Scottish Anthem?

[dkm57]

Can never understand the people who back Scotland the Brave as an anthem. It's the worst kind of heuchter teuchter shortbread tin Walter Scott wanking off a westie bollocks.

You are dead to me - speaking as a teuchter.

I'm a highlander too

Wait, was it that or are you a fan of wanking off westies?

Priceless guys

[Uncle fester]

Ah they don't belt it out like this anymore.


Suggestion for the Scots.


Happy memories of it belting out while the rain pelted down after one particularly wet Ireland-Scotland match.

[average joe]

Wait, I'm gonna be is not the Scottish Anthem?

[clydecloggie]

Wait, I'm gonna be is not the Scottish Anthem?

No, that's the unofficial unofficial one.

FoS is the official unofficial one.

Here to help.

[I like neeps]

Not a Hibee but this makes my hair stand on end!

I see the appeal I'm belting out "sorrow, sorrow, sorrrrrrow" before all Scotland matches.

[Torquemada 1420]

Torq: I have a lot of time for the Haka, honestly, but there's something to be said for scarcity. And the broadcast media don't help. I guess I feel a bit jaded about what used to be a genuinely superb and unique spectacle, but now it feels very forced and sometimes the commentators are almost hectoring people to enjoy it. It used to speak for itself.

Maybe I'm just old and grumpy and have seen the same thing too often. Too much rugby causes a lot of ills.

Agree with you entirely (honestly!)
1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.
2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.
3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

Now the only entertaining Hakas are


AND

[Torquemada 1420]

FoS is so good (IMO) that it essentially created the test for what makes a great anthem: If you can stop the band and the singer and let the crowd get on with it and for it to be a hair-raising experience.

For all that La Marseillaise is a great tune and a riot of a song, FoS and Land Of My Fathers are unbeatable under that metric.

I think we can all agree that both Aussie songs are risible, the NZ anthem is as dull as you'd expect, the other Latin ones are far too long, and the less said about the Irish the better.

edit: The joys of working from home: I am now playing Youtube videos for the Scottish and Welsh anthems

FM. I'm in agreement with you again. I need to go and lie down.

[Niegs]

After all this, I was thinking Big Country - In a Big Country would be fun, but it's too fast.

Alive and Kicking by Simple Minds has a great sing-along-able part...

What you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?
What you gonna do when Murrayfield burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?
Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?
Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Don't say goodbye
Don't say goodbye
In the final seconds who's gonna save you?

Oh, Alive and Kicking

[Thor Sedan]

1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

[JM2K6]

Was 2006 the famous Toilet Haka?

[Lobby]

Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

[inactionman]

After all this, I was thinking Big Country - In a Big Country would be fun, but it's too fast.

Alive and Kicking by Simple Minds has a great sing-along-able part...

What you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?
What you gonna do when Murrayfield burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?
Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?
Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Don't say goodbye
Don't say goodbye
In the final seconds who's gonna save you?

Oh, Alive and Kicking

Sky Sports used it for their football shows so in my eyes it's forever tainted

[sockwithaticket]

1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

I think some interpret the regulations around what opposing teams can do in response to the haka as being at the behest of New Zealand.

Not sure if they are or aren't, but they're bloody stupid. So long as teams aren't pulling a Cockerill/McDonald they should be free to do whatever.

[inactionman]

1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

I think some interpret the regulations around what opposing teams can do in response to the haka as being at the behest of New Zealand.

I think the order of it is a bit peculiar - anthems and then haka. I think it should perhaps be the other way round, even if that does reduce the spectacle.


eta: Was this the crux of the 2006 toilet debacle? That Wales insisted - quite legitimately- that Land Of My Fathers was played last of all, and someone in the NZ side threw their toys out?

[Thor Sedan]

Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

[Torquemada 1420]

Was 2006 the famous Toilet Haka?

And more. Complaints of disrespecting the Haka
- by not facing it (e.g. huddling away).
- by challenging it (a la France, twice). Even last year we had Rieko mouthing off that the Wallabies had done so: they had moved fwd in a boomerang shape IIRC?
- by not being silent through it. Example: in 2000, the Marseille crowd drowned the Haka in a cacophony of noise/whistles. In the 2004 fixture in Paris, at the Keewees' behest, we were told by the Stade screens to respect the Haka. Bolllox: many of us whistled louder but being Paris, part time fans were more compliant. There was more complaining at the RWC in Japan. And before anyone jumps to defend the Keewees here, the Haka absolutely is a tool of theirs to both pump them up and attempt to gain a psychological advantage over opponents.

Demands over where it sits in the sequence: after other sides' own routines or the anthems.

And these are just from the official channels. Don't get me started on the average AB fan.

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

[Lobby]

Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

I agree that it’s World Rugby (not RFU) who have decided that they need to set ‘cultural ritual’ rules, rather than the NZRU. However, there’s no doubt that the All Blacks are the major beneficiaries of this attempt to police how other teams are allowed to respond to their increasingly overblown and commercialised ‘ritual’.

[Thor Sedan]

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

[Thor Sedan]

Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

I agree that it’s World Rugby (not RFU) who have decided that they need to set ‘cultural ritual’ rules, rather than the NZRU. However, there’s no doubt that the All Blacks are the major beneficiaries of this attempt to police how other teams are allowed to respond to their increasingly overblown and commercialised ‘ritual’.

Which is bad - and what I have been saying - and how the massive majority of AB's fans see it as well.

[Slick]

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

Good post

[Torquemada 1420]

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

To be clear, I don't hate it. Worse, I have reached the zone of apathy/contempt for it! And I mean in a rugby context.

I hear your last point but being a Maori makes you a NZer but surely that isn't the case the other way round. How does this differ, say, from the Kansas City Chiefs? After all the citizens of Kansas could probably use the same basis of argument i.e. proximity and enough time qualifies as a merger of cultures? But stepping aside from that, from your own qualifier (red), not all ABs make the grade of Maori and so what are they doing the Haka for except as part of the stage production?

[Calculon]

Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

I agree that it’s World Rugby (not RFU) who have decided that they need to set ‘cultural ritual’ rules, rather than the NZRU. However, there’s no doubt that the All Blacks are the major beneficiaries of this attempt to police how other teams are allowed to respond to their increasingly overblown and commercialised ‘ritual’.

If that's really true then why hasn't the NZRU told the IRB that the Haka should be allowed to challenged?

[inactionman]

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

To be clear, I don't hate it. Worse, I have reached the zone of apathy/contempt for it! And I mean in a rugby context.

I hear your last point but being a Maori makes you a NZer but surely that isn't the case the other way round. How does this differ, say, from the Kansas City Chiefs? After all the citizens of Kansas could probably use the same basis of argument i.e. proximity and enough time qualifies as a merger of cultures? But stepping aside from that, from your own qualifier (red), not all ABs make the grade of Maori and so what are they doing the Haka for except as part of the stage production?

Not by race, but they can surely be an active part of an integrated culture - which is just ultimately a set of norms and customs.

I'm not sure the Kansas City Chiefs are all that engaged in native American (is that the correct term?) culture.

[Simian]

It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

To be clear, I don't hate it. Worse, I have reached the zone of apathy/contempt for it! And I mean in a rugby context.

I hear your last point but being a Maori makes you a NZer but surely that isn't the case the other way round. How does this differ, say, from the Kansas City Chiefs? After all the citizens of Kansas could probably use the same basis of argument i.e. proximity and enough time qualifies as a merger of cultures? But stepping aside from that, from your own qualifier (red), not all ABs make the grade of Maori and so what are they doing the Haka for except as part of the stage production?

The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

[Torquemada 1420]

Not by race, but they can surely be an active part of an integrated culture - which is just ultimately a set of norms and customs.

I'm not sure the Kansas City Chiefs are all that engaged in native American (is that the correct term?) culture.

Not saying this isn't hard and that probably the Keewees have made a much better and willing attempt at it than the Yanks.

[Torquemada 1420]

The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

[Simian]

The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

You asked what the difference was between the Haka and KC Chiefs branding, but seem to already recognise the difference between them, so that was a bit of a weird question really

To elaborate, the difference is essentially coproduction (directly involving groups and/or representatives from groups who might be able to usefully contribute to the development). The development of the Haka is often used as a good example of how successful coproduction can be. Things like the KC chief's branding are a great example of where coproduction would have been enormously beneficial.

It's nothing to do with people making a unilateral decision about what is or isn't acceptable or groups necessarily speaking with a unified voice. It's about making good faith attempts to ensure the groups' voices are heard and that they have input.

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I'm not a fan of anthems and find the haka boring. But this idea that it's in any way akin to appropriation of Native American imagery for sports teams is fundamentally wrong.

[Niegs]

The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

Kiwis will be able to say more clearly, but I think posters above have done a good job of saying how its integrated.

From a North American perspective, there is next-to-no cultural integration here like what the Kiwis have. In Canada, we've only just started land acknowledgements in big meetings and schools over the last few years. I hear it happens in some places in the US as well, but I really think there's no genuine feeling in it. We don't use any indigenous words. You'll see it on some signage, but it's not as easy to pronounce as Maori in some cases and there's virtually no education to teach it (you won't see/hear a mix of it on TV). I have heard indigenous people say to call their cultural clothing 'regalia' and not a 'costume', but I think things like First Nations Day and pow wows are still a sideshow rather than something knitted into our cultural fabric like Christian things that still hang on.

So I fall firmly on the side of let's do away with using FN imagery in sport in North America. No one's had people from the community (apart from Florida State University, I hear?) educate and bless usage of symbols, like I hear happens when NZ schools perform a unique haka or the Waikato Chiefs learn about imagery, cultural values, language, etc. to know what they mean regardless of their background.

I do think how giddy people get for the haka is as weird as people who hate it, though. Canadians and Americans applauding it and getting excited ... um, they're getting hyped to give us a whupping. Why are you applauding this? But saying it's an unfair advantage, yada, yada ... great, you've already played into what they want it to achieve! (Personally, I think the best "defence" is probably arms wrapped, bring your mates in for a collective squeeze, or a cheeky little counter-challenge.)

[JM2K6]

You only have to spend ten minutes in the ground before the teams come out at a Chiefs (Waikato, not Exeter) game to understand the relationship the sport and its community has with hakas plural. Cultural appropriation is the opposite of what it is.

(you can leave after that, they're a bit shit these days)

[Thor Sedan]

I do think how giddy people get for the haka is as weird

I have to say - a haka done well deserves folk getting giddy over it as it is an awesome sight of cohesion, culture and mana.

I'm not Maori - but my Sister married into a large Maori family. I have been present at enough marriages, celebrations and funerals to know the power of a proper haka.

But then you also get the NZ swimming team doing the haka - or sailing or basketball. Then it looks odd as it doesn't have the history behind it.

I just wish the AB's would keep it simple.

[Torquemada 1420]

The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

You asked what the difference was between the Haka and KC Chiefs branding, but seem to already recognise the difference between them, so that was a bit of a weird question really

To elaborate, the difference is essentially coproduction (directly involving groups and/or representatives from groups who might be able to usefully contribute to the development). The development of the Haka is often used as a good example of how successful coproduction can be. Things like the KC chief's branding are a great example of where coproduction would have been enormously beneficial.

It's nothing to do with people making a unilateral decision about what is or isn't acceptable or groups necessarily speaking with a unified voice. It's about making good faith attempts to ensure the groups' voices are heard and that they have input.

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I'm not a fan of anthems and find the haka boring. But this idea that it's in any way akin to appropriation of Native American imagery for sports teams is fundamentally wrong.

Like I said, it was to provoke discussion. That example was easy but by no means ubiquitous.

The bit in red sounds so reasonable but the real world is that someone has to make a decision (yes or no) and not everybody with a legitimate interest is going to agree with that decision. So, who is the ultimate arbiter?

[Simian]

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

You asked what the difference was between the Haka and KC Chiefs branding, but seem to already recognise the difference between them, so that was a bit of a weird question really

To elaborate, the difference is essentially coproduction (directly involving groups and/or representatives from groups who might be able to usefully contribute to the development). The development of the Haka is often used as a good example of how successful coproduction can be. Things like the KC chief's branding are a great example of where coproduction would have been enormously beneficial.

It's nothing to do with people making a unilateral decision about what is or isn't acceptable or groups necessarily speaking with a unified voice. It's about making good faith attempts to ensure the groups' voices are heard and that they have input.

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I'm not a fan of anthems and find the haka boring. But this idea that it's in any way akin to appropriation of Native American imagery for sports teams is fundamentally wrong.

Like I said, it was to provoke discussion. That example was easy but by no means ubiquitous.

The bit in red sounds so reasonable but the real world is that someone has to make a decision (yes or no) and not everybody with a legitimate interest is going to agree with that decision. So, who is the ultimate arbiter?

That’s the thing. With a coproduction approach you don’t need to have someone being the ultimate arbiter and making a yes / no decision. As for this not working in the real world… done well (by people who specialise it it) this approach has been shown to save large organisations substantial sums and minimise negative social outcomes.

[Biffer]

Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

[Dogbert]

Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

[Simian]

Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

[Tichtheid]

I used to sing that to my children when they were tiny to get them off to sleep.

Dick Gaughan does a brilliant version

[Slick]

Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Don’t be silly, it’s how this place works.

Have to admit I’ve never heard that song or of her, will be listening to more in the morning!

Is there a version somewhere with pipes? We must have pipes

[Dogbert]

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Don’t be silly, it’s how this place works.

Have to admit I’ve never heard that song or of her, will be listening to more in the morning!

Is there a version somewhere with pipes? We must have pipes

As Requested

If played too slowly , it can become a bit of a dirge



It was also played at the closing cermony of the 2014 Commonwealth Games

I know people have issues with the Scots in it , but just look on it as modern day Burns

[Slick]

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Don’t be silly, it’s how this place works.

Have to admit I’ve never heard that song or of her, will be listening to more in the morning!

Is there a version somewhere with pipes? We must have pipes

As Requested

If played too slowly , it can become a bit of a dirge



It was also played at the closing cermony of the 2014 Commonwealth Games

I know people have issues with the Scots in it , but just look on it as modern day Burns

Thank you.

Finding it a little hard to be convinced by that particular version…

I’d love an anthem with a bit of Scots and Gaelic in it