Wayne Smith Hates Driving Mauls

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Niegs
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Birds of a feather, so do I. :cool:

I think the first comment nails it, though. If progress is halted once, then must use it. Kinda odd that law ever allowed a re-start.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/3 ... aul-banned
OPINION: This is a polite plea from Wayne Smith to World Rugby. Please, please, please abolish the driving maul. It is a blight on the game. It is against the very essence of pure rugby. It does not allow a fair contest for the ball. And it is a crashing bore.

If the Black Ferns had lost that Rugby World Cup final, then Smith could never have spoken out as he is doing now. It would have sounded like sour grapes, and a man who enjoys a glass of fine red wine as much as Smith has a very healthy dislike for sour grapes. But because the Ferns won, Smith may talk freely.

Smith, aka the Professor, says: “I don’t like the driving maul as part of the game. There are six or seven forwards in front of the ball. There is no access to the ball. It is legalised obstruction. I would get rid of it entirely. You could do it very easily by changing the laws so that if the attacking team chooses to kick a penalty to touch inside the 22, then the other team gets the throw in.”

How wonderful it would be if World Rugby had the cojones to implement ‘Smith’s Law’ before this year’s men’s World Cup in France. Was it any coincidence that four years ago the final was contested by South Africa and England, the two best mauling sides in the competition? Was it any coincidence that the England women’s side went on a record-breaking unbeaten run underpinned by the rolling maul?


Last year’s Super Rugby was dominated by the Blues and the Crusaders, the two strongest mauls. Moana Pasifika, new, vibrant, but less organised, were buried beneath the rubble of those mauls. And the tactic has clearly become a turnoff for viewers as TV figures continue to plummet.


We saw the nadir of all of this at the weekend when England beat Italy 31-14. That looks like a dominant performance, but the scoreline was an illusion. Italy had six clean breaks to England’s four and they beat twice as many defenders.

But, as their Kiwi coach Kieran Crowley observed: “We didn't have an opportunity today because England pushed us out of it.”

That was very polite of Crowley. He might equally have said that Italy didn’t have an opportunity because the New Zealand ref James Doleman pushed them out of it. And this again is a huge problem with the rolling maul. Rugby is a very hard game to referee, and when refs become dogmatic on marginal decisions, then those penalties can lead to scarcely-earned tries for teams with a strong rolling maul.

It is hard to think that Doleman was not swayed by the crowd of 81,609 people inside Twickenham. That is entirely understandable. He is human after all. But it is all the more reason why rugby needs to reduce the power of the refs.



Each of England’s five tries came directly or indirectly from rolling mauls. All five of those mauls were piggy-backed on penalties. Three of those penalties were extremely dubious and two should have probably gone the other way.

But Doleman had taken a position. He had decided, wrongly, that England had a significant power advantage despite the fact that when there was scrum stability early on, it was Italy who surged forward. When Italy did make significant stops of the driving maul, they were not properly rewarded. Even the position of the ‘gate’ seemed to alter depending on whether you were wearing a white shirt or a blue shirt.

There is also the problem of the yellow card. Two Italians were sin binned for interventions at a rolling maul. One, the young No 8, was sent from the pitch on a matter of timing. The other, a replacement prop, was binned even though Doleman had awarded a penalty try. That’s double jeopardy.

It’s a nonsense. American football is the sport to watch if you want legalised blocking, but this is blocking and evasion that has been choreographed over a century. And even the NFL is likely to outlaw the quarterback sneak next year because the attacking side has an unfair advantage.

There was one ghastly moment in the match between England and Italy when a beautiful try was cancelled for an ugly score. Max Malins had bamboozled the Italian defence with a lovely show of the ball and a burst of acceleration, but the try was called back because an England player far from the ball had inadvertently tripped an Italian. Really? So we went back for a penalty, and beauty became the beast. England scored instead from a driving maul.


It is hard to think that World Rugby really wants another World Cup final when one side scores four tries from rolling mauls. But it says it all when a contender for the New Zealand’s favourite sporting moment at the Halberg Awards is the moment when Joanah Ngan-Woo stole England’s lineout at the end of the women’s final as they went for yet another crunching maul.

And in many ways it was a beautiful moment. Assistant coach Whitney Hansen and others had worked to put together a video of the cues for the England jumper. And at the supreme moment Ngan-Woo picked the cue and got onto her lifters to get the hoist right.

Ngan-Woo said: “When fans tell me what it meant to them and where they were and how crazy it was, that's pretty cool, hearing that. It's an unusual play to have become a big moment. Having put the work in as a lock, how cool is it to see a piece of skill like that be so celebrated?

“It's crazy, because lineouts to me are my bread and butter. That sort of lineout is what we do every single day. That's what we do for our warm-up. To have the moment nominated for the Halberg award is just amazing. I'm just happy. It was something that I love to do. Lineouts are the best.”


Yeah, crazy good. But it is telling that we are celebrating a ‘defensive’ moment. It is telling that it is a greater piece of skill to stop the maul, than to rumble that hidden ball over line. Creativity can take a back seat.

There was a funny moment during the Guardian’s live commentary on the England v Italy game when the writer tapped out: “There was an England penalty later in the phase and from the lineout England run a beautiful first phase pattern to… only joking, it’s a catch, drive and penalty try after Ferrari collapses the maul.”

Yes, the driving maul has become a bad joke. Some of its origins were beautiful in the late ‘70s when the Beziers side of Raoul Barriere turned the rolling maul into an art form. But now the paint has faded.

There was a dancer out on the Twickenham pitch on Sunday who reminded me of Christian Cullen. Ange Capuozzo, the diminutive Italian fullback, is a joy to watch, a splash of colour, of fast feet, and intuitive angles and blazing pace. But for large parts of the game he was an irrelevance, the dazzling sun in the Azurri sky blocked out by the cancel culture of the driving maul.

Is that really what we want rugby to be?
sockwithaticket
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Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:58 pm Birds of a feather, so do I. :cool:

I think the first comment nails it, though. If progress is halted once, then must use it. Kinda odd that law ever allowed a re-start.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/3 ... aul-banned
I've long been an advocate of this. A well set maul can make tons of ground on a first movement, a good defence of a maul can push it way the hell back. The former is already reward enough for the team in possession, the latter should reward the defence by forcing the opposition to make the ball more contestable again by going into phase play.

The article's largely shite, though. Smith's idea of the throw going against the team to whom a penality was awarded if kicked to touch from inside the 22 is absolutely mental. Gives teams even more license to infringe rather than legally defend phase play.
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Raggs
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I'd be fine with only a single shove being allowed, but removing it entirely? Bollocks to that.
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Niegs
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sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:06 pm
Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:58 pm Birds of a feather, so do I. :cool:

I think the first comment nails it, though. If progress is halted once, then must use it. Kinda odd that law ever allowed a re-start.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/3 ... aul-banned
I've long been an advocate of this. A well set maul can make tons of ground on a first movement, a good defence of a maul can push it way the hell back. The former is already reward enough for the team in possession, the latter should reward the defence by forcing the opposition to make the ball more contestable again by going into phase play.

The article's largely shite, though. Smith's idea of the throw going against the team to whom a penality was awarded if kicked to touch from inside the 22 is absolutely mental. Gives teams even more license to infringe rather than legally defend phase play.
Yeah, I thought "For someone called 'The Professor', that's not a well thought-out idea!"

My half-joking idea of going back to no boosting would be better, I think (but it'll never happen). You still get the throw, still can catch-and-drive, but much harder to win it. So maybe tap and run or kick for goal? Won catch-and-drives then are more thrilling, not half of all tries scored.

... but as-is, along with no re-starting the shove, I'd also do away with the 'same maul' interpretation whereby truck-and-trailer is basically allowed because the defence has supposedly withdrawn. Often, it's more because the attacking team has sheared off or wheeled out. Tell the attacking team to use it right away, pass or runner must break off.
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Sandstorm
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Raggs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:09 pm I'd be fine with only a single shove being allowed, but removing it entirely? Bollocks to that.
If only a single shove is permitted, then you have to remove the ability to "early sack" the maul from a lineout - otherwise it's too easy for the defending team.
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Sandstorm
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Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:38 pm
My half-joking idea of going back to no boosting would be better, I think (but it'll never happen). You still get the throw, still can catch-and-drive, but much harder to win it.
Go watch some pre-1995 Rugby and you'll see how diabolically shit lineouts were pre-boosting. It's just a bunch of blokes slapping the ball back untidily to the poor scrumhalf.....who gets smashed in the head by 3 forwards charging through the line.

And with the focus around head injuries, that won't fly today.
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derriz
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Sandstorm wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:41 pm
Raggs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:09 pm I'd be fine with only a single shove being allowed, but removing it entirely? Bollocks to that.
If only a single shove is permitted, then you have to remove the ability to "early sack" the maul from a lineout - otherwise it's too easy for the defending team.
I don’t see a problem with that. The Attacking team is forced to commit enough bodies to get the maul moving forwards or else get the ball to the scum half straight away. The two stops thing is bollox especially with the inconsistencies around what constitutes a stop.
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Raggs
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derriz wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:28 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:41 pm
Raggs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:09 pm I'd be fine with only a single shove being allowed, but removing it entirely? Bollocks to that.
If only a single shove is permitted, then you have to remove the ability to "early sack" the maul from a lineout - otherwise it's too easy for the defending team.
I don’t see a problem with that. The Attacking team is forced to commit enough bodies to get the maul moving forwards or else get the ball to the scum half straight away. The two stops thing is bollox especially with the inconsistencies around what constitutes a stop.
That's what frustrates me the most. Some refs give a side a good 10 seconds to even get it moving, ignoring any step back during the "setup", and don't call once. As soon as the maul is formed, it should be expected to be moving forwards, if not, then it's once.
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LoveOfTheGame
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No. :thumbdown:
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Enzedder
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Sandstorm wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:46 pm
Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:38 pm
My half-joking idea of going back to no boosting would be better, I think (but it'll never happen). You still get the throw, still can catch-and-drive, but much harder to win it.
Go watch some pre-1995 Rugby and you'll see how diabolically shit lineouts were pre-boosting. It's just a bunch of blokes slapping the ball back untidily to the poor scrumhalf.....who gets smashed in the head by 3 forwards charging through the line.

And with the focus around head injuries, that won't fly today.
They';ll do it once and then have a 10 minute sit-down. Even a forward isn't that thick to keep doing that
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JM2K6
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Massively fucking lame. What is this, 2002? Fuck off Wayne.
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Niegs
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Enzedder wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:53 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:46 pm
Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:38 pm
My half-joking idea of going back to no boosting would be better, I think (but it'll never happen). You still get the throw, still can catch-and-drive, but much harder to win it.
Go watch some pre-1995 Rugby and you'll see how diabolically shit lineouts were pre-boosting. It's just a bunch of blokes slapping the ball back untidily to the poor scrumhalf.....who gets smashed in the head by 3 forwards charging through the line.

And with the focus around head injuries, that won't fly today.
They';ll do it once and then have a 10 minute sit-down. Even a forward isn't that thick to keep doing that
What really impresses me from some footage I've seen is how quickly some tall bloke knocks it down with two hands and then the wee fella scrambles to get it, firing a bullet pass to the FH sometimes with a reverse pass. Obviously not always, but I love some of the SH work from that era. (The other one I love is forwards decking the ball or rolling it back for the SH to pick up and fire away without having to dig. It's a wonder we don't see that any more with pros having so much more time for training!)

But, yeah, no one's going to be dangerously taking out a SH more than once. The risk of not getting one's own ball back on the throw would rule out most pen lineouts anyway.
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EnergiseR2 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:48 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:46 pm
Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:38 pm
My half-joking idea of going back to no boosting would be better, I think (but it'll never happen). You still get the throw, still can catch-and-drive, but much harder to win it.
Go watch some pre-1995 Rugby and you'll see how diabolically shit lineouts were pre-boosting. It's just a bunch of blokes slapping the ball back untidily to the poor scrumhalf.....who gets smashed in the head by 3 forwards charging through the line.

And with the focus around head injuries, that won't fly today.
Perfectly described. Ball would flop at some mad angle backwards and while the scrumhalf scrambled some fat bastard would mill him out of it. It was always ugly
Which bit here is meant to be a bad thing?
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Paddington Bear
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Cockers absolutely on the money here:
Generally the teams that moan about the maul are the teams that aren’t very good at it
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Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:35 pm Cockers absolutely on the money here:
Generally the teams that moan about the maul are the teams that aren’t very good at it
That makes zero sense in the context of Wayne Smith.

How about…

“Generally the teams that defend use of the maul are the teams that aren’t very good at other facets of the game.”
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Ymx
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I’ve got to say, I’m really a lot less worried about it since we have Jason Ryan as our forwards coach. He has the ABs stopping the opposition maul in its tracks.
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Ymx wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:25 pm I’ve got to say, I’m really a lot less worried about it since we have Jason Ryan as our forwards coach. He has the ABs stopping the opposition maul in its tracks.
Crusaders have had rolling mauls scored against them during his tenure. Or are you really stating "He's from Christchurch, so he is Godly"?
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Ymx
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Enzedder wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:58 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:25 pm I’ve got to say, I’m really a lot less worried about it since we have Jason Ryan as our forwards coach. He has the ABs stopping the opposition maul in its tracks.
Crusaders have had rolling mauls scored against them during his tenure. Or are you really stating "He's from Christchurch, so he is Godly"?
Wrong forum. I was purely admiring what he did with the All Blacks. No need to twist it like that.

Plus. Don’t you go being blasphemous old man, or he will send more rain!
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Grandpa
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Enzedder wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:58 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:25 pm I’ve got to say, I’m really a lot less worried about it since we have Jason Ryan as our forwards coach. He has the ABs stopping the opposition maul in its tracks.
Crusaders have had rolling mauls scored against them during his tenure. Or are you really stating "He's from Christchurch, so he is Godly"?
2016 the last time apparently... I remember them mentioning it during the All Blacks commentary last year...

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Uncle fester
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Nah. Need to tie the forwards up a bit.
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Uncle fester wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:12 pm Nah. Need to tie the forwards up a bit.
A couple of hundred metres of paracord would do the trick
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Grandpa wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 pm
Enzedder wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:58 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:25 pm I’ve got to say, I’m really a lot less worried about it since we have Jason Ryan as our forwards coach. He has the ABs stopping the opposition maul in its tracks.
Crusaders have had rolling mauls scored against them during his tenure. Or are you really stating "He's from Christchurch, so he is Godly"?
2016 the last time apparently... I remember them mentioning it during the All Blacks commentary last year...

Facts, schmacts ... (if they are true) It's not all about Ryan though and no matter what YMX says, he wouldn't be posting that if Ryan wasn't ex-Crusaders.
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Guy Smiley
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I'm a pretty hardcore Crusaders fan and I had no idea YMX was as well.

I've never picked up any full on 'Sader bias from him. In fact, the only poster in here who does push a provincial bias like a squeaky old wheelbarrow is you Enz, and Gumboot when it comes to hating on them.

Everyone else just sort of gets on with it.
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Gumboot
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Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:24 am I'm a pretty hardcore Crusaders fan and I had no idea YMX was as well.

I've never picked up any full on 'Sader bias from him. In fact, the only poster in here who does push a provincial bias like a squeaky old wheelbarrow is you Enz, and Gumboot when it comes to hating on them.

Everyone else just sort of gets on with it.
Really? News to me.
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Guy Smiley
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I know... revelation can be a difficult time.
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Gumboot
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Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:23 am I know... revelation can be a difficult time.
How about you provide a few examples of me hating on the Saders then. Enlighten me.

Edit: Are you sure you haven't confused me with someone else?
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Guy Smiley
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Gumboot wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:38 am
Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:23 am I know... revelation can be a difficult time.
How about you provide a few examples of me hating on the Saders then. Enlighten me.

Edit: Are you sure you haven't confused me with someone else?
Nah. We had an exchange about this last year. My perception is you reserve an extra degree of criticsm for Sader's based players. Off the top of my head, I remember you laying into Havili and Mo'unga a few times when whatever it was they'd flunked hardly set them aside in a team that was collectively misfiring. Sorry for the vagueness, I don't take notes.

In fairness, I think some of this type of reaction is generated by the profile and success of the franchise. I think you've used the term 'hype' about certain players to justify your criticsm at times... which sits at odds within the context of our discussions in here. I know the media do what they do and it's a tedious pain in the arse but I think we generally avoid that sort of thing and discuss with good intentions.

Again, in fairness... it occurs to me now that perhaps your criticsms of the Crusaders' players provides balance for my rabid dislike of anything Barrett.
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Gumboot
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Okaay... well I've always assumed that your OTT anti-Barrett stuff was largely tongue in cheek, as has been any anti-Sanders rubbish I may or may not have spewed over the years. I'll happily concede that I've heavily criticised Havili. Ennor, too, and Fainga'anuku. But that's because I don't think they cut it as test players; nothing to do with their franchise. You might have noticed that I'm also hardly reserved in my opinions on the deficiencies of Caleb Clarke, Tuivasa-Sheck, Christie, Laulala, Akira, ...and of course, my all-time favorite punching bag, Patrick Tuipulotu.
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Guy Smiley
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Gumboot wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:50 am Okaay... well I've always assumed that your OTT anti-Barrett stuff was largely tongue in cheek, as has been any anti-Sanders rubbish I may or may not have spewed over the years. I'll happily concede that I've heavily criticised Havili. Ennor, too, and Fainga'anuku. But that's because I don't think they cut it as test players; nothing to do with their franchise. You might have noticed that I'm also hardly reserved in my opinions on the deficiencies of Caleb Clarke, Tuivasa-Sheck, Christie, Laulala, Akira, ...and of course, my all-time favorite punching bag, Patrick Tuipulotu.
Yeah, fair enough and on that last, I think we can all heartily agree :lol:
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Gumboot
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:thumbup:
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Ymx
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Love this place.

This exchange would not have ended up, with apologies and thumbs ups at the other place.

👍🤣

Now off to the bingo, I mean wordle thread.
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MungoMan
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Re driving mauls: I gave one a lift to the shop a few years back. Complained the entire time and never said Thanks.

They can get fucked.
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Grandpa
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Gumboot wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:50 am Okaay... well I've always assumed that your OTT anti-Barrett stuff was largely tongue in cheek, as has been any anti-Sanders rubbish I may or may not have spewed over the years. I'll happily concede that I've heavily criticised Havili. Ennor, too, and Fainga'anuku. But that's because I don't think they cut it as test players; nothing to do with their franchise. You might have noticed that I'm also hardly reserved in my opinions on the deficiencies of Caleb Clarke, Tuivasa-Sheck, Christie, Laulala, Akira, ...and of course, my all-time favorite punching bag, Patrick Tuipulotu.
You criticising my beloved Blues? Yeah fair enough, that lot are all mediocre... :thumbup:

By the way.. am missing your avatar drawings...
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Tichtheid
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The maul will be part of rugby for as long as the scrum is part of rugby. It's a similar test of strength and technique.

I've lost touch with the upside down teams, I followed Super Rugby for years, adopting The Highlanders seemed logical for an Edinburgh fan - they had one disappointing season after another, then they won it! We had John Hardie and Nasi Manu come up to Edinburgh, of course, Manu never quite got a run of fitness and Hardie, to use a boxing metaphor, used to lead with his chin, he was mental.

I haven't seen much since a year before lockdown etc, and I don't know if many or any of the players are still in Otgao from that time. I assume the Crusaders will still be strong, what are the predictions for the season?
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There are six or seven forwards in front of the ball. There is no access to the ball. It is legalised obstruction.
Bit like a scrum. And a ruck.
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Grandpa
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Mahoney wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:28 am
There are six or seven forwards in front of the ball. There is no access to the ball. It is legalised obstruction.
Bit like a scrum. And a ruck.
Though with them the laws are reffed in a more balanced way with regards to attack and defence. With the maul, the attacking side gets away with murder because refs don't police it correctly... why?
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Mahoney
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Rucks are refereed in a way that has at best a passing relationship with the laws.

The primary difference / problem with scrums is that they are much more inherently unstable than mauls - it's nigh on impossible to drive a scrum more than about 5 metres without it collapsing
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Rhubarb & Custard
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Two Italians were sin binned for interventions at a rolling maul. One, the young No 8, was sent from the pitch on a matter of timing.
If nothing else from the opinion piece I was amused by this description of taking out the legs of the jumper by driving early.
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Guy Smiley
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Mahoney wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:36 am Rucks are refereed in a way that has at best a passing relationship with the laws.

The primary difference / problem with scrums is that they are much more inherently unstable than mauls - it's nigh on impossible to drive a scrum more than about 5 metres without it collapsing
There’s an argument for that being due to the scrum being more of a fair contest for the ball, as opposed to the maul..

Which is not.
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Ymx
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Did Enz just zap his post about hating all Crusader fans?
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