The Official English Rugby Thread

[inactionman]

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

Yep, not much time or opportunity at all, sadly (I assume you meant before the WC, not the next 6N)

Borthwick's in a predicament of trying to change a team whilst maintaining a degree of continuity - he should have had longer, and some of the emerging players should have had more exposure by now, but we are where we are.

The selection of George is perhaps a nod to the fact the reserve hookers either aren't available (LCD, McGuigan) or aren't up to his level (Walker and Dunn are solid if unspectacular)

[Kawazaki]

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Both the Scottish centres were poaches. One of them is English.

England has just one EQP 12 playing in the Premiership. ONE.

Time for the RFU to get the SRU Ancestry.com login and start poaching some inside-centres.

[Margin__Walker]

There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

[Kawazaki]

Actually, the one reason I can see for retaining Youngs is familiarity on Borthwick's part, having worked with him at Leicester and in earlier England coaching.

Still should pick JVP to start and Mitchell on the Bench against Italy, though.

I've been familiar with scrumpox but I wouldn't want to make it's acquaintance again!

[Kawazaki]

There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

[sockwithaticket]

There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

[Raggs]

Just watching the game again. 11 minutes in, we've done well in 2 kicking duels, and both times got the lineup setup and in quite quickly (15-20 seconds from when the ball went out).

[Slick]

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Both the Scottish centres were poaches. One of them is English.

England has just one EQP 12 playing in the Premiership. ONE.

Time for the RFU to get the SRU Ancestry.com login and start poaching some inside-centres.

Edinburgh born Huw Jones was a poach? The eligibility rules are very confusing these days.

[Raggs]

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Both the Scottish centres were poaches. One of them is English.

England has just one EQP 12 playing in the Premiership. ONE.

Time for the RFU to get the SRU Ancestry.com login and start poaching some inside-centres.

Edinburgh born Huw Jones was a poach? The eligibility rules are very confusing these days.

Tuipulotu has a Scottish grandparent I believe too.

[Slick]

Yes, he does.

[Kawazaki]

There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

[Hal Jordan]

The lack of quality English inside centres is a bit weird. We have any number of 13s, either Test quality or potentials, but the 12 shirt seems to rely of late on Farrell or Slade, both out of position, or permacrock Tuilagi, who also played a good chunk of his career at 13.

Although given that Farrell has played most of his Test career, and certainly his best Test rugby at 12, one could argue that this us his position for England.

Still, any of them are better than Jamie Noon or Ricky Flutey.

[inactionman]

The lack of quality English inside centres is a bit weird. We have any number of 13s, either Test quality or potentials, but the 12 shirt seems to rely of late on Farrell or Slade, both out of position, or permacrock Tuilagi, who also played a good chunk of his career at 13.

Although given that Farrell has played most of his Test career, and certainly his best Test rugby at 12, one could argue that this us his position for England.

Still, any of them are better than Jamie Noon or Ricky Flutey.

Lawrence has played a few times there, and seems happy to switch into first receiver if needed - but, as you note, is predominantly a 13 of which we have many

There are quite a few who offered real potential but never quite made it - I always thought 36 had all the skills required, and Kyle Eastmond was electric for Bath for a good few seasons (although I recognise he's retired now). Ollie Devoto is one that got away, and not sure what Lozowski sees himself as nowadays.

[sockwithaticket]

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

[Niegs]

Sale seem to be stocking up on 12s of note... I wondered where Ryan Mills (as much a sicknote as Tuilagi?) went and see he's there, forgot Sam Hill moved there a while back too. Who'd left, I presume, because Devoto was the man at Chiefs?

Were people not talking up Max Ojomoh as potential England quality?

Being a bit cynical on the way everyone plays the same (seems to), I wonder if having forwards doing all the carrying in the midfield, and the alternative being a quick out-the-back play wide, I wonder if many can't be bothered with a big lug inside centre, instead going for the smaller one who's more of a traditional 2nd5/8?

[Hal Jordan]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

[Margin__Walker]

Yep. Youngs, Curry and Watson the noteable omissions

[Paddington Bear]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Watch us lose and it get blamed on a lack of experience

[inactionman]

Sale seem to be stocking up on 12s of note... I wondered where Ryan Mills (as much a sicknote as Tuilagi?) went and see he's there, forgot Sam Hill moved there a while back too. Who'd left, I presume, because Devoto was the man at Chiefs?

Were people not talking up Max Ojomoh as potential England quality?

Being a bit cynical on the way everyone plays the same (seems to), I wonder if having forwards doing all the carrying in the midfield, and the alternative being a quick out-the-back play wide, I wonder if many can't be bothered with a big lug inside centre, instead going for the smaller one who's more of a traditional 2nd5/8?

He is doing well at Bath, but seems to be behind Redpath in pecking order (Redpath is a year or two on from Ojomoh) - Ojomoh had a good run in the team at 12 when Redpath missed big chunks of the 2021-22 season, less so this season, only 3 or 4 starts at 12, a few games riding pine and a fleeting go on wings when everyone else had been through the wars.

Not the size of his old man but still athletic and powerful, and good skills and composure.

Definitely one to keep an eye on, he's 22 (I think) so good time to be kicking on.

[Margin__Walker]

Sale seem to be stocking up on 12s of note... I wondered where Ryan Mills (as much a sicknote as Tuilagi?) went and see he's there, forgot Sam Hill moved there a while back too. Who'd left, I presume, because Devoto was the man at Chiefs?

Were people not talking up Max Ojomoh as potential England quality?

Being a bit cynical on the way everyone plays the same (seems to), I wonder if having forwards doing all the carrying in the midfield, and the alternative being a quick out-the-back play wide, I wonder if many can't be bothered with a big lug inside centre, instead going for the smaller one who's more of a traditional 2nd5/8?

Think Ryan Mills, James Williams, Rory Jennings and Guy Porter all started at least in the last round of Prem games.

Definitely argue that they aren't always first choice or test quality. But in any prem game week there will be more than 1 EQP player at 12 in the league

[sockwithaticket]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

[inactionman]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

Is Fin Smith likely to feature, or is his inclusion more like Jones' apprentice idea?

<ignore - can't read>

[Ovals]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

Yep

2 Forwards to be culled - a Hooker and either a BR or Lock. Wouldn't be entirely surpised if he played Chessum at 6 but I hope not. And, hopefully he goes for Ribbans rather tha Isiekwe.

4 back to be culled - Looks like a very good chance that Arundell will be involved in the matchday squad.

A promising start to the week.

[Raggs]

I hope Ben doesn't get back in, they may be twins, but his brother is far better than him at this stage, and I think there's too far to go for him to catch up. There again, they're still only 24.... that's insane.

Disappointed that Rodd isn't back, Mako just looked poor.

[Hal Jordan]

I'd pick

Genge
George
Cole (zero point him being a sub)
Itoje
Chessum
Willis
Earl
Dombrandt

JVP
Smith

Arundell
Lawrence
Marchant
Malins
Steward

Subs

Sinckler
A hooker
Mako because we have to
Ribbans
Mitchell
Farrell
Slade
OHC

But no way is Farrell dropped, he's more likely to start at 10 than Dmith, I fear.

[Slick]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

A mate of mine up here is best mates with the Walker family. Was absolutely gutted he didn't get on on Saturday so hopefully a few minutes this week.

The Curry's are 24!!!!??

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

[Kawazaki]

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

[sockwithaticket]

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

[Kawazaki]

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

[SaintK]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

[Ovals]

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

You're waaaay too defensive.

[Ovals]

duplicate

[SaintK]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

[Raggs]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

And of course, the fact it was posted a while back and mentioned on the thread before that

Excited to see Willis again, Ludlam impressed me on Sat. Wonder if we'll try for a bigger 6, seeing as our lineout wasn't great.

[Ovals]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

And of course, the fact it was posted a while back and mentioned on the thread before that

Excited to see Willis again, Ludlam impressed me on Sat. Wonder if we'll try for a bigger 6, seeing as our lineout wasn't great.

Jake reckons it'll be Chessum at 6 with Ludlam moving to 8. I hope not - Dombrandt did make errors but he also ran some excellent lines in attack - and Ludlam isn't a specialist 8 having played 90% of his games as a flanker. Lilewise Chessum (or Isiekwe) they simply aren't the best 6s we have available. The Backrow should be a strength for us, given the talent we have available there - but we, too often, hamstring ourselves by getting the balance all wrong. 2 Locks and Dombrandt, as jumpers, should be enough for a decent lineout.

[SaintK]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

And of course, the fact it was posted a while back and mentioned on the thread before that

Excited to see Willis again, Ludlam impressed me on Sat. Wonder if we'll try for a bigger 6, seeing as our lineout wasn't great.

On phone didn’t look back on the thread
All caught up now

[JM2K6]

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

Everyone was replying to your comment about the lack of EQP 12s.

[Kawazaki]

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

Everyone was replying to your comment about the lack of EQP 12s.

Yes, by listing a load of EQP 13s or a rare 12s who can't even get into their club sides, or 12s who are permacrocs. Amazed 36 wasn't mentioned as a viable alternative.

[Margin__Walker]

You said there was one EQP 12 playing in the prem. That's nonsense.

The discussion wasn't about viable test alternatives, which would have been a reasonable argument