The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

It’s not so much the narrative as the blindingly obvious. You don’t have to defend everything he does.

You can’t read anything into his cameo either way, particularly with the centre pairing he had.

I'm not defending anything, it was a failed kick and there's no defending that - the complaints are about England constantly kicking the ball into the in goal area or to defenders when in dangerous attacking positions with ball in hand, including the comical sight of Farrell kicking it with an overlap on inside the 22. What Smith did wasn't anything like that, at all. Surely you understand that?

I was as frustrated as anyone. They were playing to a blueprint, Faz far more egregiously.

One might suggest that execution matters. Last week we also saw plenty of kicks through, but they were intended as pressure kicks and largely did the job - we also tried to avoid doing them when a pass was the better option. You can defend Farrell to the death all you like but there's no getting around the fact that his decisions on when to kick and how they were executed were almost entirely off the mark.

[sockwithaticket]

It’s not so much the narrative as the blindingly obvious. You don’t have to defend everything he does.

You can’t read anything into his cameo either way, particularly with the centre pairing he had.

I'm not defending anything, it was a failed kick and there's no defending that - the complaints are about England constantly kicking the ball into the in goal area or to defenders when in dangerous attacking positions with ball in hand, including the comical sight of Farrell kicking it with an overlap on inside the 22. What Smith did wasn't anything like that, at all. Surely you understand that?

I was as frustrated as anyone. They were playing to a blueprint, Faz far more egregiously.

I think that's kind of it, there's clearly a game plan that errs towards the conservative side, but I find it hard to believe that Farrell's expected to kick as often as he does. That's a choice on his part.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not defending anything, it was a failed kick and there's no defending that - the complaints are about England constantly kicking the ball into the in goal area or to defenders when in dangerous attacking positions with ball in hand, including the comical sight of Farrell kicking it with an overlap on inside the 22. What Smith did wasn't anything like that, at all. Surely you understand that?

I was as frustrated as anyone. They were playing to a blueprint, Faz far more egregiously.

One might suggest that execution matters. Last week we also saw plenty of kicks through, but they were intended as pressure kicks and largely did the job - we also tried to avoid doing them when a pass was the better option. You can defend Farrell to the death all you like but there's no getting around the fact that his decisions on when to kick and how they were executed were almost entirely off the mark.

If you can point to anything I’ve posted that was positive about Faz’s performance today I’d be as shocked as anyone.

[JM2K6]

I was as frustrated as anyone. They were playing to a blueprint, Faz far more egregiously.

One might suggest that execution matters. Last week we also saw plenty of kicks through, but they were intended as pressure kicks and largely did the job - we also tried to avoid doing them when a pass was the better option. You can defend Farrell to the death all you like but there's no getting around the fact that his decisions on when to kick and how they were executed were almost entirely off the mark.

If you can point to anything I’ve posted that was positive about Faz’s performance today I’d be as shocked as anyone.

Ah my bad, it's pure coincidence the two Saracens fans are immediately saying it's the gameplan because Smith kicked it on halfway, and that your criticism of the backs only mentioned Slade, Smith, mocks people for criticising Farrell's "ad libbing", and squarely blames the gameplan for ignoring overlaps.

It's pretty transparent - you can't bring yourself to admit he was garbage, and you immediately look for scapegoats and excuses. For someone who's not missed a chance to question Smith's international aspirations over the past few months it's pretty telling that when faced with Faz putting in a really shitty display in almost every aspect that you can't actually provide direct criticism of him.

Even when pushed you can only blame "the blueprint".

[JM2K6]

Anyway, credit where it's due: The lineout was much improved, the defensive application much better, Willis had a huge game when it must have been tempting to give Earl the start, and Dombrandt returned to form with a bunch of big carries. Still more to come from everyone but the starting pack can be very happy with their work.

I pray Willis can stay fit!

[Paddington Bear]

One might suggest that execution matters. Last week we also saw plenty of kicks through, but they were intended as pressure kicks and largely did the job - we also tried to avoid doing them when a pass was the better option. You can defend Farrell to the death all you like but there's no getting around the fact that his decisions on when to kick and how they were executed were almost entirely off the mark.

If you can point to anything I’ve posted that was positive about Faz’s performance today I’d be as shocked as anyone.

Ah my bad, it's pure coincidence the two Saracens fans are immediately saying it's the gameplan because Smith kicked it on halfway, and that your criticism of the backs only mentioned Slade, Smith, mocks people for criticising Farrell's "ad libbing", and squarely blames the gameplan for ignoring overlaps.

It's pretty transparent - you can't bring yourself to admit he was garbage, and you immediately look for scapegoats and excuses. For someone who's not missed a chance to question Smith's international aspirations over the past few months it's pretty telling that when faced with Faz putting in a really shitty display in almost every aspect that you can't actually provide direct criticism of him.

Even when pushed you can only blame "the blueprint".

I think he was shit, if that helps. He follows gameplans to the nth degree and given everyone else grubbered when given the opportunity it is pretty bloody obvious that was the plan. You pile in bizarrely hard to exceptionally vanilla criticism of Smith (I didn’t even mean it as criticism), not everything needs to be ramped up to 11

[spike]

I wanted to see tactical astuteness and flexibility from Farrell today, together with some excellent broken play space management. What I got was playing the fucking gameplan beyond all common sense. A complete opposite of heads up smart rugby.

[RodneyRegis]

I'm not defending anything, it was a failed kick and there's no defending that - the complaints are about England constantly kicking the ball into the in goal area or to defenders when in dangerous attacking positions with ball in hand, including the comical sight of Farrell kicking it with an overlap on inside the 22. What Smith did wasn't anything like that, at all. Surely you understand that?

I was as frustrated as anyone. They were playing to a blueprint, Faz far more egregiously.

I think that's kind of it, there's clearly a game plan that errs towards the conservative side, but I find it hard to believe that Farrell's expected to kick as often as he does. That's a choice on his part.

So nev, if we've got a 5 on 2 in their 22, can I pass the ball then?

No Owen, when I say kick every time, I mean every time.

[spike]

Dear Santa I would like to see Mitchell and Smith start next match, with Lawrence and Marchant. Arundell on the wing. (sorry OHC we need lucky players). Never going to happen is it?

[Dragster]

Evans is some shit attack coach if he wants Non stop
grubbers in the 22.

[Kawazaki]

Smith trying to create something from nothing with a kick through out wide on halfway in the last minutes isn't quite the same thing as repeatedly blowing attacking opportunities by kicking the ball into the dead goal area or straight to defenders, but I see we have the narrative now

Writing a description of what actually happened in the match isn't a narrative.

This is a narrative: Smith's kick was a shite attempt, at least Farrell's grubbers broke the defensive line and got behind the Italians.

[JM2K6]

If you can point to anything I’ve posted that was positive about Faz’s performance today I’d be as shocked as anyone.

Ah my bad, it's pure coincidence the two Saracens fans are immediately saying it's the gameplan because Smith kicked it on halfway, and that your criticism of the backs only mentioned Slade, Smith, mocks people for criticising Farrell's "ad libbing", and squarely blames the gameplan for ignoring overlaps.

It's pretty transparent - you can't bring yourself to admit he was garbage, and you immediately look for scapegoats and excuses. For someone who's not missed a chance to question Smith's international aspirations over the past few months it's pretty telling that when faced with Faz putting in a really shitty display in almost every aspect that you can't actually provide direct criticism of him.

Even when pushed you can only blame "the blueprint".

I think he was shit, if that helps. He follows gameplans to the nth degree and given everyone else grubbered when given the opportunity it is pretty bloody obvious that was the plan. You pile in bizarrely hard to exceptionally vanilla criticism of Smith (I didn’t even mean it as criticism), not everything needs to be ramped up to 11

Well, unlike you I'm happy to criticise Smith for fucking it up (and for trying way too fucking hard in general) - but I saw your post as an obvious attempt to create the narrative regarding the gameplan that you're currently adhering to. It's not Owen shitting the bed, it's the gameplan that's wrong. I'd be saying exactly the same thing if you and Toga had pointed to literally any other player doing what Smith did, because what Smith did is not what was going wrong, nor what the complaints are about. You might as well point to JVP kicking it on the halfway line off a turnover - a good decision! well executed! - as justification/defence for Farrell repeatedly putting boot to ball in dangerous positions and doing a dreadful job of it. It's just not the same thing at all!

Add in his bombing of a try, his 50% goalkicking, his racking up of missed tackles, his total absence of a running threat, and his inability to pick a pass that isn't "shovel it to Ollie" and it really was a dreadful showing from a guy who is in red hot form for his club, is England captain, has a billion caps, and has no excuses whatsoever. He needs to improve on that massively if he isn't going to be a huge problem for England in the immediate future. He's meant to be a point of difference. It's incredibly frustrating watching someone who is clearly a talented player but who has performed like this at 10 for England far too many times get free pass after free pass.

[Kawazaki]

Yeah, I read this forum and think to myself, "Geez, Farrell always gets a free pass from any criticism every time he plays. Weird"

Jesus wept

[JM2K6]

Yeah, I read this forum and think to myself, "Geez, Farrell always gets a free pass from any criticism every time he plays. Weird"

Jesus wept

That's weird, I haven't seen Farrell play 10 for England for a long time before today. Maybe even pre-NotPR.

And outside of this forum, people repeat the mantra that he is a world class flyhalf. Which is also weird, because his history at 10 for England (and the Lions!) is mixed at best, and there's an awful lot of dodgy displays there. And he is absolutely superb for Saracens.

[Kawazaki]

I don't think Farrell played as well as he can and he did kick too many grubbers but overall he was ok. Made some good tackles, particularly in scramble defence mode, some very good territory kicks, played very flat which helped Lawrence break the line when he took the ball.

I don't think the scoreline would look any different with Smith starting.

[Margin__Walker]

Comfortable win, which was what was required, but boy that was a dull watch at times. Bit of a Leicester performance. Functional, the starting pack did well, but really not anything to get excited about and a step down in quality and entertainment compared to the other two games at the weekend.

Had to laugh at OHC spending the best part of two games failing to get the ball in any space and Arundell wanders onto the pitch and instantly receives a walk in on the same wing.

When's George Ford coming back in? I''ll take him thanks Borthers.

[Dragster]

Comfortable win, which was what was required, but boy that was a dull watch at times. Bit of a Leicester performance. Functional, the starting pack did well, but really not anything to get excited about and a step down in quality and entertainment compared to the other two games at the weekend.

Had to laugh at OHC spending the best part of two games failing to get the ball in any space and Arundell wanders onto the pitch and instantly receives a walk in on the same wing.

When's George Ford coming back in? I''ll take him thanks Borthers.

Ford fighting it out with smith on the bench.

[notfatcat]

I was a bit disappointed with Farrell bearing in mind he trains and plays at fly half for 40 weeks of the year.

[Raggs]

Why are we dropping JVP? I know Mitchell ran sideways and popped a pass off nicely, but looking sharp in the final 20 is always a lot easier than looking that sharp for the previous 60. Though JVP was just fine.

[Punter15]

The difference between the more expansive games that Ireland, France and Scotland played this weekend and the tight forwards orientated spectacle served up by England felt painful to watch. They should be so much better and more dangerous than they are, but seem happy to play by the numbers and have gone back to playing not to lose rather than going owing out to win. It’ll come, but it’s uninspired right now.

All the debate about a proper 12 is moot without a desire to use the backs.

[spike]

Why are we dropping JVP? I know Mitchell ran sideways and popped a pass off nicely, but looking sharp in the final 20 is always a lot easier than looking that sharp for the previous 60. Though JVP was just fine.

On my part it's due to a desire to introduce attacking threat in the backs. Although that may be just because Farrell offers so little. JVP is ok (made a few errors today IIRC), but Mitchell on a short showing deserves a look also. He certainly did not freeze like Robson, and looked like he wasnt afraid to veer from a gameplan, looked confident.

[Paddington Bear]

JVP provides very quick service from the base of the ruck and snipes, not sure what he’s not offering that we are looking for. Not his fault he isn’t Dupont

[JM2K6]

Agreed. He's been a bit shaky overall but was fine today and we know he's a real threat, he showed some of it again

[spike]

Mitchell created a try on debut. Made no errors I think. He deserves to get more game time. Nothing like healthy competition to boost performance.

[sockwithaticket]

Mitchell created a try on debut. Made no errors I think. He deserves to get more game time. Nothing like healthy competition to boost performance.

Why are you bringing up the 2021 Tonga game?

Mitchell certainly deserves more opportunity and should be the back up ahead of Youngs, but I don't think he really did much to suggest he should replace van Portvliet as the starter.

[Raggs]

Mitchell created a try on debut. Made no errors I think. He deserves to get more game time. Nothing like healthy competition to boost performance.

Yes Mitchell deserves more chances, but replacement scrum halves always have more chance to shine. Keep Mitchell on the bench so he can keep pushing the pace in the final twenty.

[Oxbow]

Mitchell created a try on debut. Made no errors I think. He deserves to get more game time. Nothing like healthy competition to boost performance.

I'm a Saints fan but I would still start with JVP at the moment, Mitchell is the ideal kind of player to come off the bench. He (and Quirke, and JVP) should all have had more game time but for Eddie's insistence on letting Youngs continue to stink up the place.

[JM2K6]

My main issue with Mitchell is he falls off hard in the second half of matches an awful lot. So bench for him makes sense.

[RodneyRegis]

I was a bit disappointed with Farrell bearing in mind he trains and plays at fly half for 40 weeks of the year.

Ooo, that's cold.

[MrMojo]

Smith trying to create something from nothing with a kick through out wide in the last minutes isn't quite the same thing as repeatedly blowing attacking opportunities by kicking the ball into the dead goal area or straight to defenders, but I see we have the narrative now

It’s not so much the narrative as the blindingly obvious. You don’t have to defend everything he does.

You can’t read anything into his cameo either way, particularly with the centre pairing he had.

He just seemed panicked in everything he tried and just got in the way.

[JM2K6]

[JM2K6]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/64620248

John Barclay with some hard truths here. Christ, those kicks look even worse in replay. The one where he's 10m out with numbers and kicks it for... Jamie George

Even the one that didn't look too bad early on would've been much better if we had just passed to the guys running the hard lines and not the kick to the corner.

[spike]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/64620248

John Barclay with some hard truths here. Christ, those kicks look even worse in replay. The one where he's 10m out with numbers and kicks it for... Jamie George

Even the one that didn't look too bad early on would've been much better if we had just passed to the guys running the hard lines and not the kick to the corner.

It's a head scratcher. I've no idea what they were thinking.

[sockwithaticket]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/64620248

John Barclay with some hard truths here. Christ, those kicks look even worse in replay. The one where he's 10m out with numbers and kicks it for... Jamie George

Even the one that didn't look too bad early on would've been much better if we had just passed to the guys running the hard lines and not the kick to the corner.

I quite like Barclay speaking about England. Rarely do I think he's unfair to us as some pundits from other nations can be, but nor does he mollycoddle his criticism as many English pundits do.

[Margin__Walker]

It was absolutely infuriating watching it.

Time after time with stupid, low percentage kicking options in their half off decent ball.

[Random1]

Few thoughts going through my head:

Pack; Willis obviously had a stand out game, and thought chessum went well. He made a few yards and seems to have a good engine.

Line out was spot on for our ball - Ludlum took more than I was expecting and thought he was decent in general.

However, feel we’re poor at challenging on opposition line out ball. I’m assuming we’re concentrating on our drills at the mo, and I wonder whether this is just an example of sacrificing deep analysis and practice on the other team in order to increase minutes spent on more basic elements, such as catching a slade pass or two.

Scrum felt dicey too, but to be honest, the ref didn’t give me much confidence he knew what the fuck was happening at scrum time, so we could have won or lost more of the 50:50s with a different guy in charge.

Was really pleased for dormbrant. He’s a good player and he had a good game.

OHC was pretty anonymous again. Think arundel should be given a crack.

Best thing of all though was Lawrence. He was a worthy MoM, and I loved seeing how much it meant to him at the final whistle. 12 has been a problem for a while - to have a decent solution is a big step and one that Eddie would never have arrived at.

Overall - I went into the match worried, and ultimately I now feel fairly flat. It could have been worse. I could have been depressed, so I’m just going to take the win and hope we beat the Welsh, as hopefully some extra time on the training pitch will help.

[Ovals]

More a feelinng of relief, rather than elation at getting the win.

Overall it was much better than last week. Line Out was excellent and the mauling was very effective - two huge parts of a successful team.

Willis was immense, and Lawrence was just what the Doctor ordered.

Dombrandt had a really good game, carried well and managed to hold on to the ball this week. With Ludlam and Willis, it's a terrific Backrow.

Chessum improved on his decent showing last week and Itoje looked more like his old self.

Defence was streets better and we were winning the collisions, often forcing their attacks a long way back.


Still kicked far too much good ball away in their 22 - we were literally screaming at the TV in frustration - The Italians probably couldn't believe their luck to keep getting the ball back without a fight. Not only were we missing potential try scoring opportunites, we only had to keep the phases going and Italy were giving up penalties.

With all the 'go forward' ball we never seemed to unleash the backs and left our wings feeding off scraps.

We looked a different, far worse, side as we unloaded the bench - the replacemnt forwards just aren't cutting it. Cole may shore up the scrum but both he and Mako are too slow now - Isiekwe is meh.

Mitchell looked sharp and Arundell popped up in the right place to grab his try.


All in all - a much better platform for the coaches to work with and for them to be more ambitious in the future. The jury is still out on Farrell !!

[iarmhí]

I didn't think the performance was that amazing . They did what they had to do with the opposition that was in front of them.

I think the championship decider could be in Dublin last weekend.

England are going to push on now and improve every game.

[petej]

It was absolutely infuriating watching it.

Time after time with stupid, low percentage kicking options in their half off decent ball.

The frustrating thing is we will never see Lawrence or Kelly at 12 with Smith or Ford. At which point stick with Farrell at 10 and accept he is a coaches dream because he sticks to the plan regardless of situation. Making Farrell captain is a big mistake. The kicks are good when you have an advantage or off poor ball. The inability to get our back three players involved was depressing.

For Smith it is a bit sad. Trying too hard. If post world cup Farrell continues he should go to France for a couple years.

[Paddington Bear]

It was absolutely infuriating watching it.

Time after time with stupid, low percentage kicking options in their half off decent ball.

The frustrating thing is we will never see Lawrence or Kelly at 12 with Smith or Ford. At which point stick with Farrell at 10 and accept he is a coaches dream because he sticks to the plan regardless of situation. Making Farrell captain is a big mistake. The kicks are good when you have an advantage or off poor ball. The inability to get our back three players involved was depressing.

For Smith it is a bit sad. Trying too hard. If post world cup Farrell continues he should go to France for a couple years.

The grubber works as one of:
- pure opportunism. 15/sweeper not there/mismatched forwards in defence
- keeping a defence ‘honest’ who are pushing 15 up into the line
- the killer blow after a number of phases

We achieved keeping them honest very early but then just persisted with something that we didn’t collect once. Hopefully it goes back in the locker