The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

I was very pleasantly surprised with our attack, I was staggered at how poor our defence was. Up in the gods I got a great view of just how gaping the gaps were in England's defence throughout the match, both my mate and I called VdM's first try from pretty much the start of his run. You have to think a few weeks with Sinfield will sort it out, and playing a midfield they clearly didn't plan to can't have helped either of course. But I am very fearful of how much space we could offer Capouzzo and chums.

The DVDM break is a weird one. At times our kick chases were excellent. Sometimes they were rubbish. The behind the posts cam shows that Farrell is sort of covering DVDM but he just get smoked and doesn't seem to actually try to make the tackle - Marchant then gets done by the sudden change of pace, then it's just a question of a bunch of players being done by the footwork at pace when trying to scramble. Dombrandt looked like he expected that final tackle to be made and was thinking more about what happens next than expecting to be the one making the tackle, which is dumb and just as bad as going high in the first place. Needed to use Saffer Brain for that one.

Even before that there were times when we just seemed half-hearted chasing what looked to me like decent enough kicks for us to put pressure on. I haven't watched it back so don't know if that correlates with certain players receiving the ball (i.e. were we prepared to sit off Hogg / DVDM but pressure the rest) or what, but it was really odd given how well we pressured them at other times.

Then at other times there's just a few bad decisions in defence and some ropey tackling on top of multiple players not paying attention to what each other defender is doing.

I saw a couple of times players getting frustrated with each other when organising defence. Ben Curry was exasperated with Ludlum at one point for being slow to cover for a gap. The DVDM try definitely feels like communication was part of the problem.

[JM2K6]

Not much of an Inside Line fan but he's spot on here:


Those two should have been busting a gut to get back into the defensive line, it was far from a guaranteed try at that point, and 2 extra bodies in the defensive line. Or if they'd worked hard enough they could have pushed Mako to get into the tackle too (I don't blame Mako for not getting in there, he would have been well placed to stop an offload etc).

Bit of a trust issue as well. DVDM makes the break, Smith covers across and gets stepped back inside, but that step also takes out Farrell who clearly thought Smith was going to get run over (note: this did not stop a Guardian journo stating that Smith did indeed get run over).

[JM2K6]

Totally accept that the regime & environment they were coming into was a massive factor and an inhibitor, but it goes way beyond that for me.

Just seems the last few years that the players we tout for "pace" or "power" come in and look bang average at these USP's. Of course test rugby is going to be a step up and a player is going to need time to find his feet, but from what I watch those who do come in don't really exhibit outstanding attributes and find it a shock to get to the required intensity and precision/consistency/error-free demands of performance.

Bedford are my team so I comment on the Prem as an outside observer. Whilst it's a competitive, close, entertaining league I'd question if it's great quality - Euro results across the board are hardly great are they - and does the development job in equipping players with the skills and standards for the top level.

LIke who? Beause I can't think of many fresh players who've been brought in for those qualities. More often than not it felt like honest toilers were preferred while those with the x-factor were mostly ignored or given 10 minutes here and there eg. Porter over Marchant.

It's also much easier for new players to come in and thrive if they're dropped into a winning team (or at least a functional one...). Ideally you'd also be drip-feeding players in one or two at a time and whether it be injuries or the whims of the departed dear leader we often seemed to be dropping in quite a few inexperienced players and dealing with constantly changing combinations, particularly in the backline.

That's not to say it's all on Eddie, but we've seen some of our players go well for the Lions and for their teams in Europe so I'm not convinced that their attributes simpy aren't as good as we think their Prem form suggests.

On the power front especially loads of them, to my eyes. Genge as a starter has brought it in patches. Hill did nothing. Simmonds very sporadically. Ditto Dombrandt. Lawrence. Cokanasiga. OHC at the weekend. We don't bring enough fear factor that teams have to worry about.

This is wildly over-egging it IMO.

Genge has provided it in spades. Hill brought a lot of negatives but his physicality was never in question, he had a huge impact there. Simmonds was poorly used and we rarely took advantage of what he's actually good at - when he finally got a run it was after his form had dropped off anyway. Dombrandt's barely been used by England but his cameos have shown he can replicate what he does at club level, and at the weekend his problems were nothing to do with power (or pace). Cokanasiga, for all I think he's out of his depth, did actually show his power quite often. Lawrence is another one put in a straitjacket. OHC barely got the ball!

Look at Ribbans, who immediately brought the same physicality when he came into the side. Or Chessum & Ludlum at the weekend. Ben Curry had problems but he still belted people like he does week in week out. Ben Earl, who's not a huge bloke, did not look any different to his club self when he was carrying and tackling off the bench.

And it's especially weird to bring that up after our best carrying performance for ages. I'm really happy with how that aspect went.

[Mahoney]

It's always worth remembering on these occasions quite how much difference a score makes - England win that (and they were winning with 5 minutes to go) and a great deal of the discussion would have a very different tone, though 90% of the match would have occurred in exactly the same way.

[Hal Jordan]

I reckon DVDM still scores on his breakaway try even if Dombrandt catches him, the momentum gets him there. A chase down last ditch tackle from behind still usually results in the attacker travelling forward as grabbing a guy of his size, arresting his momentum and even dragging him backwards all whilst you've been flying in the same direction to run him down is highly unlikely.

But the damage had already been done with previous missed tackles allowing him to get up a proper head of steam.

[Oxbow]

I reckon DVDM still scores on his breakaway try even if Dombrandt catches him, the momentum gets him there. A chase down last ditch tackle from behind still usually results in the attacker travelling forward as grabbing a guy of his size, arresting his momentum and even dragging him backwards all whilst you've been flying in the same direction to run him down is highly unlikely.

But the damage had already been done with previous missed tackles allowing him to get up a proper head of steam.

Nah, he was still about 10m from the line, a tackle round the legs would have bought him down well short.

[Niegs]

Both highlight the RFU should have been forcing everyone to go for waist & below tackles ages ago. Better tracking needed. #HipsDontLie

[Torquemada 1420]

I know I mentioned this on the 6N thread but am still surprised at how unfit Eng looked. Most notable after that passage of play where they had bodies strewn everywhere and resorted to time wasting to slow it all down. There was a general sense of lethargy (see some of the kick non chases: why kick the f**king thing then........ unless you are Ntamack?) and the Scots didn't look anywhere near as troubled. You'd never have Eng down as anything but one of the fittest sides in preparation regardless of anything else that might limit them.

If that lack of zip manifests itself against Ire, then a hammering is on the cards.

[Kawazaki]

Not much of an Inside Line fan but he's spot on here:


Those two should have been busting a gut to get back into the defensive line, it was far from a guaranteed try at that point, and 2 extra bodies in the defensive line. Or if they'd worked hard enough they could have pushed Mako to get into the tackle too (I don't blame Mako for not getting in there, he would have been well placed to stop an offload etc).

Bit of a trust issue as well. DVDM makes the break, Smith covers across and gets stepped back inside, but that step also takes out Farrell who clearly thought Smith was going to get run over (note: this did not stop a Guardian journo stating that Smith did indeed get run over).

It's shite technique from Smith and Farrell to be honest. Needed to use the touchline there.

[Slick]

I agree with that, Skippy the Speedbump overcommitted and not really sure what Farrell was doing, looked knackered. Has Mako put on about 5 stone?

[JM2K6]

I agree with that, Skippy the Speedbump overcommitted and not really sure what Farrell was doing, looked knackered. Has Mako put on about 5 stone?

Skippy the speedbump has a way to go before he's Finn Russell in the defensive stakes.

(Smith missed 2 tackles to Russell's 6)

[Slick]

I agree with that, Skippy the Speedbump overcommitted and not really sure what Farrell was doing, looked knackered. Has Mako put on about 5 stone?

Skippy the speedbump has a way to go before he's Finn Russell in the defensive stakes.

(Smith missed 2 tackles to Russell's 6)

If ever there was a stat that told lies.

[JM2K6]

I agree with that, Skippy the Speedbump overcommitted and not really sure what Farrell was doing, looked knackered. Has Mako put on about 5 stone?

Skippy the speedbump has a way to go before he's Finn Russell in the defensive stakes.

(Smith missed 2 tackles to Russell's 6)

If ever there was a stat that told lies.

Ah yes, it's the facts that are wrong.

Glad you're enjoying the win, maybe fuck off out of the England thread if you're going to do stuff like this though.

[Slick]

Skippy the speedbump has a way to go before he's Finn Russell in the defensive stakes.

(Smith missed 2 tackles to Russell's 6)

If ever there was a stat that told lies.

Ah yes, it's the facts that are wrong.

Glad you're enjoying the win, maybe fuck off out of the England thread if you're going to do stuff like this though.

Fair enough, out

[Hal Jordan]

I reckon DVDM still scores on his breakaway try even if Dombrandt catches him, the momentum gets him there. A chase down last ditch tackle from behind still usually results in the attacker travelling forward as grabbing a guy of his size, arresting his momentum and even dragging him backwards all whilst you've been flying in the same direction to run him down is highly unlikely.

But the damage had already been done with previous missed tackles allowing him to get up a proper head of steam.

Nah, he was still about 10m from the line, a tackle round the legs would have bought him down well short.

I thought that he was closer. But I had been drinking.

[Ovals]

Squad announced

No Lawes or Kelly - both still injured I guess.

Arundell called up.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum

Dan Cole

Ben Curry

Alex Dombrandt

Tom Dunn

Ben Earl

Ellis Genge

Jamie George

Joe Heyes

Jonny Hill

Nick Isiekwe

Maro Itoje

Lewis Ludlam

David Ribbans

Bevan Rodd

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Mako Vunipola

Jack Walker

Jack Willis

Backs

Henry Arundell

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

Ollie Hassell-Collins

Ollie Lawrence

Max Malins

Joe Marchant

Alex Mitchell

Henry Slade

Fin Smith

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet

Anthony Watson

Ben Youngs

[Paddington Bear]

Think we all already knew but Cockers confirmed as gone after the 6N, off to Montpellier. Ian Peel to replace him

[SaintK]

Think we all already knew but Cockers confirmed as gone after the 6N, off to Montpellier. Ian Peel to replace him

Cockers was made the Montpellier offer some weeks ago, but was hoping to stay with England through to the RWC
Peel is not a done deal yet.

[Torquemada 1420]

Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

That's devastating, might delete the post

[Torquemada 1420]

Think we all already knew but Cockers confirmed as gone after the 6N, off to Montpellier. Ian Peel to replace him

Perfect home for him. Anti-rugby coach joins the world's most anti-rugby club side.

[sockwithaticket]

Squad announced

Spoiler

Show

No Lawes or Kelly - both still injured I guess.

Arundell called up.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum

Dan Cole

Ben Curry

Alex Dombrandt

Tom Dunn

Ben Earl

Ellis Genge

Jamie George

Joe Heyes

Jonny Hill

Nick Isiekwe

Maro Itoje

Lewis Ludlam

David Ribbans

Bevan Rodd

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Mako Vunipola

Jack Walker

Jack Willis

Backs

Henry Arundell

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

Ollie Hassell-Collins

Ollie Lawrence

Max Malins

Joe Marchant

Alex Mitchell

Henry Slade

Fin Smith

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet

Anthony Watson

Ben Youngs

Shame to see that Murley's been dropped.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Squad announced

Spoiler

Show

No Lawes or Kelly - both still injured I guess.

Arundell called up.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum

Dan Cole

Ben Curry

Alex Dombrandt

Tom Dunn

Ben Earl

Ellis Genge

Jamie George

Joe Heyes

Jonny Hill

Nick Isiekwe

Maro Itoje

Lewis Ludlam

David Ribbans

Bevan Rodd

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Mako Vunipola

Jack Walker

Jack Willis

Backs

Henry Arundell

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

Ollie Hassell-Collins

Ollie Lawrence

Max Malins

Joe Marchant

Alex Mitchell

Henry Slade

Fin Smith

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet

Anthony Watson

Ben Youngs

Shame to see that Murley's been dropped.

Particularly when we have finally seen a game plan where the wingers at least occasionally see the ball. He's a good finisher.

The Ben Youngs folder of compomising photos must be more extensive than we realised.

[Torquemada 1420]

The Ben Youngs folder of compomising photos must be more extensive than we realised.

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

[ASMO]

So Wiggelswirth and Waters being brought in from Leicester to the England coaching squad for the RWC. Why not just bring the rest of the Leicester team and backroom staff while you are at it...joke

[inactionman]

So Wiggelswirth and Waters being brought in from Leicester to the England coaching squad for the RWC. Why not just bring the rest of the Leicester team and backroom staff while you are at it...joke

In Borthwick's defence, he doesn't really have luxury of time and I can see why he'd go for the familiar.

[sockwithaticket]

So Wiggelswirth and Waters being brought in from Leicester to the England coaching squad for the RWC. Why not just bring the rest of the Leicester team and backroom staff while you are at it...joke

In Borthwick's defence, he doesn't really have luxury of time and I can see why he'd go for the familiar.

Also there aren't many quality coaches just sitting around doing nothing, who'll leap at the chance for a world cup only appointment. Borthwick can obviously ask any coach he pleases, but how many would get dispensation from their clubs to go moonlight with England for 3 - 4 months (depending on how deep into the competition they get)? Those most likely to help him are probably his recent colleagues.

[Hal Jordan]

The Ben Youngs folder of compomising photos must be more extensive than we realised.

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

A steady, calming influence.

[Paddington Bear]

The Ben Youngs folder of compomising photos must be more extensive than we realised.

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

[dpedin]

The Ben Youngs folder of compomising photos must be more extensive than we realised.

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

[Ovals]

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

George is our best Hooker - 32 isn't old for his position. His darts are normallypretty good - he'd not trained much for the last two weeks - so expet to see the line out combination to work better next time. Cole has been playing really well for Leicester and is there to shore up our srcum which was a big concern after the AIs - it's a short term fix - he showed how effective he is wen he came on and immediately won a scrum penalty. Vunipola and Youngs really shouldn't be anywhere near the squad - but there are limits on how many changes Borthers could make.

[Hal Jordan]

Actually, the one reason I can see for retaining Youngs is familiarity on Borthwick's part, having worked with him at Leicester and in earlier England coaching.

Still should pick JVP to start and Mitchell on the Bench against Italy, though.

[inactionman]

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

[SaintK]

..........and then there were none at Tigers!

England have raided the Leicester Tigers coaching set-up again with Richard Wigglesworth and Aled Walters to join Steve Borthwick’s management team ahead of the World Cup.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-sta ... worth/

[Raggs]

Just watched ire wal, Ireland looked very good in the first half, then just were happy to do enough second half. Wales looked poor/average in the first half, and were made to look poor by Ireland at times, then at least managed to fire themselves up in the 2nd half, but weren't playing much better. Ireland just did what they needed to do really, and it felt to me at least, that if Wales had managed to close the gap, Ireland would have just extended it again. Not looking forward to seeing us against Ireland. It'll be a good gauge to see where we are.

Shame that Kelly is out.

[SaintK]

..........and then there were none at Tigers!

England have raided the Leicester Tigers coaching set-up again with Richard Wigglesworth and Aled Walters to join Steve Borthwick’s management team ahead of the World Cup.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-sta ... worth/

Cheika and Cotter being linked with the vacant Tigers DoR role!!!

[dpedin]

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

[Oxbow]

..........and then there were none at Tigers!

England have raided the Leicester Tigers coaching set-up again with Richard Wigglesworth and Aled Walters to join Steve Borthwick’s management team ahead of the World Cup.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-sta ... worth/

Cheika and Cotter being linked with the vacant Tigers DoR role!!!

I'm just hoping they don't pinch Vesty from Saints.

[Paddington Bear]

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying but George has been (IMO) our best hooker for years, still is and his replacement is probably somewhere between 5 and 7 on our national 'depth chart'. It was the right call to play him. Borthwick has to make the best of a shitty situation, exacerbated by injuries and the agreement between the RFU and the clubs as to how many changes he can make to the squad. Let's not forget this was a 50/50 game, decided by a late score, that we put ourselves in a position to nick back with the last play. His strategy, despite the injuries and the damage of Jones' last year, very nearly paid off and we'd have had a week of nauseating 'the man's a genius' articles.

[SaintK]

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying but George has been (IMO) our best hooker for years, still is and his replacement is probably somewhere between 5 and 7 on our national 'depth chart'. It was the right call to play him. Borthwick has to make the best of a shitty situation, exacerbated by injuries and the agreement between the RFU and the clubs as to how many changes he can make to the squad. Let's not forget this was a 50/50 game, decided by a late score, that we put ourselves in a position to nick back with the last play. His strategy, despite the injuries and the damage of Jones' last year, very nearly paid off and we'd have had a week of nauseating 'the man's a genius' articles.

Quite! Easily still the best hooker in England and would be up there if a Lions squad was to be picked this year. Certainly wasn't one of his better matches but the same applies to several other players. Hookers nearly always get thge blame for for lineout errors but my ,mate who is an intrernationally recognised throwing coach and lineout analyst reckons that 70% of lineout errors are due to lifting and jump timing!
Wish we had as much strength in depth at hooker as FRance have got

[JM2K6]

Not sure about "easily" - he's been overtaken by LCD since the world cup. But "easily" still one of the best 2 and no-one else comes close to that pair yet.