The High Court has found that the Home Office couldn't be right both before 2 October 2000 and after. Either those born between 1/1/83 and 31/12/20 were all not British or they all were British, irrespective of whether the parent had formal settled status.
6. The court decided that they were all not British. The Home Office had been wrongly recognising as British the affected children born before 2/10/00. Their status is now unclear. There may be an appeal, so this may not be the final word.
7. If the outcome stays the same, logic suggests they aren't in truth British citizens even though they may have been issued with passports. Passports are evidence of nationality, they don't confer it. Passports can be (and are) wrongly issued and then have to be withdrawn.
8. If the outcome is reversed (the Home Office was right before 2/10/00 and wrong after) then tens of thousands of children of EU citizens born since then were wrongly charged registration fees or denied citizenship. The parents would not have needed ILR or permanent residence.
9. My write up here. I'm not sure I've explained it clearly in this thread or in the blog post. It's a really complicated issue. But it looks like a monumental, epic screw up by the Home Office, which has simply buried its head in the sand for years.

https://freemovement.org.uk/high-court- ... -citizens/
Windrush MK2 is loading.

To be clear what this will mean, if it goes through. Anyone born in the UK to two EU citizen parents between 1983 and 2020, will be stripped of their British citizenship (because their parents would've been very unlikely to have ILR when they were born, as their parents would've been using free movement to come to the UK and not subject to visa control, IRL would be a pointless thing for them to get). What this will mean is potentially thousands of people in their adulthood who have only ever lived in the UK, will suddenly find themselves unable to work, unable to access benefits or the NHS, stateless, applying for non-UK citizenship (they may or may not qualify for), and having to prove they've lived in the UK for the past 5 years (that essentially depends on Home Office discretion regardless what evidence is provided) to acquire ILR in their new non-UK passport. The lead times on all those processes (potentially years), will simply mean some people without strong family/friend connections they can rely on (potentially for years) end up on the street or dead ... and I'm not exaggerating.

Immigration/citizenship law needs urgent attention in the UK, and not in the way Tory Home Secretaries bang on about. No one in the system (courts/Home Office/experts) really knows how it works and interpretation changes often, a total mess.
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tabascoboy
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:00 pm


Windrush MK2 is loading.

To be clear what this will mean, if it goes through. Anyone born in the UK to two EU citizen parents between 1983 and 2020, will be stripped of their British citizenship (because their parents would've been very unlikely to have ILR when they were born, as their parents would've been using free movement to come to the UK and not subject to visa control, IRL would be a pointless thing for them to get). What this will mean is potentially thousands of people in their adulthood who have only ever lived in the UK, will suddenly find themselves unable to work, unable to access benefits or the NHS, stateless, applying for non-UK citizenship (they may or may not qualify for), and having to prove they've lived in the UK for the past 5 years (that essentially depends on Home Office discretion regardless what evidence is provided) to acquire ILR in their new non-UK passport. The lead times on all those processes (potentially years), will simply mean some people without strong family/friend connections they can rely on (potentially for years) end up on the street or dead ... and I'm not exaggerating.

Immigration/citizenship law needs urgent attention in the UK, and not in the way Tory Home Secretaries bang on about. No one in the system (courts/Home Office/experts) really knows how it works and interpretation changes often, a total mess.
Well with this one at least the current Government can claim this issue dates back over numerous administrations right back to their own British Nationality Act 1981, but also can't pin this exclusively on the Labour governments as is their usual wont and "strategy". Let's hope that they sit down and work to a settlement that isn't the clusterfuck we have come to expect...
_Os_
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tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:19 pm Well with this one at least the current Government can claim this issue dates back over numerous administrations right back to their own British Nationality Act 1981, but also can't pin this exclusively on the Labour governments as is their usual wont and "strategy". Let's hope that they sit down and work to a settlement that isn't the clusterfuck we have come to expect...
If I was one of those people I would start the process of applying for any non-UK citizenship I was entitled to immediately.

In this area of UK law, rationality/common sense/fairness whatever you want to call it, doesn't always make an appearance when you think it will. You come to expect thorough going insanity.
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HMRC boss tells MPs ‘innocent errors’ are not penalised amid Zahawi tax row
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wi-tax-row

dpedin
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:27 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:19 pm Well with this one at least the current Government can claim this issue dates back over numerous administrations right back to their own British Nationality Act 1981, but also can't pin this exclusively on the Labour governments as is their usual wont and "strategy". Let's hope that they sit down and work to a settlement that isn't the clusterfuck we have come to expect...
If I was one of those people I would start the process of applying for any non-UK citizenship I was entitled to immediately.

In this area of UK law, rationality/common sense/fairness whatever you want to call it, doesn't always make an appearance when you think it will. You come to expect thorough going insanity.
What a feckin shitshow! Home Office just isn't fit for purpose.
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Hal Jordan
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I get the feeling that some in the Home Office will only be happy when no one has a right to live here, irrespective of where they were born.
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tabascoboy
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Hal Jordan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:29 pm I get the feeling that some in the Home Office will only be happy when no one has a right to live here, irrespective of where they were born.
...and the entire population apart from a "lucky" few, deported to Rwanda for "processing"


Windrush inquiry head disappointed as Braverman drops ‘crucial’ measures
Wendy Williams’ remarks come after home secretary confirms three key commitments will not now be implemented

The head of the inquiry into the Windrush debacle has expressed disappointment after Suella Braverman confirmed she has dropped three key reform commitments made after the Home Office scandal.

The home secretary said she would not implement two changes that would have increased independent scrutiny of the Home Office’s immigration policies and a third promise to run reconciliation events with Windrush families.

The recommendations were accepted three years ago by the government, after a formal inquiry by Wendy Williams examined the scandal under which the Home Office erroneously classified legal residents, many of whom arrived from Caribbean countries as children in the 1950s and 1960s, as immigrants living in the UK illegally.

Braverman wrote in a written ministerial statement: “The Home Office regularly reviews the best way to deliver against the intent of Wendy Williams’ Windrush Lessons Learned review.

“As such, after considering officials’ advice, I have decided not to proceed with recommendations 3 (run reconciliation events), 9 (introduce migrants’ commissioner) and 10 (review the remit and role of the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration) in their original format.”

The decision to drop promises made by the former home secretary Priti Patel, which was first reported in the Guardian and dismissed as speculation by a government minister, has prompted Williams to issue a rare statement.

Williams said she was concerned that the government had dropped the promise to create the post of a migrants’ commissioner, who would have been responsible for speaking up for migrants and identifying systemic problems within the UK immigration system.

Another promise, to increase the powers of the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration (ICIBI) so that they would be able to launch and release their own inquiries has also been abandoned, as work on the post-Windrush reform programme is downgraded.

Williams said: “I am disappointed that the department has decided not to implement what I see as the crucial external scrutiny measures, namely my recommendations related to the migrants’ commissioner (recommendation 9) and the ICIBI (recommmendation 10), as I believe they will raise the confidence of the Windrush community, but also help the department succeed as it works to protect the wider public, of whom the Windrush generation is such an important part.”

Patel made a firm promise to introduce all 30 recommendations made by Williams in 2020, who listed in her Windrush Lessons Learned review the precise steps the department needed to take to avoid any repeat of the scandal.

David Neal, the current independent chief inspector of borders and immigration, said the decision was a “missed opportunity” to improve scrutiny and trust in the government’s policies.

One of the people affected by the scandal, Judy Griffith, 68, was told by a jobcentre employee that she was an “illegal immigrant” in 2015, 52 years after she had arrived as a nine-year-old from Barbados. She was unable to work and as a result got into significant arrears and narrowly escaped eviction. She was also unable to travel, could not visit her sick mother in Barbados and missed her funeral in 2016. She said was depressed to hear that some of the reform commitments were being dropped.

“It feels like they aren’t interested in learning lessons. So many reports and recommendations have been published but so much of it has not been followed through,” she said. “So many of us are still waiting for justice.”
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fishfoodie
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dpedin wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:54 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64409947

Good God!
He has all the necessary requirements to work for GB News, as he's a despicable, immoral,, bigoted cunt.

Does the UK not have any legislation for, "Equal Time", when media outlets, give Politicians a platform ?
geordie_6
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Raggs wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:34 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:56 pm
Came to post that. Truly disgusting.
It took more than 24hrs for any stories about it to emerge in the media, which is possibly even worse.
_Os_
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Hal Jordan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:29 pm I get the feeling that some in the Home Office will only be happy when no one has a right to live here, irrespective of where they were born.
The elements that means this issue keeps returning are:

1. The UK has no written constitution, by that I mean a set legal text that's logically consistent and all other laws must comply with. Instead parliament makes the laws on an ongoing basis. But this means that various immigration acts/practices/conventions, over time can and do come into conflict with one another.

2. The first point means that parliament must proactively pass new legislation to prevent Windrush situations happening (this is the whole point of the parliamentary sovereignty model, it's supposed to be responsive and agile). But this requires competent ministers that haven't turned immigration into a political football. If parliament starts making bad legislation it makes the problem worse not better.

3. A lot of post-WW2 immigration legislation was made to deprive Commonwealth citizens of their right to British citizenship (especially those from/in the Caribbean who had very strong claims), this was then built on by subsequent immigration legislation. Which is how an internal Home Office report found the UK's immigration system it is tasked with enforcing is racist. Without getting too deep into it, this went as far as making categories of British nationality (there are 6 types of British nationality) that do not allow someone to live in the UK, it's possible to be a type of British national without being a British citizen.

4. Courts are then tasked with trying to interpret this huge mess, where it's possible to come to opposite outcomes from the same evidence (this is what judges have said). Where it's clear (as it seems to be regarding children born to EU citizens without ILR, they aren't UK citizens despite thinking they were their whole lives), then the courts have to reach legally correct but immoral verdicts. This is a problem for the Home Office too, as these verdicts often run counter to how they were running the system and the advice they gave (their advice was always that EU nationals didn't need ILR).

A lot of this could end with a new immigration act that sensibly resolved legacy cases, and reduced the burden on people that have been living in the UK for decades to prove they have (it gets ridiculous with binders stuffed full of documents and the Home Office still being unhappy). Windrush2 is easily avoidable if the Tories want to avoid it.

Windrush1 already shows what will happen, some of the people caught in that were UK born children to Windrush parents who had their British citizenship questioned by officials enforcing the hostile environment (they showed their UK NI number and UK birth certificate and were told to show their parent's passports to prove they were British), and when they couldn't prove they were British ended up homeless. It can happen because it already has happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... re-british
Last edited by _Os_ on Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JM2K6
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fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:49 pm
dpedin wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:54 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64409947

Good God!
He has all the necessary requirements to work for GB News, as he's a despicable, immoral,, bigoted cunt.

Does the UK not have any legislation for, "Equal Time", when media outlets, give Politicians a platform ?
No. We were going to have some but it turned out some fucker had stolen all the commas and they had to cut it short.
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JM2K6
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In further "Matt Hancock doing whatever he can to win public support" news:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64414637
Andrew Bridgen is threatening to sue fellow MP Matt Hancock after the former health secretary accused him on Twitter of "antisemitic, anti-vax, anti-scientific conspiracy theories".

Mr Bridgen was suspended as a Tory MP over a tweet likening the impact of Covid vaccines to the Holocaust.

A letter sent on his behalf is claiming £100,000 in libel damages.

Mr Hancock - who had the Tory whip removed for his reality TV appearance - is standing by his comments.
... this one might actually work
dpedin
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JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:26 pm In further "Matt Hancock doing whatever he can to win public support" news:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64414637
Andrew Bridgen is threatening to sue fellow MP Matt Hancock after the former health secretary accused him on Twitter of "antisemitic, anti-vax, anti-scientific conspiracy theories".

Mr Bridgen was suspended as a Tory MP over a tweet likening the impact of Covid vaccines to the Holocaust.

A letter sent on his behalf is claiming £100,000 in libel damages.

Mr Hancock - who had the Tory whip removed for his reality TV appearance - is standing by his comments.
... this one might actually work
Is that Andrew Bridgen who a judge said lied in court under oath, who lost the case against his family re running of the family potato business, who used his MP position to ask police to investigate his brother about some made up crime, a Brexit Spartan who thought any UK citizen was entitled to a RoI passport, who breached HoC MPs Code of Conduct and was suspended for 5 days, who was expelled from the Tory party for comparing covid vaccinations to the Holocaust and who was evicted from the family business home he and his second wife, a Serbian Opera singer lived in and had to pay £800k costs? If it is then I suspect creepy Hancock won't be all that worried!
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C69
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So the new proposed pension age is higher than the life expectancy in Blackpool.

The North South divide really is a blight on the UK.
dpedin
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Just listening to Hunt the Cunt make his speech on Radio 5. He is like a Headmaster making the welcome speech to new pupils - the 4 Es. Utter shite! However he has explained that the UK is ploughing headlong into creating the Sovereign Individual free for all that his Tufton Street mates, JRM etc have been wetting their pants over. Reducing constraints on banks looks like a recipe for Bank Crash.2 and the desire to reduce taxes by reducing spending is code for getting rid of public services. Full of buzzwords and taking advantage of 'Brexit Freedoms' - shite!1
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lemonhead
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Another for the hit parade, HS2 in trouble again.

Seems they can't link Euston and will turf people out at Willesden instead. And even then capacity may not be enough for the service. Another bonfire of free money.
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SaintK
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dpedin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am Just listening to Hunt the Cunt make his speech on Radio 5. He is like a Headmaster making the welcome speech to new pupils - the 4 Es. Utter shite! However he has explained that the UK is ploughing headlong into creating the Sovereign Individual free for all that his Tufton Street mates, JRM etc have been wetting their pants over. Reducing constraints on banks looks like a recipe for Bank Crash.2 and the desire to reduce taxes by reducing spending is code for getting rid of public services. Full of buzzwords and taking advantage of 'Brexit Freedoms' - shite!1
I gave up listening to the conceited cunt.
It's not as if he hasn't been at the heart of government during all the years of austerity and under investment for the past 13 years.
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SaintK
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lemonhead wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:00 am Another for the hit parade, HS2 in trouble again.

Seems they can't link Euston and will turf people out at Willesden instead. And even then capacity may not be enough for the service. Another bonfire of free money.
Should haave scrapped the whole thing years ago
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Sandstorm
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SaintK wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:14 am
lemonhead wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:00 am Another for the hit parade, HS2 in trouble again.

Seems they can't link Euston and will turf people out at Willesden instead. And even then capacity may not be enough for the service. Another bonfire of free money.
Should have scrapped the whole thing years ago
I agree. We don't "need it", but we desperately needed Govt to spend on Big Infrastructure Projects and this one gave them cold feet on all the others in the pipeline - so they didn't start any except Cross-Rail. Wankers.
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Paddington Bear
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We definitely do need it and this is a travesty if true
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tabascoboy
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dpedin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am Just listening to Hunt the Cunt make his speech on Radio 5. He is like a Headmaster making the welcome speech to new pupils - the 4 Es. Utter shite! However he has explained that the UK is ploughing headlong into creating the Sovereign Individual free for all that his Tufton Street mates, JRM etc have been wetting their pants over. Reducing constraints on banks looks like a recipe for Bank Crash.2 and the desire to reduce taxes by reducing spending is code for getting rid of public services. Full of buzzwords and taking advantage of 'Brexit Freedoms' - shite!1
Hey, things are only bad because other politicians and the media say it's bad! It'll be great!

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Sandstorm
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:31 am
dpedin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am Just listening to Hunt the Cunt make his speech on Radio 5. He is like a Headmaster making the welcome speech to new pupils - the 4 Es. Utter shite! However he has explained that the UK is ploughing headlong into creating the Sovereign Individual free for all that his Tufton Street mates, JRM etc have been wetting their pants over. Reducing constraints on banks looks like a recipe for Bank Crash.2 and the desire to reduce taxes by reducing spending is code for getting rid of public services. Full of buzzwords and taking advantage of 'Brexit Freedoms' - shite!1
Hey, things are only bad because other politicians and the media say it's bad! It'll be great!

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:crazy:
_Os_
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During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
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Paddington Bear
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
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Tichtheid
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Just move the London boundary to Luton, then it would be easy to get from Manchester to London pdq.

After all, Luton airport is in London, apparently
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:31 am
dpedin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am Just listening to Hunt the Cunt make his speech on Radio 5. He is like a Headmaster making the welcome speech to new pupils - the 4 Es. Utter shite! However he has explained that the UK is ploughing headlong into creating the Sovereign Individual free for all that his Tufton Street mates, JRM etc have been wetting their pants over. Reducing constraints on banks looks like a recipe for Bank Crash.2 and the desire to reduce taxes by reducing spending is code for getting rid of public services. Full of buzzwords and taking advantage of 'Brexit Freedoms' - shite!1
Hey, things are only bad because other politicians and the media say it's bad! It'll be great!

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It really is incredible we're still talking about EU red tape. Every single Tory voter is just an idiot, no redeeming factor to buying that stupidity. Fortunately there are fewer these days.
_Os_
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
Interesting, so I guess the question becomes what does lots (what volumes are we looking at?) of new people popping up in a confined part of zone 2/3 during rush hour do to London's transport network, hard to imagine Central/Piccadilly/District all being more rammed, hopefully most use the Elizabeth line.
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
Interesting, so I guess the question becomes what does lots (what volumes are we looking at?) of new people popping up in a confined part of zone 2/3 during rush hour do to London's transport network, hard to imagine Central/Piccadilly/District all being more rammed, hopefully most use the Elizabeth line.
Probably do the old "Eurostar in Waterloo" thing - high speed HS2 lines until Willesden, then slow down on existing tracks into *insert existing Zone 1 station here*
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Paddington Bear
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:34 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
Interesting, so I guess the question becomes what does lots (what volumes are we looking at?) of new people popping up in a confined part of zone 2/3 during rush hour do to London's transport network, hard to imagine Central/Piccadilly/District all being more rammed, hopefully most use the Elizabeth line.
Sandstorm is correct I would imagine, though the two main line stations with a feasible link to OOC (Paddington and Marylebone) aren’t oozing spare capacity.

What’s frustrating is this is all paper calculations as well, if you build it to Euston and do so ASAP it can start paying itself back sooner. And as far the people suggesting any money saved will be reinvested into the local network - if they believe that I have a tunnel to Euston to sell them
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Camroc2
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
There's HS trains and HS trains though. It's debatable whether the 300km/hr + TGV speeds are necessary in the relatively short London to Manchester run, and 200km/hr trains can easily be achieved by more simple track upgrading, signalling and electrification (if not already done). If the existing track way allows it, doubling, or even an extra single line of tracks can be enough to allow mixing of local and the lower HS trains. And at a much, much cheaper cost.
_Os_
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Sandstorm wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:43 am Probably do the old "Eurostar in Waterloo" thing - high speed HS2 lines until Willesden, then slow down on existing tracks into *insert existing Zone 1 station here*
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:58 am Sandstorm is correct I would imagine, though the two main line stations with a feasible link to OOC (Paddington and Marylebone) aren’t oozing spare capacity.
This seems not as bad as I imagined. Still wondering what the actual "saving" is though.

The UK/England seems desperate for any achievements at the moment (there's much more focus on big sporting events than there was for example), I don't think those wanting to cut HS2 are reading the room that well.
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Camroc2 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:45 am During the madness of Truss there were Tories saying they wanted to axe HS2 to balance the books and enable Trussonomics to happen. I posted it on the thread. Not surprising they want to cut costs by scaling it back. Dumb move, negates a lot of the point travelling to outer London then getting a bus/tube to central London, half the journey time could end up being the travel within London, meaning it's not high speed. There must be a danger of a regular train into central London being about as fast.
This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
There's HS trains and HS trains though. It's debatable whether the 300km/hr + TGV speeds are necessary in the relatively short London to Manchester run, and 200km/hr trains can easily be achieved by more simple track upgrading, signalling and electrification (if not already done). If the existing track way allows it, doubling, or even an extra single line of tracks can be enough to allow mixing of local and the lower HS trains. And at a much, much cheaper cost.
Completely agree on the speed element. 225mph (the current proposed running speed) seems like the easiest thing to reduce on this project as you say. For me I'd probably have just built a regular 125mph railway with stops only in the cities, the ECML has show just how fast a track that can create even with stopping services.

As to doubling existing lines, the WCML (the one HS2 is really trying to alleviate pressure on) underwent a major upgrade c.2010 (exact date escapes me). This was expensive, massively disruptive and is already at capacity again.
No reason you will have done but if you trace the WCML on google maps you can see there is no natural space for doubling and it runs through built up areas and industrial estates for huge swathes of the journey. Essentially, you can add extra tracks there but at a cost where you may as well build a new railway.

The issue with HS2, among others, is that it is wildly overspecced. The speed is the first element (which mandates being rod straight and extra strength bridges etc), tunnelling through cities and large swathes of countryside to appease people who were not appeased was a second, and I could go on. When you look at the scope of the project and what they are required to do, you can easily forget they're trying to build a railway.
With all this said though, if we build it properly it will have significant benefits and like with all infrastructure projects people will get used to it very quickly.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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tabascoboy
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OMG how horrific for the Tories, us oldies not falling for the guff they spew out...

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Camroc2
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:16 pm
Camroc2 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am

This is all true, though I’d point out that speed isn’t the central benefit of the new line compared to capacity. 2 hrs basically bang on to Manchester is a pretty fast track by any measure, the issue is running these trains on the WCML buggers up all local services
There's HS trains and HS trains though. It's debatable whether the 300km/hr + TGV speeds are necessary in the relatively short London to Manchester run, and 200km/hr trains can easily be achieved by more simple track upgrading, signalling and electrification (if not already done). If the existing track way allows it, doubling, or even an extra single line of tracks can be enough to allow mixing of local and the lower HS trains. And at a much, much cheaper cost.
Completely agree on the speed element. 225mph (the current proposed running speed) seems like the easiest thing to reduce on this project as you say. For me I'd probably have just built a regular 125mph railway with stops only in the cities, the ECML has show just how fast a track that can create even with stopping services.

As to doubling existing lines, the WCML (the one HS2 is really trying to alleviate pressure on) underwent a major upgrade c.2010 (exact date escapes me). This was expensive, massively disruptive and is already at capacity again.
No reason you will have done but if you trace the WCML on google maps you can see there is no natural space for doubling and it runs through built up areas and industrial estates for huge swathes of the journey. Essentially, you can add extra tracks there but at a cost where you may as well build a new railway.

The issue with HS2, among others, is that it is wildly overspecced. The speed is the first element (which mandates being rod straight and extra strength bridges etc), tunnelling through cities and large swathes of countryside to appease people who were not appeased was a second, and I could go on. When you look at the scope of the project and what they are required to do, you can easily forget they're trying to build a railway.
With all this said though, if we build it properly it will have significant benefits and like with all infrastructure projects people will get used to it very quickly.
FWIW I'm pretty sure that with modern signalling trains running at 200 kph can safely mix with slower traffic up to a point. But as you say, I am not familiar with either the west coast line, nor its usage.
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Paddington Bear
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Camroc2 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:33 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:16 pm
Camroc2 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
There's HS trains and HS trains though. It's debatable whether the 300km/hr + TGV speeds are necessary in the relatively short London to Manchester run, and 200km/hr trains can easily be achieved by more simple track upgrading, signalling and electrification (if not already done). If the existing track way allows it, doubling, or even an extra single line of tracks can be enough to allow mixing of local and the lower HS trains. And at a much, much cheaper cost.
Completely agree on the speed element. 225mph (the current proposed running speed) seems like the easiest thing to reduce on this project as you say. For me I'd probably have just built a regular 125mph railway with stops only in the cities, the ECML has show just how fast a track that can create even with stopping services.

As to doubling existing lines, the WCML (the one HS2 is really trying to alleviate pressure on) underwent a major upgrade c.2010 (exact date escapes me). This was expensive, massively disruptive and is already at capacity again.
No reason you will have done but if you trace the WCML on google maps you can see there is no natural space for doubling and it runs through built up areas and industrial estates for huge swathes of the journey. Essentially, you can add extra tracks there but at a cost where you may as well build a new railway.

The issue with HS2, among others, is that it is wildly overspecced. The speed is the first element (which mandates being rod straight and extra strength bridges etc), tunnelling through cities and large swathes of countryside to appease people who were not appeased was a second, and I could go on. When you look at the scope of the project and what they are required to do, you can easily forget they're trying to build a railway.
With all this said though, if we build it properly it will have significant benefits and like with all infrastructure projects people will get used to it very quickly.
FWIW I'm pretty sure that with modern signalling trains running at 200 kph can safely mix with slower traffic up to a point. But as you say, I am not familiar with either the west coast line, nor its usage.
Up to a point I think is right. The challenge with both main lines heading north is that they combine little local railways with the busiest inter-city lines, that are basically at capacity. This means demand is regulated by higher prices and service quality suffers (same as anything running at 95%+ capacity).
The more inter-city is placed on its own line the less it has to stop, the faster it can go and the more local services you can run. It also means one isn't so affected by the other - it once took me 8.5 hours to get home from Glasgow Central because someone pulled the emergency stop on a suburban train at Cambuslang, for example.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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tabascoboy
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"Blistering" is overstating it somewhat, but clearly Hunt is thinking all we have to do is "Believe in Britain", ignore the festering pustule of Brexit reality and magically everything will be glorious

petej
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Paddington is correct to state that a big benefit of HS rail lines is it frees up capacity for local train services and goods.
sockwithaticket
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:17 pm OMG how horrific for the Tories, us oldies not falling for the guff they spew out...

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My parents (in their 60s) are definitely less conservative now than they were 20 years ago, partly because my brother and I have challenged them on many of their views. They're very Christian by modern standards and are clearly a bit uncomfortable about LGBT stuff, but they're miles from where they used to be saying stuff like "It's just not natural is it?"

The Tories have done a very good job over the last 12 of backing up everything disparaging we ever said about them while also creating whole new reasons to despise them.
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SaintK
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:49 pm "Blistering" is overstating it somewhat, but clearly Hunt is thinking all we have to do is "Believe in Britain", ignore the festering pustule of Brexit reality and magically everything will be glorious

IoD's chief economist Kitty Usher not impressed either
But while he referenced the current prime minister’s Mais lecture of a year ago, that opened the door to using the tax system to encourage investment in people, capital and ideas, we heard nothing about how it would be done.
The chancellor himself said today’s speech was “not a series of measures or announcements”. We would therefore add a fifth E for ‘Empty’ to his 4 E’s economic framework.
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